werent people complaigning about the europeans not invading the america's not long ago?
[Beta Mini-AAR] Failure for Württemberg: A Flagland V2:AHD AAR
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werent people complaigning about the europeans not invading the america's not long ago?
I'd like to remind people that what happened in this game does not happen in every game. Sure, there should be certain things that should be less likely or more common or the reverse. But that's how it is when you make a game where you try to maintain some level of sandbox gameplay.
Sure you can argue that 'wouldn't France, Russia or the UK be pissed at Prussia for controlling Jutland, because essentially gives Prussia an important foot into controlling the sailing into the Baltic, which Russia certainly wouldn't prefer and may we remind you that in 1864, each of the three times Denmark suggested incorporation into the German Confederation, Prussia refuses on fear for the international reaction on such a step?' Sure. That makes historical sense. But maybe in this alternate history, Prussia is lead by people who either doesn't know or doesn't care.
The AI in Paradox games are certainly opportunistic, we all know this. But at the same time, just because Jutland is Prussian in my game, doesn't it mean that is the case for every playthrough. Podcat noted himself that he has never seen the division of South America that way.
Sure you can argue that 'wouldn't France, Russia or the UK be pissed at Prussia for controlling Jutland, because essentially gives Prussia an important foot into controlling the sailing into the Baltic, which Russia certainly wouldn't prefer and may we remind you that in 1864, each of the three times Denmark suggested incorporation into the German Confederation, Prussia refuses on fear for the international reaction on such a step?' Sure. That makes historical sense. But maybe in this alternate history, Prussia is lead by people who either doesn't know or doesn't care.
The AI in Paradox games are certainly opportunistic, we all know this. But at the same time, just because Jutland is Prussian in my game, doesn't it mean that is the case for every playthrough. Podcat noted himself that he has never seen the division of South America that way.
Historically there shouldn't be a war over schleswig until 1848 and that one should end in defeat for prussia. But in general the 'war of unification' cassus belli is nonsense. It should have to be manufactured/gained by event like the others.
Also, ingame Jutland has no effect on access to the Baltic, so why would the GPs care about a non-existent issue? Jutland is just a state like any other, and from the AI or the player's PoV it's an easy state to take as Prussia.
Why?
We make a sandbox type game, modders "fix" it to be more historical. We make a historical game, modders "fix" it to be less deterministic. Not everyone likes the same level of open-ness/historic pathing and not all games are the same, so there are always people who want to mod it the other way. It's great that mods can do this, but it doesn't mean they're fixing the game, just changing it.
(Despite the quotes this is more a general reply than aimed specifically at the people I quoted)
Either Austria or Prussia takes schleswig in the first year no matter how many times I've loaded up the starting scenario. Prussia doesn't always take Jutland, sometimes it takes iceland as well. That varries. But schleswig always being taken at a ahistorical time doesn't help the sandbox/divergent nature of the game at all.
Historically both schleswig wars were provoked. Alsass-lorraine was only taken when Prussia won a war France started. Having a free cassus belli to take those states for no infamy really makes no sense from a simulation perspective, though it isn't so bad in the second case since france has a good enough military that nobody ever declares war to take it and germany almost never forms.
Bismark himself wondered if Alsass-lorraine was a step too far and that he should have been content with dominating germany.
Yes, both Schleswig wars were provoked by Denmark, when Denmark made certain changes to their constitution that extended its jurisdiction over the Duchies. You can easily write some events/decisions for Denmark that will trigger these casus belli for Prussia. The war with France was provoked by Prussia; Prussia provoked France into declaring war on Prussia.
Bismarck didn't wonder, he knew. He objected strongly to the annexing of Alsace-Lorraine, but Wilhelm II of Prussia wanted it, because the Germans wanted it. Bismarck knew it would create an Achilles' heel in the German Empire between Germany and France.
Of course it's okay that Prussia takes Jutland - sometimes. The problem in vanilla, was that it happened every single time (unless you played Denmark and slapped Prussia around).
The AAR of course provides no proof that it happens in every game, but (obviously) it does not provide prove of the opposite either, so I continue to hope.
The AAR of course provides no proof that it happens in every game, but (obviously) it does not provide prove of the opposite either, so I continue to hope.
yeah... but not really Prussia. Just Bismarck. I mean king tried to avoid this war.
Sorry for off-topic, but it's just so interesting. I've read about the war, but could somebody explain why Prussia could not form Germany after the war with Austria? NGF was formed, Baden, Wurttemberg and Bayern to that point were completely pro-unification, as I understand, because they joined after the war. Why everybody needed this war?
I know that war was something that both Bismarck and France wanted, but wouldn't it be better to form Germany and only then go to war?
I write Flagland comments. So at times I pretend countries act like hiveminds.
The Second French Republic was very unkeen on the idea of a strong Germany and blocked any attempt by Prussia to incorporate Baden, Württemberg and Bayern into the German Realm. Baden, Württemberg and Bayern, as you might imagine - due to their proximity to France - relied on France for trade, etc. It has gone so far that France had discussed that a united Germany would upset the balance of power established at the Congress of Vienna in 1815, which meant that Russia and the United Kingdom (as well as Austria, despite being deemed outside German affairs in 1866) would have had to join France's side.
So the war was a tool to make France release its blockade of the unification of Germany. The war was not a tool by Bismarck to get Alsace-Lorraine (Bismarck didn't want it), but to ensure a peaceful unification of Germany. And I suppose - albeit perhaps not the first priority - to end the Second French Republic and the beginning of the Third.
Moreover, the same war marked the final unification of Italy with the inclusion of Rome.
Because within the game mechanics it makes perfect sense, to have the AI not do it you would need to code it to make a bad choice. AUS/PRU are both stronger than DEN, they have a free CB due to Union cores, they have no infamy since the game has just started so they may as well add war goals etc.
From a sandbox perspective it should also be possible to stop or delay those events when playing as denmark.
Events may be deterministic but the war of unification cassus belli is even more so in my opinion. At least an event can be given multiple options.
Basically a non-humbled france was never going to let a united germany exist. Balance of power and all that.
After annexing hannover, hesse-kassel, nassau and frankfurt, Prussia was so big that the NGF just meant that the tiny states surrounded by Prussia could still operate. It was just an extension of the north german economic treaties that had existed for ages.
Bismark also wanted a united german empire under a Hohenzollern Emperor. A radically differant germany could have been created earlier but Prussia needed to officially be seen as the protector of germany against foreign aggression before it could be the leader of an empire.
Forming germany before going to war with france wouldn't have helped much since they wouldn't have time to integrate anything more together before france invaded to stop them. Prussia + allies wasn't any differant to the state germany would have been in at the time anyway.
Then its clearly the game mechanics that make no sense.
Denmark had treaties that said it had the right to rule over bits of germany. There's no way breaking those without danish provocation should be infamy free.
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We don't model them. It's a game, not a history simulator. Frankly the last thing we want is to make it harder for the AI to unite Germany.
Taking Jutland is perfectly reasonable, just not historical. I also annex Jutland every time I play as Prussia - in the beginning every war for Prussia is infamy free, so you want to take some infamy. It's coast region, so you get more ports, danish population is high literate, but not really causes rebellions. You're removing land border with country and simultaneously ensuring they could never be strong country, thus securing your holdings from north. And since you already crushing Denmark, why not take one more region?
So I just don't see why NOT take Jutland.
And how you can prevent this annexation? Remove German cores? Forbid Austria/Prussia to declare war?)) But I think Prussia would attack even without cores, because Denmark is the only neighboring country Prussia can attack without consequences.
So I just don't see why NOT take Jutland.
And how you can prevent this annexation? Remove German cores? Forbid Austria/Prussia to declare war?)) But I think Prussia would attack even without cores, because Denmark is the only neighboring country Prussia can attack without consequences.
Maybe this is the problem? Historically Germany had no interest in taking Jutland and shouldn't have one in the game. The population was filled with an entirely homogeneous Danish (except for a a couple of hundred well-integrated Jews and Huguenots), mostly peasant, population who had strong feelings about the new ideals about nationalism, fraternity and democracy. Taking Jutland and not the rest of Denmark (as was proposed) not only makes no sense, it would have also been a diplomatic catastrophe to the balance of power and a political failure resulting in continuous unrest and revolt (the only thing that comes near is 29/8/1943>). In realpolitik-terms there would be economic and political maluses combined with military gains. If the AI thinks this is such a great thing to do, maybe additional factors are needed to "convince" them to reconsider one more time? With the current mechanics Britain and Russia could have a Friendly opinion of Denmark so they can intervene, but even this falls short as a great war over this would be unrealistic.
Taking Jutland is not "perfectly reasonable" if your aim is to have a plausible game but if you're using gamey tactics and you're on your way to WC anyway, sure. So taking a region with none of your ethnicity and further securing your hold over both the North Sea and the Baltic (diminishing Britannia rule of the waves and making a German naval victory in a great war plausible) would have resulted in what in EU3 is called "overextension", in 19th century terms it would have resulted in diplomatic hostilities and possibly war. The UKs #1 priority on the continent was balance of power. If borders changed but no one ended up as a threat or with having undisputed influence over the others, all was good. Jutland is just one of the examples of this where with Schleswig a crisis was only just avoided.
But...the game allows you to merge Greater Germany and the Habsburg Empire within 10 years of the game and then swallow up the rest of the world so this is hardly the most pressing balance concern. It's just a cringe worthy sight to behold every time it is seen, but without more detailed intervention and secret diplomacy mechanics, it will persist unless the setup is thoroughly modded like in PDM.
A future (patch/expansion etc) solution might be to model the importance of straits, and other such pieces of geography - Dardanelles comes to mind - perhaps also increasing the importance of the canals when they are built as well?
That's a really good point, but I'd still love some mechainsm that did not make taking Schleswig harder, but increased the difficulty of taking Jutland (and Iceland & Greenland as well) while you're at it. I have no sensible ideas about what might solve it though.
I think the problem with the current situation is not Prussia but that the other great powers are not acting on the situation. I think Russia should guarantee Denmark at the start of the game, as Denmark and Russia historically had a strong bond.
Here is a quote from wikipedia. I think the sources behind the article are reliable, but I haven't checked
Russia had guaranteed Schleswig to the Danish crown by the treaties of 1767 and 1773. As for Holstein, if the King of Denmark could not deal with the rebels there, he himself would intervene as he had done in Hungary. The threat was reinforced by the menace of the European situation. Austria and Prussia were on the verge of war, and the sole hope of preventing Russia from entering such a war on the side of Austria lay in settling the Schleswig-Holstein question in a manner desirable to her. The only alternative, an alliance with the hated Napoleon Bonaparte's nephew, Louis Napoleon, who was already dreaming of acquiring the Rhine frontier for France in return for his aid in establishing German sea-power by the ceding of the duchies, was abhorrent to Frederick William.
Wikipedia
Here is a quote from wikipedia. I think the sources behind the article are reliable, but I haven't checked
Russia had guaranteed Schleswig to the Danish crown by the treaties of 1767 and 1773. As for Holstein, if the King of Denmark could not deal with the rebels there, he himself would intervene as he had done in Hungary. The threat was reinforced by the menace of the European situation. Austria and Prussia were on the verge of war, and the sole hope of preventing Russia from entering such a war on the side of Austria lay in settling the Schleswig-Holstein question in a manner desirable to her. The only alternative, an alliance with the hated Napoleon Bonaparte's nephew, Louis Napoleon, who was already dreaming of acquiring the Rhine frontier for France in return for his aid in establishing German sea-power by the ceding of the duchies, was abhorrent to Frederick William.
Wikipedia
