your all over complicating the problem. Without access to the capital their is no supplies. Test it by surrounding a capital and see if there armies get fed.
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Already done (see #12, #14 and #16, above). The enemy forces will starve.
For the records, without unnecessarily repeating everything, we did our own MP test with Germany/Poland and came to the following results.
Surrounding the capital and NOT capturing it is fatal to the country unless it can breakout. Regardless of how the supply system works, surrounding the capital will starve the entire defending countries army to death in a month or two.
Attacking and capturing the capital seriously hurts the country (loss of all supplies,resources and money stockpiles etc) but the country can fight on. Some units may go out of supply badly until new supply routes kick in, but that is how it should be, should it not?
So from a MP rules point of view, surrounding a capital without capturing it until the enemies army of totally out of supply would seem bad games manship.
Surrounding the capital and NOT capturing it is fatal to the country unless it can breakout. Regardless of how the supply system works, surrounding the capital will starve the entire defending countries army to death in a month or two.
Attacking and capturing the capital seriously hurts the country (loss of all supplies,resources and money stockpiles etc) but the country can fight on. Some units may go out of supply badly until new supply routes kick in, but that is how it should be, should it not?
So from a MP rules point of view, surrounding a capital without capturing it until the enemies army of totally out of supply would seem bad games manship.
Also we looked for and found no evidence of supplies being built at or distributed from IC locations. All supplies produced appeared in the encircled capital.
Under normal conditions supply/fuel is distributed, but with the capital surrounded no. It could be a huge exploit.
We are trying to convince everyone in our MP game that this is the case.
IRL a nation doesn't send all its supply/fuel to one location, nor would it if that location were surrounded. A nation would set up different supply/fuel sourcing. The supply system doesn't work this way and I think house rules should reflect this reality.
I have discovered the true supply deployment equation. Its Effective IC connected to the capital(land or sea path)/supply units produced per day. So if you sorround a capital a new stockpile is created but the IC produces and deploys only to the capital.
So sorrounding a capital and not taking it single handedly kills the nation, logistical bombing is a completely seperate point that does the same overall effect. I see enormously great potential in this find so I thank the OP and CHarles immensely in showing this bug to me. If your playing a game where you really want a challenge but your allies or the third faction in your game is decimating your primary enemy, simply tag that nations capital with rebel provinces for a while tilll they start losing again. Works like a charm on china when its beating japan and USSR after germany starts to fall back. This only works on capitals without a port.
Yes, known issue and we label it as exploit in our MP games.
If you can't take capital yet, leave at least 1 province coridor for supply flow.
If you can't take capital yet, leave at least 1 province coridor for supply flow.
It certainly looks like supply system is not working as I would have expected it to when the capital gets surrounded.
But based on a test I have run it's not as simple as "surround capital - all supply runs out"
I picked a savegame from where Germany has taken france and is fighting Russia. AFter surrounding capital, the supply point changes to Hamburg and after 30 days most units start to suffer supply issues. But interestingly some don't. After running test for further 4 months there are still units getting full supply and others a smaller percentage.
TEsting started on Feb 16 1942 - using the apply REB to provinces around Berlin
Here is PIC showing an armoured division on southern france more than 3 months after capital surrounded. You can it's supply is almost zero but it still received 41% of what it needed the previous day.
Here is same Division a week later - it got 58% on last day so supply is reaching it in a trickle still.
At the same time this port province received 100% of its requirements - this is still 3 months after surrounding capital.
So a further 6 weeks later - making it 4 1/2 months after surrounding capital this unit near Bonn has full supply.
Two weeks later and zoomed out the same unit has full supply and you can see further evidence of supply map mode where supply is still flowing.
I Haven't run this longer yet - I'll do a longer test soon but it is suggesting to me that there is still supply being drawn that isn't coming from the capital. Mind you, I would have expected it work more like all units getting some supply rather than some getting all their supply. Anyway I'll report back what I find.
But based on a test I have run it's not as simple as "surround capital - all supply runs out"
I picked a savegame from where Germany has taken france and is fighting Russia. AFter surrounding capital, the supply point changes to Hamburg and after 30 days most units start to suffer supply issues. But interestingly some don't. After running test for further 4 months there are still units getting full supply and others a smaller percentage.
TEsting started on Feb 16 1942 - using the apply REB to provinces around Berlin
Here is PIC showing an armoured division on southern france more than 3 months after capital surrounded. You can it's supply is almost zero but it still received 41% of what it needed the previous day.
Here is same Division a week later - it got 58% on last day so supply is reaching it in a trickle still.
At the same time this port province received 100% of its requirements - this is still 3 months after surrounding capital.
So a further 6 weeks later - making it 4 1/2 months after surrounding capital this unit near Bonn has full supply.
Two weeks later and zoomed out the same unit has full supply and you can see further evidence of supply map mode where supply is still flowing.
I Haven't run this longer yet - I'll do a longer test soon but it is suggesting to me that there is still supply being drawn that isn't coming from the capital. Mind you, I would have expected it work more like all units getting some supply rather than some getting all their supply. Anyway I'll report back what I find.
There will be supply all over the country when a capital is surrounded. It is my expectation that it is this left over supply that is maintaining those troops that are receiving limited supply. I expect the game hasn't run long enough to consume all supplies outside of the capital once it was surrounded. Its worth noting that the units that you found to be in supply, or a 2 brigade garrison devision and a headquarters, both of which draw very limited supplies and are also very far away from other units consuming supply. If any units would be the last to run out of supply, it would be these.
Another expectation of mine, is that the stockpile of supplies for that unit near Bonn, should be decreasing, this is easy to check. Indeed stockpiles all over the map should be steadily decreasing. This isn't particularly hard to check.
The premise remains that all new manufactured supply will appear at the Capital.
I really wish you would have run this test with us or accepted the invitation to participate in the tests we ran. Instead of this, back and forth.
Another expectation of mine, is that the stockpile of supplies for that unit near Bonn, should be decreasing, this is easy to check. Indeed stockpiles all over the map should be steadily decreasing. This isn't particularly hard to check.
The premise remains that all new manufactured supply will appear at the Capital.
I really wish you would have run this test with us or accepted the invitation to participate in the tests we ran. Instead of this, back and forth.
@happyman40: excellent test, but as BattleMoose notes it can take a very long time for the supply situation to stabilize. You also need to know that there are anomalous provinces that produce supply for no apparent reason. Bonn will produce 3.15-supply daily (it has since 1.4), Jablonow (in Poland) can produce anywhere from 3-32 supply, Merech can produce 8.52-supply and Vichy will produce 3.46-supply. These types of provinces exist in numerous places (including India, Korea and many in the Mid. East), and I'm still in the process of trying to find them all. Granted, what I have listed doesn't have the numbers you are indicating, but they will give the appearance of "some" supply flow.
So after testing further it is obvious there is more going on than just a simple wall around the capital - at least in this German experiment. Mileage may vary with other nations I suppose.
Firstly I thought it would be interesting to look at the Total supply tooltip - you would expect this amount to keep growing over time if no supply was going anywhere other than total stockpile.
But as you can see - time moved on a week and the amount went down - in the test the total stockpile kept varying around 50K.
Southern French units are still in complete supply in November - this is 9 months after Capital blockaded so it can't be residual.
And here's a central Germany View showing streams of supplies provinces - I don't know what the mechanic is I can just see that cutting the capital off doesn't cause all supply to stop flowing.
Interstingly - turning off all convoys made no difference to France supply situation and more interestingly - I wasn't able to create new resource or Supply convoys!!!
I'm going to play with that in a later test but I think we can safely say there is more to how supply works or doesn't work than is obvious.
Firstly I thought it would be interesting to look at the Total supply tooltip - you would expect this amount to keep growing over time if no supply was going anywhere other than total stockpile.
But as you can see - time moved on a week and the amount went down - in the test the total stockpile kept varying around 50K.
Southern French units are still in complete supply in November - this is 9 months after Capital blockaded so it can't be residual.
And here's a central Germany View showing streams of supplies provinces - I don't know what the mechanic is I can just see that cutting the capital off doesn't cause all supply to stop flowing.
Interstingly - turning off all convoys made no difference to France supply situation and more interestingly - I wasn't able to create new resource or Supply convoys!!!
I'm going to play with that in a later test but I think we can safely say there is more to how supply works or doesn't work than is obvious.
@happyman40: just out of curiousity are any Axis minors hooked into the German supply net?
I thought so. You can see the excess flow (light blue) running into the demand lines (light brown) in your pics. I've never tested with allies hooked to my supply net, but this will throw things off.
Happy:
From your tooltip, it shows that Germany isn't actually manufacturing supplies, well, 0.07 to be precise. But is trading lots of supplies, both exporting and importing. Seeing as Germany isn't manufacturing supplies, its not too surprising that the stockpile in Berlin is decreasing. Consumption exceeding manufacture, 0.07 manufacture and the units in Berlin using 0.82. Perhaps the supplies you are trading for are being received by Marseilles, Nice or Cannes and don't magically appear in the capital. I would check your trade routes and see where those traded supplies are being received.
Either which way, I would cancel all trade agreements for supplies and actually manufacture supplies to test, where manufactured supplies go. If you do this, I would expect firstly the unit in Southern France to go out of supply and the supply store in Berlin to skyrocket.
Once we have figured that out, we can go and test exactly what happens to traded supplies and where and how those are handled if indeed they are handled differently.
From your tooltip, it shows that Germany isn't actually manufacturing supplies, well, 0.07 to be precise. But is trading lots of supplies, both exporting and importing. Seeing as Germany isn't manufacturing supplies, its not too surprising that the stockpile in Berlin is decreasing. Consumption exceeding manufacture, 0.07 manufacture and the units in Berlin using 0.82. Perhaps the supplies you are trading for are being received by Marseilles, Nice or Cannes and don't magically appear in the capital. I would check your trade routes and see where those traded supplies are being received.
Either which way, I would cancel all trade agreements for supplies and actually manufacture supplies to test, where manufactured supplies go. If you do this, I would expect firstly the unit in Southern France to go out of supply and the supply store in Berlin to skyrocket.
Once we have figured that out, we can go and test exactly what happens to traded supplies and where and how those are handled if indeed they are handled differently.
Germany has production full on supplies - all trade routes had been cancelled already.
The plus 50 odd supplies should over time equal an ever increasing stockpile - except that the HQ in berlin is 0.82 per day
@BattleMoose: since he has allies it is possible the "invisible" trade system is still functional.