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Developer Diary 19 – Crusades

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King said:
Is there any limit to your stupidity? Where do you think the holy order troops come from? It is a handy abstraction for arrival of fresh volunteers from Europe. Secondly if you had bothered to learn to read, in the real first crusade the Duke of Lower Lorriane takes it all and keeps it for himself. Which is exactly what CK2 allows to happen.
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If this was CK, you'd have 0 in diplomacy.

Duke of Lower Lorraine beating the Moslems alone? And you have yet to show mechanics that the crusades will be organized.

Ok, he's going to buy hordes of mercs and order troops, but that doesn't cover the fact that he had several allies with him, including hordes of volunteers from all of Western Europe, ranging from peasant to nobles. And allies are only through family as far as you have yet revealed. And how will Peter the Hermit's peasant crusade be handled?

Overall, with the information you have given yet, the chance of Godfrey becoming king of Jerusalem is zero.

I sincerely hope you have either made the AI for crusades very good or made some mechanisms we have yet to hear. For a game named Crusader Kings, the crusades already seem to be very poorly handled.
 
King said:
Since only direct vassals of the Emperor of Duke rank and above inside the Kingdoms of Germany and Bohemia can vote on the Emperor we disqualify emperors from creating (but not conquering) kingdom titles due to a rather obvious exploit.
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So anyone who holds enough provinces can just go and proclaim themself king without petitioning a fons honorum or any other diplomatic maneuvering?
 
King said:
Of course. The Byzantine Emperor has the Ecumenical Patriarch (head of the Orthodox church) as his vassal and the HRE has the King of Bohemia as his vassal in later dates. It is possible for the Holy Roman Emperor to have the Pope as his vassal. So if you want to put the Holy and the Roman back into you empire and you just happen to have an anti-pope kicking around, well you know what to do.
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:blink:

You mean I spent all that time being Emperor and I could have ended the Papacy's independence two days before Skyrim came out? I thought it was a damn bug when it happened and ended that game. :laugh:

King said:
Since only direct vassals of the Emperor of Duke rank and above inside the Kingdoms of Germany and Bohemia can vote on the Emperor we disqualify emperors from creating (but not conquering) kingdom titles due to a rather obvious exploit.
Click to expand...

This explains my last game as Provence-->Burgundy/Italy. And it makes perfect sense, too.

King said:
The religious head must be independent so as long as the Emperor reigns they cannot.
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Wow! I've been playing the preview version and I didn't know any of this! :eek: :laugh:

Since you appear to be in an answering mood, King, would you might clarifying something for me?

Any independent religious head may call for Crusade, right? So, if the Patriarch manages somehow to become independent, Orthodox crusades are a possibility. Ditto for other major faiths. What about heretical movements? If you are a heretic, it appears that you haven no religious head at all. Does that mean heretics are never capable of doing religious head actions (crusades, annulment, and so on)? Is there a way to make a heretic head of the faith to enable such options? (Like, could the Byzantine Emperor revoke the Patriarch Title and give it to a Monophysite from Abyssinia or something crazy like that?) Could the King of Sicily embrace Lollard, create a Lollard anti-Pope and win a war to place the Lollard anti-Pope in the head of religion position?

In other words, if Europe descends into a mess of heresy because the Moral Authority of the Roman Catholic Church was reduced to zero (3 human players backed anti-Popes for years until the authority got that low or some other similar messy situation), will heretics find themselves able to "win" a protracted struggle to control their faith and then still do the things that a head of the faith could do?

And if holy wars are possible against heretics, will the Pope ever call for a specific crusade against heretics?
 
King said:
Your question is stupid because it completely ignores the reality of the crusade. Not one of the major crusade leaders was a landless second son. The leaders of the first crusade were as follows:

Duke of Lower Lorriane - King of Jersualem
Count of Tarranto - Prince of Antoch
Count of Toulouse - Count of Tripoli
Duke of Normandy - Got nothing for some reason.

Only the County of Edessa was founded by a second son, but hell he was with his brother the Duke of Lower Lorriane. I wish people would do some basic research on this matter before demanding we add features to the game in the name 'historical reality'. Godfrey essentially destroys the Duchy of Lower Lorriane by his policy of mortgaging so many of the lands to pay for his contingent to the crusade. It is not difficult to see why the first crusade signaled the effective end of the Duchy of Lower Lorraine when you put it in that context. However, people continue to ignore these really obvious facts in favour of peddling myths.
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Godfrey was de facto king of Jerusalem, but he refused the royal title and instead used the title defender of the Holy Sepulchre.
Lower Lorraine indeed started to fragment, however the houses of Limburg (Ardennes) and Brabant (Leuven (Reginar)) still desired the title and the dukes of Brabant kept and used that title (as Lothier/Lothryk) until the French revolution. Furthermore it was Frederick Barbarossa, who finally gave the final 'blow' and turned it into a titular dignity, the current holder the count of Leuven was created duke of Brabant over the territories in his control. So in part it also fits in the policy of Frederick Barbarossa, who also reorganized other parts of the empire. The struggle between the Hohenstaufen and Welfs lead to the old Stem duchies of Bavaria and Saxony being split and instead smaller territorial duchies were created like Bavaria, Austria, Styria, Saxony, Westphalia....

King said:
Since only direct vassals of the Emperor of Duke rank and above inside the Kingdoms of Germany and Bohemia can vote on the Emperor we disqualify emperors from creating (but not conquering) kingdom titles due to a rather obvious exploit.
Click to expand...

hmmm I guess that in most start situations the emperor also holds the titles king of Italy and king of Burgundy. However towards the end of the game they perhaps shouldn't have Burgundy, since fewer emperors actually bothered to be coronated as such and France controlled more territory.
So if the duke of Bohemia is elected emperor, he can't promote himself, which seems fair; but he won't be able to promote someone else, like Henry VI did when he gave the Lord of Cyprus a royal crown.
Will it be possible to create the kingdom of Cyprus or will there be a crusader event for this?
 
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Looks very good! One question about the Holy Orders and land, though... If they're given land by a ruler, do the number and quality of holdings affect how powerful/large the mercenary companies available to their liege are? (I guess that's assuming that you still hire their troops through the mercenary/Order screen rather than calling them as levies -- is that the case?) For example, if I want exclusive rights on hiring the Templars, is there any incentive for me to give them rich and strategically important holdings so they're more useful to me, or do they offer the same troops if they have a single holding in a poor, tucked-away corner of my realm? Hopefully I'm not misunderstanding the mechanics here.
 
Secret Master said:
:blink:

You mean I spent all that time being Emperor and I could have ended the Papacy's independence two days before Skyrim came out? I thought it was a damn bug when it happened and ended that game. :laugh:



This explains my last game as Provence-->Burgundy/Italy. And it makes perfect sense, too.



Wow! I've been playing the preview version and I didn't know any of this! :eek: :laugh:

Since you appear to be in an answering mood, King, would you might clarifying something for me?

Any independent religious head may call for Crusade, right? So, if the Patriarch manages somehow to become independent, Orthodox crusades are a possibility. Ditto for other major faiths. What about heretical movements? If you are a heretic, it appears that you haven no religious head at all. Does that mean heretics are never capable of doing religious head actions (crusades, annulment, and so on)? Is there a way to make a heretic head of the faith to enable such options? (Like, could the Byzantine Emperor revoke the Patriarch Title and give it to a Monophysite from Abyssinia or something crazy like that?) Could the King of Sicily embrace Lollard, create a Lollard anti-Pope and win a war to place the Lollard anti-Pope in the head of religion position?

In other words, if Europe descends into a mess of heresy because the Moral Authority of the Roman Catholic Church was reduced to zero (3 human players backed anti-Popes for years until the authority got that low or some other similar messy situation), will heretics find themselves able to "win" a protracted struggle to control their faith and then still do the things that a head of the faith could do?

And if holy wars are possible against heretics, will the Pope ever call for a specific crusade against heretics?
Click to expand...

no you cannot, if you are a lollard you have no pope so cannot appoint an anti-pope. I don't have a copy of the game in front of me so I don't know the exact logic but since your holy war CB works against the heretics there is nothing stopping the Pope doing so.
 
Ruwaard said:
hmmm I guess that in most start situations the emperor also holds the titles king of Italy and king of Burgundy. However towards the end of the game they perhaps shouldn't have Burgundy, since fewer emperors actually bothered to be coronated as such and France controlled more territory.
So if the duke of Bohemia is elected emperor, he can't promote himself, which seems fair; but he won't be able to promote someone else, like Henry VI did when he gave the Lord of Cyprus a royal crown.
Will it be possible to create the kingdom of Cyprus or will there be a crusader event for this?
Click to expand...

The Emperor holds no Kingdom title due to succession issues. The Kingdom of Italy would be voted on by Duke vassals in Italy while the HRE is voted by duke vassals in Bohemia and Germany thus the titles quickly divide if we had them. No way to create the Kingdom of Cyrpus in game.
 
Bballman23 said:
Looks very good! One question about the Holy Orders and land, though... If they're given land by a ruler, do the number and quality of holdings affect how powerful/large the mercenary companies available to their liege are? (I guess that's assuming that you still hire their troops through the mercenary/Order screen rather than calling them as levies -- is that the case?) For example, if I want exclusive rights on hiring the Templars, is there any incentive for me to give them rich and strategically important holdings so they're more useful to me, or do they offer the same troops if they have a single holding in a poor, tucked-away corner of my realm? Hopefully I'm not misunderstanding the mechanics here.
Click to expand...

No the holdings troops are seperate to the merc troops.
 
Filip de Norre said:
If this was CK, you'd have 0 in diplomacy.

Duke of Lower Lorraine beating the Moslems alone? And you have yet to show mechanics that the crusades will be organized.

Ok, he's going to buy hordes of mercs and order troops, but that doesn't cover the fact that he had several allies with him, including hordes of volunteers from all of Western Europe, ranging from peasant to nobles. And allies are only through family as far as you have yet revealed. And how will Peter the Hermit's peasant crusade be handled?

Overall, with the information you have given yet, the chance of Godfrey becoming king of Jerusalem is zero.

I sincerely hope you have either made the AI for crusades very good or made some mechanisms we have yet to hear. For a game named Crusader Kings, the crusades already seem to be very poorly handled.
Click to expand...

There are no mechanics what so ever for crusades to be organised individual rulers make the decision on their own. The crusade target encourages AI countries to go.
 
So in summary: Crusades haven't been improved at all from their underwhelming mechanics in CK1, despite them being one of the most important features in the game, and an opportunity for all kinds of fun events and character interactions.

Paradox does it again!

Thank god for modability.
 
Kaleidoscope said:
So in summary: Crusades haven't been improved at all from their underwhelming mechanics in CK1, despite them being one of the most important features in the game, and an opportunity for all kinds of fun events and character interactions.

Paradox does it again!
Click to expand...

In summary we made decisions in how the crusades were improved. We made our choices based upon what we felt was important and what we felt we could realistically achieve in the development time. It wasn't enough for you and at the end of the day there is nothing I can do about that. You can post as much as you like about this but there is nothing you can do to change that decision.
 
Hmm, if the duke of lower Lorraine conquers Palestine and proclaims the kingdom of Jerusalem, he'll be a vassal king of the HRE?
 
King said:
There are no mechanics what so ever for crusades to be organised individual rulers make the decision on their own. The crusade target encourages AI countries to go.
Click to expand...

That's at least something. And with the casus belli being in "de jure duchies" it will prevent dozens of different independent factions to have land. How will the "indenpendence" of the crusader states be handled? If the Duke of Lower Lorraine become king of Jerusalem would he still be vassal of the Emperor?

Sorry, didn't see that was already answered
 
Hopefully we'll see a patch like we did in CK1, where territories far away from their liege will realize the relationship is less than beneficial to them and shall become independent. At least, I vaguely recall some patch in CK1 adding that.
 
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