About early revenue and customs unions

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VineFynn

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Mar 10, 2012
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I'm wondering whether tariffs (and consumption taxes) should form a larger portion of early-mid game revenue, for two reasons.

The first is that it seems like joining another market seems to be something of a no-brainer- irl trade barriers are indeed bad, but this is a period where markets often had to be opened by force. I would think that you kind of want people to have a reason to preserve their sovereignty in this respect, at the very least for immersion purposes.

The second is that countries probably make a bit too much money as a proportion of their gdp atm. The realism of making tariff and excise taxes less effective before the late game is an easily defended conceit for whatever balancing needs to happen there.

Do people have thoughts?
 
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For what is worth, I never join a customs union and always develop my nation by importing the stuff I need and exporting the goods I am more competitive.

For this reason I always tend to enact free trade and get max ports asap.

What do you define as enough tariffs ?

For example, in my current game the year is 1930 and I have no tariffs (free trade) but my trade centres are helping my economy through improved prices for my buildings and dividends to my POPs. Otherwise with tariffs, trade volume would be lower.

How can we quantify it to compare the money I would be getting from tariffs, knowing that without free trade my routes would be -50% volume, +50% bureaucracy cost and -50% trade competitiveness?

We could say that giving up free trade my trade routes would be at least half of what they are now, thus, silk, glass, wood, furniture, tobacco and opium would have less demand.

In the case of opium, trade routes are 50% of my market demand. If we add up all the GDP from opium produced in Persian incorporated states we get 102K/week or 5.3M/year. If we lose the half of the trade routes is like losing 1/4 of that figure from my GDP = 1.325M/year. If we divide that by 52 weeks we get 25.5K/week lost.

Let's assume that we could extrapolate that to all the other goods by using units, so roughly my total exports = opium x 1.7. We can infer that by losing my free trade I would be losing 43.35K/week or 2% of my GDP.

How much do you make with tariffs as a proportion of your GDP ?

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I'm wondering whether tariffs (and consumption taxes) should form a larger portion of early-mid game revenue, for two reasons.

The first is that it seems like joining another market seems to be something of a no-brainer- irl trade barriers are indeed bad, but this is a period where markets often had to be opened by force. I would think that you kind of want people to have a reason to preserve their sovereignty in this respect, at the very least for immersion purposes.

The second is that countries probably make a bit too much money as a proportion of their gdp atm. The realism of making tariff and excise taxes less effective before the late game is an easily defended conceit for whatever balancing needs to happen there.

Do people have thoughts?
Agree on all points stated, although I do think there's a crucial part of the argument missing.
IRL you wouldn't want free trade (and being in someone's CU is "the freest trade you can have") as an undeveloped nation, because your industries wouldn't be able to compete with cheap high tech import.
At the moment the PMs are balanced the way that this doesn't materialise.
If and when this changes, there will be much more cons to having your market open to a developed major.

I should also add that societal effects of free trade and movement are generally not modeled (some countries just wouldn't be able to maintain stability under disruptive foreign idea influence). Unfortunately, this is now only done as custom JEs for China (since 1.0) and Korea (since 1.7), and a comprehensive mechanics here would also work as a drawback to market sharing.
 
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because your industries wouldn't be able to compete with cheap high tech import.
Staying behind technologies is a choice for the player.

In the game, it only takes to build universities to advance technologies. Choosing the ones that benefit you more by getting the PM necessary to compete with your overlord is easy enough.

Is this realistic? Quite debatable. As you say, this makes tech differences less important but that may change if they introduce something like experience on the job on top of qualifications.

The problem with custom unions is that the player does not control supply enough and by giving up 50-75% of your convoys, you are quite limited to ensure the amount of input goods you need for yourself if the overlord does not provide them.
 
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Have you considered that being in a custom union you are getting a percentage of tariffs depending on your GDP relative to the market? A player active on trade will be losing out on tariffs this way.

1714842864592.png
 
Have you considered that being in a custom union you are getting a percentage of tariffs depending on your GDP relative to the market? A player active on trade will be losing out on tariffs this way.

View attachment 1127830
I think one of the main points of OP was that tariffs are too insignificant (compared to other income sources) for this to matter.
 
I think one of the main points of OP was that tariffs are too insignificant (compared to other income sources) for this to matter.
Yes, but maybe OP was considering it from the point of view of a minor in a customs union.

Tariffs weight to GDP may be reduced compared to a stand alone nation due to this being the case.
 
Yes, but maybe OP was considering it from the point of view of a minor in a customs union.

Tariffs weight to GDP may be reduced compared to a stand alone nation due to this being the case.
I'd argue (OP mentioned that too) that other forms of state income, regular taxes, are too easy and too large.
 
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Yes, but maybe OP was considering it from the point of view of a minor in a customs union.

Tariffs weight to GDP may be reduced compared to a stand alone nation due to this being the case.
I was, but its my understanding that it doesn't really matter for market leaders either because both minors and majors are supposed to rely on taxes anyway.
 
I think that a large issue in treating tariffs as an income source is just how much government input trade requires. You get a fraction of the base cost of the goods, but need to provide bureaucracy and convoys, and if you want to export something - you also lose the good from your market. There's a lot of the times where it just doesn't make sense to invest into trading for tariffs.

Additionally it's pretty hard to get income from export goods. You gotta choose between selling less but getting tariffs, or reducing trade restrictions and trading more, but then how does that even benefit you? Your businesses make more money, but it just goes into pockets of upper strata and isn't taxed for a long time. In case of capitalist owned buildings, they at least invest it into something useful. Maybe with 1.7 there will be a good idea to have some cash crops as government owned plantations for exporting.

To be honest a big issue here is that there's not really an idea of sellers adjusting prices. Take as an example a logging camp - it will buy tools at market price, and sell wood at it. But what happens if tools are in demand and their price goes up? The logging camp willingly takes that loss, it can't say "alright, wood's more expensive now, I got bills to pay", and if the price balance becomes too bad, they'll just start firing workers and closing down. Similarly with trade centers - they can only teleport goods from one market into another, and gotta pay double tariffs on it - usually the price difference is so small, that they really struggle to trade any meaningful quantity of it. If they had to pay for convoys or bureaucracy, suddenly trade would nearly stop, because they are just so unprofitable. A trade center is not allowed to say they are the major contributor to the supply of a good, and as such they will charge more for it, to offset all the costs they have.

Maybe if there was a calculation that a price of a good is weighted and the part that comes from imports is treated as having slightly higher base price, then it would make more sense.
 
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From this article https://files.ehs.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/29061005/Cain29a.pdf we can observe that net customs revenue as a percentage of net import values decreased during the Victorian era.

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It also shows that while indirect taxation was responsible of the majority of taxes at the start of the game, direct taxation took a majority share of taxes at the end of the game.

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If we pick GB at the start of the game:
  • Net customs revenue as a percentage of net import and export values is 12.6K / 163.9K = 7,7% (*)
  • Indirect taxation is 34.1K (consumption taxes and tariffs) or 18% of all taxes
  • Direct taxation is 86.7K (income taxes, poll taxes, land tax) or 46% of all taxes.
If I have not done a mistake and the information in the article is correct, we could say that tariffs in the game are low compared to the historical value and the proportion of indirect vs direct taxation is 0.39 while the historical value was 2.0. Making a case to increase tariffs and/or lower taxes as the OP says.

By doing so, the game will see POPs getting wealthier faster while players will have to rely more in trade and consumption taxes for revenues.

(*) I have calculated all import and export values as the game does not separate customs revenue for imports only. The value has been calculated using British market value of the good not the base value

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what happens if tools are in demand and their price goes up? The logging camp willingly takes that loss, it can't say "alright, wood's more expensive now, I got bills to pay", and if the price balance becomes too bad, they'll just start firing workers and closing down
The mechanics is there though: when an industry downsizes or closes, this lowers market-level output of the industry's produce, thus making its price higher.

Industries do not "make a choice to raise prices", because they do not represent individual firms, but rather an aggregation of firms operating under similar conditions. Price level is set by market equilibriums and just cannot be raised voluntarily, as without a coordinated action the firm that sets prices above the market will just lose all customers.
 
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The mechanics is there though: when an industry downsizes or closes, this lowers market-level output of the industry's produce, thus making its price higher.

Industries do not "make a choice to raise prices", because they do not represent individual firms, but rather an aggregation of firms operating under similar conditions. Price level is set by market equilibriums and just cannot be raised voluntarily, as without a coordinated action the firm that sets prices above the market will just lose all customers.
This is just a byproduct of prices relying only on ratio between supply and demand, it is not what I described. For example it only comes into play if the building is running a loss, and not all the time in response to changes - like wage calculations for example. Now I do not say buildings should do that, I think it's okay with current implementation, and maybe that would be some unnecessary additional complication, but I think specifically for trade it could make sense and expand the mechanic more, making some design decisions, that currently would break the system more possible.
 
For a reference at the end of the game, this is my latest game with Persia at 1933:
  • Net customs revenue as a percentage of net import and export values is 0 (free trade)
  • Indirect taxation is 103K (consumption taxes and tariffs) or 13% of all revenue
  • Direct taxation is 142K (income taxes, poll taxes, land tax) or 18% of all revenue
This relation of indirect/direct taxation is 0,722 compared to 0,93 in 1906-1909 from the article.

My case is an extreme one with very low taxes and no tariffs, but it reinforces the case of reducing taxes and maybe having some small tariffs even in free trade.


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Further reading from old documents: https://open.library.ubc.ca/soa/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/831/items/1.0058366

After enacting free trade with reduced or no tariffs on imports in GB, the income tax was cut from 7d to 2d in the pound (*)
1714996568018.png

(*) 7d is equivalent to 2,9% and 2% is equivalent to 0,83% income tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_Kingdom

The tariff reform movement in Great Britain in 1895-1914 were arguing for high, middle and reduced scales tariffs, although they were not successful implementing them against free traders:
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However, free trade was rather an exceptionalism of GB:
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One major problem to overcome if we want to reduce revenues from income and poll taxes as they were, is construction buildings and ports.

Because both buildings are fully paid by the government and they are required for growth and trade, we will surely strangle many nations at the start of the game if we reduce revenues from taxes.

The way forward would be private construction buildings and trade centers paying for convoys. Players will need to attract foreign investment to kick start their nations.

Will this be a better game as a result? More fun to play? I imagine this will make it less of a management game and more simulation like. Alas, we can only make conjectures as we have not access to the many builds devs have tried for this game.
 
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Agree on all points stated, although I do think there's a crucial part of the argument missing.
IRL you wouldn't want free trade (and being in someone's CU is "the freest trade you can have") as an undeveloped nation, because your industries wouldn't be able to compete with cheap high tech import.
At the moment the PMs are balanced the way that this doesn't materialise.
If and when this changes, there will be much more cons to having your market open to a developed major.

I should also add that societal effects of free trade and movement are generally not modeled (some countries just wouldn't be able to maintain stability under disruptive foreign idea influence). Unfortunately, this is now only done as custom JEs for China (since 1.0) and Korea (since 1.7), and a comprehensive mechanics here would also work as a drawback to market sharing.
the thing is in game the gov held complete control over trade routes, and so even with free trade could just choose not to crash the domestic industry. however, irl people jump in where there's profit, and gov can't really do anything to them other than opting out of free trade. that i think is the most important factor, that the player could directly control trade routes. if something like investment pools/econ laws but with trade could be implemented, it could do the trick.
 
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On release of Vic3 trade had an unfair system, that made trade magic money out of thin air. It would treat assume, that a trade route sold goods at an average of pre-trade and post-trade prices. If a trade route was extremely profitable at the start, it would fuel a large number of trade route levels, as initial income translated into income on every level. So much so, that trade routes could cause an inversion of prices - importing expensive goods from one market, to sell for cheap in another, and make money off of it (as it was even shown on an official screenshot in DevDiary #54). Eventually this was fixed, and trade centers only make money based on post-trade prices, like any other building would. However, all other mechanics around trade stayed the same - the game was balanced with an idea of Trade Centers spawning money, and then it stopped being a case.

It's hard to overstate how hard is it for a trade center to meaningfully make money. Most buildings in this game rely on using labour to transform some input goods, into some output goods, and obviously the collective base price of all inputs is lower than that of all outputs. Some buildings make a killing, some really struggle to stay afloat (for example railways)... Trade Centers are different, as they have no inputs or outputs, they simply teleport goods and make money on the difference, but they have to pay double flat value tariffs, and the more they choose to transport, the heavier they affect prices in both markets, and the smaller the difference between them is in terms of a price. This leads to trade routes rarely making all that much of a good cash, needing subsidizing in terms of removing tariffs and making it basically impossible to introduce any kind of additional cost for Trade Centers (like convoys).

Let's imagine there are two markets and they don't have a trade relation = 0 tariffs on both sides, and there's some good that can be exported, that one market has a shortage of, and the other simply treats as trash - a perfect opportunity for a trade! However, the more of the good is transferred, the more the prices change, and eventually the country that had a shortage will have it cheaper than the exporter. I made a pretty simple graph of how the prices could look like depending on every possible quantity traded. The purple/pink is a figure which total area represents how much money the trade route makes (green area is a negative area, where it actually loses money). Under the old system it would looks something like this:
graf_old.jpg



By taking an average the game treats the price curves as straight lines and creates massive additional areas that magic money out of nothing (of course it can also lose massively, but that's trades we just wouldn't make). It doesn't even have a problem into making more and more levels, well into losing money, if it just means it gets to expand the early profits further and further. Eventually it just reaches a point where it's slightly less profitable to trade more, and stops.

Alternatively we could just pick an average between end points and draw one big rectangle, the resulting area would be the same though. It has one nice property though - shows that extending this rectangle further and further increases width, but only slightly reduces height, probably resulting in an increase of area... even if we know, that at this point the prices have inverted.






If we look at current implementation:
graf_current.jpg





Well... the more it trades the shorter this rectangle will be, and it totally does not care about the "history" of prices. After just a few levels the area would shrunk if we progressed just one level more. This means there might be some really good trade routes, that get stuck on level 1 or 2, just because they'd rather take the money now, than do any more trading and change their profits per a unit of good. But notice how the prices at this point are still significantly different. You can probably find another such exporter and make another lvl 1 route, and another, and another. Sure, this is how every building in Vic3 works, but if we want trade to happen, and for tariffs to make economic sense, it can't be so restricted. Remember - in this case we have 0 tariffs, and we can barely trade, even though Trade Centers have no costs.






So what if we just didn't simply the maths. Trade is already discrete by design, so that calculation would be pretty easy for the computer:
graf.jpg





Now we just say, that at every level the trade route sells X units of goods (the X is traded quantity as defined by the game. In other words - how much would be traded by a level 1 trade route), and the price is just post-trade route upgrade price. So we assume they already made money selling X goods, now the prices dropped and they think about selling another X, and another. Here obviously it continues until price of importer is higher than that of exporter, why? Because there's no tariffs. Introducing them would translate to moving the blue dots a bit down, or red dots a bit up - the trade would then stop just as it stops making money, but earlier than in this case. You can keep introducing new costs, like maybe they need to buy clippers - okay now there's a higher cost to trading and the bars don't just need to be positive, they have a minimum they need to be to make profit.
 
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On release of Vic3 trade had an unfair system, that made trade magic money out of thin air. It would treat assume, that a trade route sold goods at an average of pre-trade and post-trade prices. If a trade route was extremely profitable at the start, it would fuel a large number of trade route levels, as initial income translated into income on every level. So much so, that trade routes could cause an inversion of prices - importing expensive goods from one market, to sell for cheap in another, and make money off of it (as it was even shown on an official screenshot in DevDiary #54). Eventually this was fixed, and trade centers only make money based on post-trade prices, like any other building would. However, all other mechanics around trade stayed the same - the game was balanced with an idea of Trade Centers spawning money, and then it stopped being a case.

It's hard to overstate how hard is it for a trade center to meaningfully make money. Most buildings in this game rely on using labour to transform some input goods, into some output goods, and obviously the collective base price of all inputs is lower than that of all outputs. Some buildings make a killing, some really struggle to stay afloat (for example railways)... Trade Centers are different, as they have no inputs or outputs, they simply teleport goods and make money on the difference, but they have to pay double flat value tariffs, and the more they choose to transport, the heavier they affect prices in both markets, and the smaller the difference between them is in terms of a price. This leads to trade routes rarely making all that much of a good cash, needing subsidizing in terms of removing tariffs and making it basically impossible to introduce any kind of additional cost for Trade Centers (like convoys).

Let's imagine there are two markets and they don't have a trade relation = 0 tariffs on both sides, and there's some good that can be exported, that one market has a shortage of, and the other simply treats as trash - a perfect opportunity for a trade! However, the more of the good is transferred, the more the prices change, and eventually the country that had a shortage will have it cheaper than the exporter. I made a pretty simple graph of how the prices could look like depending on every possible quantity traded. The purple/pink is a figure which total area represents how much money the trade route makes (green area is a negative area, where it actually loses money). Under the old system it would looks something like this:
View attachment 1128773


By taking an average the game treats the price curves as straight lines and creates massive additional areas that magic money out of nothing (of course it can also lose massively, but that's trades we just wouldn't make). It doesn't even have a problem into making more and more levels, well into losing money, if it just means it gets to expand the early profits further and further. Eventually it just reaches a point where it's slightly less profitable to trade more, and stops.

Alternatively we could just pick an average between end points and draw one big rectangle, the resulting area would be the same though. It has one nice property though - shows that extending this rectangle further and further increases width, but only slightly reduces height, probably resulting in an increase of area... even if we know, that at this point the prices have inverted.






If we look at current implementation:
View attachment 1128787




Well... the more it trades the shorter this rectangle will be, and it totally does not care about the "history" of prices. After just a few levels the area would shrunk if we progressed just one level more. This means there might be some really good trade routes, that get stuck on level 1 or 2, just because they'd rather take the money now, than do any more trading and change their profits per a unit of good. But notice how the prices at this point are still significantly different. You can probably find another such exporter and make another lvl 1 route, and another, and another. Sure, this is how every building in Vic3 works, but if we want trade to happen, and for tariffs to make economic sense, it can't be so restricted. Remember - in this case we have 0 tariffs, and we can barely trade, even though Trade Centers have no costs.






So what if we just didn't simply the maths. Trade is already discrete by design, so that calculation would be pretty easy for the computer:
View attachment 1128791




Now we just say, that at every level the trade route sells X units of goods (the X is traded quantity as defined by the game. In other words - how much would be traded by a level 1 trade route), and the price is just post-trade route upgrade price. So we assume they already made money selling X goods, now the prices dropped and they think about selling another X, and another. Here obviously it continues until price of importer is higher than that of exporter, why? Because there's no tariffs. Introducing them would translate to moving the blue dots a bit down, or red dots a bit up - the trade would then stop just as it stops making money, but earlier than in this case. You can keep introducing new costs, like maybe they need to buy clippers - okay now there's a higher cost to trading and the bars don't just need to be positive, they have a minimum they need to be to make profit.

I assume that for game purposes the price elasticity is 1 in all cases. Else, there would be not noticeable price changes, bringing in player frustation.

If we assumed less elastic prices for goods, larger changes of supply would infer less changes of prices, obtaining larger margins.

Could we differentiate price elasticity for traded goods from intra-market goods to allow for greater quantities traded?

For example, for each traded purchase order, the game will only account 1/2 purchase order when calculating the price of the good.

Similar to market acces price impact (MAPI), this modifier will correct supply perception from traded goods. As they are not produced locally and they come from abroad, they are not considered as reliable as local goods, hence the percived reduced supply purchase orders.

This will increase trade profits although the player will need double buy/sell orders from trade to change prices compared to intra-market buy/sell orders.

1715031567330.png



 
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