Ah the arrival of the Mongols, it will be interesting to see if they can take down the Seljuk empire that you've been fighting for so long against.
A Year's Education - Russia Megacampaign, pt. I
- Thread starter unmerged(59077)
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
An excellent update ! The mongols always fascinated me as a child . Their history post-Genghis is also very interesting including how they were basically assimilated by the Chinese after a while . Very cool stuff .
Yay for history! I would say that the Seljuks are doing better than they did historically... but then they were doing better merely to survive to meet the Mongols. Should be an interesting match up.
Replies:
Daemon: the update is here. Time to leave me a comment!
rob nikada: thanks for dropping by! This update I got to do some of my favourite things - a family tree and a dynamic map. Note that while the family tree is the same as IRL, the map itself tells a different story of the Mongol invasions than IRL was. That's why it's important.
TCMT: mongols vs. seljuks is the best thing the Empire in its weakened state could hope for to deal with both. Let's just say they'll do their best to fan the flames of war between the two.
canonized: These Mongols' history is a tad counterfactual, so this isn't a textbook. But the links to wiki can hopefully tell you the accepted story.
ComradeOm: well, it's not exactly history, but i don't expect anyone to know Mongol conquests in such detail as to be able to tell where I deviated. The deviation was important based on the way the Seljuk central Asia looked (i.e. no Kwarazmshahs) and the several attepts it took for Batu and his lot to become a presence in Europe in-Game.
As for the Seljuks: in that version of CK they're nigh-unkillable, plain and simple.
Daemon: the update is here. Time to leave me a comment!
rob nikada: thanks for dropping by! This update I got to do some of my favourite things - a family tree and a dynamic map. Note that while the family tree is the same as IRL, the map itself tells a different story of the Mongol invasions than IRL was. That's why it's important.
TCMT: mongols vs. seljuks is the best thing the Empire in its weakened state could hope for to deal with both. Let's just say they'll do their best to fan the flames of war between the two.
canonized: These Mongols' history is a tad counterfactual, so this isn't a textbook. But the links to wiki can hopefully tell you the accepted story.
ComradeOm: well, it's not exactly history, but i don't expect anyone to know Mongol conquests in such detail as to be able to tell where I deviated. The deviation was important based on the way the Seljuk central Asia looked (i.e. no Kwarazmshahs) and the several attepts it took for Batu and his lot to become a presence in Europe in-Game.
As for the Seljuks: in that version of CK they're nigh-unkillable, plain and simple.
Cliffhanger!
i hate cliffhangers!
But on account of the spiffyness of the update, we will patiently lurk and spam until the next one. In the meantime, i'm not so sure about that professor. :harrumph: Mongols are not interchangeable! They are the apex of cool! (In terms of historical hordes sweeping out from the steppe to teach those pesky farmers and city-folk that nomads are people too [who can kick some world-conquering butt if necessary]!).
And that lecturer is lucky he didn't cast aspersions on the veracity of the true tale of Temujin anywhere near the Khan of Khans!
Ahem. Very grateful for the update.
i hate cliffhangers!
But on account of the spiffyness of the update, we will patiently lurk and spam until the next one. In the meantime, i'm not so sure about that professor. :harrumph: Mongols are not interchangeable! They are the apex of cool! (In terms of historical hordes sweeping out from the steppe to teach those pesky farmers and city-folk that nomads are people too [who can kick some world-conquering butt if necessary]!).And that lecturer is lucky he didn't cast aspersions on the veracity of the true tale of Temujin anywhere near the Khan of Khans!
Ahem. Very grateful for the update.
Great update RGB! I see the Seljuks are filling their role of buffer state nicely. One nitpick, the last date on the map is a typo: it says 1137 when, I assume, it should be 1237.
One nitpick, the last date on the map is a typo: it says 1137 when, I assume, it should be 1237. 
Excellent update. That Mongol map must have taken you forever. It will be interesting to see how the Mongols impact Rome. Batu seems to have almost direct contact with the Russian Tsars, but I think the stark contrast between the Romans in Anatolia and their soon to be new neighbors (the doomed Alanese) will be interesting to watch develop. An empire exhausted by civil strife is perfect pickings for the Mongol hordes, lets hope the Seljuks can regain some ground.
Hmm. I`ve just read three last updates. As for graphical side - you`re getting better and better - I especially enjoyed animated gif maps that you carefully filled with details, as well as illustrations.
As for content - you have described correlation between political/governmental changes, and evolution of military in a very believable and detailed way. Theoretically imperial armies of XIIIth century, with good balance of medium/charging and medium/skirmishing cavalry seems to be ready to face the horde, if not causalities from recent civil war. I think that my previous 'mongol wedge' theory about future of Russo/Roman Empire is correct, given title of recent updates.
Oh and great work on update about Mongols - I`ve found their history quite fascinating, when I studied it while describing their invasion in my own AAR. Of course your writing is by far more ahistorically realistic.
BTW. If you`re still looking for free gif software, try Beneton Movie Gif.
. As for content - you have described correlation between political/governmental changes, and evolution of military in a very believable and detailed way. Theoretically imperial armies of XIIIth century, with good balance of medium/charging and medium/skirmishing cavalry seems to be ready to face the horde, if not causalities from recent civil war. I think that my previous 'mongol wedge' theory about future of Russo/Roman Empire is correct, given title of recent updates.
Oh and great work on update about Mongols - I`ve found their history quite fascinating, when I studied it while describing their invasion in my own AAR. Of course your writing is by far more ahistorically realistic.
BTW. If you`re still looking for free gif software, try Beneton Movie Gif.
I'm apologizing for the delay of part 2. It should have been up yesterday but again, it involves an animated map and 2 very long family trees. So long in fact that I had no space to put any pictures, so many apologies on that as well.
It will probably be up somewhere on Saturday my time.
----------
Replies:
Tskb18: Hehe cliffhanger. But it keeps people coming back now, doesn't it? And yes, I do love when someone's appreciating my rumination-about-education part of the story. Well, apparently the Mongols themselves quite believed in their Secret History so that's all that really matters.
VILenin: Typo: grrrrrr. I can't believe I didn't catch that one. Indeed it should be 1237. Seljuks are a good buffer state but they also have diplomatic savvy, so they won't always be at war to the death.
Estonianzulu: Maps do take a long time but are fun to do. Family trees are just as essential though, and take almost as long, but aren't all that fun to construct. Still, you need them so.
TM: very very glad to have you back, both as a WritAAR and a ReadAAR. I feel that the military description was in fact cut a bit too short at the end...the differences between the Alexandrian army and the Herakleian model could have been explained better and the strategy rather than just the tactics of the Seljuk Wars could have been emphasised. But there's only so much space I have and only so much patience from my readers I can count on.
And yes, thank you enormously for the .gif animator. All the freeware tends to expire eventually. Hopefully this one I can keep.
-----
So yes, update on Saturday. It's a complex 40 years to cover, so hopefully I'll do a good job.
It will probably be up somewhere on Saturday my time.
----------
Replies:
Tskb18: Hehe cliffhanger. But it keeps people coming back now, doesn't it? And yes, I do love when someone's appreciating my rumination-about-education part of the story. Well, apparently the Mongols themselves quite believed in their Secret History so that's all that really matters.
VILenin: Typo: grrrrrr. I can't believe I didn't catch that one. Indeed it should be 1237. Seljuks are a good buffer state but they also have diplomatic savvy, so they won't always be at war to the death.
Estonianzulu: Maps do take a long time but are fun to do. Family trees are just as essential though, and take almost as long, but aren't all that fun to construct. Still, you need them so.
TM: very very glad to have you back, both as a WritAAR and a ReadAAR. I feel that the military description was in fact cut a bit too short at the end...the differences between the Alexandrian army and the Herakleian model could have been explained better and the strategy rather than just the tactics of the Seljuk Wars could have been emphasised. But there's only so much space I have and only so much patience from my readers I can count on.
And yes, thank you enormously for the .gif animator. All the freeware tends to expire eventually. Hopefully this one I can keep.
-----
So yes, update on Saturday. It's a complex 40 years to cover, so hopefully I'll do a good job.
RGB said:
Well, i`m using it for something like a year. It`s free and won`t expire as far as I know.
II
The Blue Horde’s Early Campaigns
The Blue Horde’s Early Campaigns
The Mongols’ initial contact with the Romans was certainly of a hostile nature; they raided the Mescheran princes on the way back from successful conquest of the last Kama strongholds, and in a few years attacked the Alan Tsardom. The Alan Tsardom was certainly less powerful and less independent than its title suggested, being more often seen as an extension of the domains of the Knỳtling Rurikids of Tmutarakan. The Alan capital, Magas, was perhaps a third of the size of Tmutarakan. The Alan Knỳtlings ruled over a mixed state; the nobility was of Russian and Georgian extraction, and the Ossetian speakers were the privileged nation, but the vast majority of the people were Kipchaks, Circassians, or of other Caucasian nations. Greeks, Armenians, Jews and Persians made up a high proportion of the city population and the merchant and artisan classes. If Knỳtling authority failed, the Tsardom would be easy pickings as nothing would be left to hold it together. The Mongols first sent emissaries, but the emissaries, as elsewhere, invariably demanded complete submission and were either sent away, or, more often, killed or imprisoned for such impudence, providing the Mongols with an excuse to attack. The Knỳtlings were no different. David Danilovich, the Alan Tsar, had the messengers whipped and sent back, and immediately sent to his kin, the Tmutarakan prince Yuri Dimitrievich, for assistance. Yuri agreed, despite misgivings, and himself sent a ship to Constantinople asking for help.
The Mongol attack was lead by Berke, brother of Batu Khan, rather than Batu himself. Batu was busy plotting politics against his cousin Guyuk. Berke’s army crossed the borders rapidly, much faster than the Knỳtlings expected and met the opposing forces near a small town called Ak Tobe. The Mongols, after almost a day of skirmishing, enveloped the Knỳtling force and Tsar David decided to retreat. After a hard-fought breakout, the Alan force fled beyond the Terek and started setting up a fortified camp on the southern side of the river. Berke, meanwhile, turned back, and his warriors looted the Alan lands between the Terek and the Itil. After that, he struck south, across the delta of the Terek and into Daghestan, the last remnant of the Baghratid Georgian Tsardom, which fell after a single sharp battle and two roughly week-long sieges. After that, the Mongols turned back, leaving garrison forces and fifty thousand men in their capital at Sarai. The reason for this was the great Kurultai in Karakorum following the death of Khan Guyuk, where through Batu’s influence and alliance with Tolui’s children, Mongke was elected Great Khan, and the line of Ogedei lost all influence in the Mongol government. Mongke immediately granted his brother Hulegu the overlordship of the newly-conquered Seljuk territories as Ilkhan (lesser Khan), affirmed the rights of the three Jochikhanid states to their present territories, and utterly ignored Chaghatai’s concerns over both Hulegu and Shaiban encroaching upon his western domains. Mongke then returned to fighting the Song, and, as promised, both Orda and Batu accompanied him on it. Batu would remain in Mongolia and China to the end of his life in 1255 as the Mongol-Song war turned into a dragged-out, protracted affair. Sartaq was the official ruler of the Blue Horde in Batu’s stead, while Berke wielded considerably more influence due to his age and experience. After the Kuriltai was over, Hulegu raced back to Persia, while Sartaq and Barke returned to Europe to finish what they started.
In 1244 they once again attacked the Alans, defeating the combined Tmutarakan-Trebizond-Alan army and killing Tsar David. Magas was besieged with Yuri of Tmutarakan and Alexei Davidovich of Alan both trapped inside. The city held out for three weeks, then was stormed and a great massacre took place. Although a strong fortress was later re-built at Magas, the town would never regain its former importance. As Berke pressed into remaining Alan territories, Sartaq marched on Tmutarakan. Prince Daniel Yurievich, knowing himself to be surrounded and outnumbered and wishing Tmutarakan to be spared the fate of Magas, surrendered to Sartaq. Sartaq accepted quickly without asking for much more. Prince Daniel would later become close friends with the young Khan, and was perhaps one of the reasons for the conversion of Sartaq into the Byzantine Orthodox church. Tmutarakan was the first contact of the Mongol and Imperial cultures, and its influence over the Blue Horde cannot be overestimated. This development displeased Berke very much; Berke was a devout Muslim and had no use for Christian vassals; it is unclear at what point did Berke conspire to remove Sartaq and his line from power, but that he did it in a systematic fashion seems beyond dispute. Next year, Berke lead the attack on the Berenguer Rurikoviches of Meschera himself. After a quick defeat, the Princes offered submission, but Berke would have none of it. All the nobles were killed, and their towns looted. This angered Sartaq, and he had Berke stripped of command, but Batu intervened and orchestrated a reconciliation between the two. When Batu died in 1255, Sartaq became Khan, and together with the Prince of Tmutarakan attacked Seljuk possessions in Georgia, occupying them quickly after a magnificent victory at Pankisi. He is most famous in Georgia for rebuilding churches and founding several of his own; although it must be noted that in typical early Mongol fashion he was a generous patron to the Armenian Church as well, and there are several historical Mosques and Buddhist monasteries in the Caucasus built by his leave. This war was done in coordination with Hulegu’s Ilkhanate; however, in 1256 Hulegu’s forces attacked the Byzantine Empire with whom Sartaq maintained friendly relations, and the alliance between Hulegu and Sartaq was suspended, leading to soured feelings between the two branches which would culminate in the Berke-Abaqa war of 1261-65. In 1258 Sartaq died suddenly, almost certainly poisoned by his uncle. Sartaq’s young brother Ulaghchi was elected the next Khan and died in less then a year, followed by Sartaq’s son Altyn Bayar who would also die before his 17th birthday. In 1261 Berke was made Khan of the Blue Horde, and the pro-Byzantine policies of the Sartaq years were drastically reversed.
Ahh , hmm an interesting development with the friendship there too bad it didn't last for long . Nice pictures by the way . And good grief that family tree is comprehensive XD
Whoaa! Quite surprising turn of events so far. So, Sartaq`s descendants would rule in Russia, Kiev and Bulgaria one day, and be assimilated into local aristocracy? Now, that`s interesting. It will be probably achieved by previous conquest, isn`t it? Or maybe one tatar faction would ally with Rus` to fight other, muslim faction from Persia/Mesopotamia region? Oh, well I would have to wait for another updates to get the answers.
it seems that Mongol politics were very cutthroat, but can one expect anything else from Mongols?
I can see why that family tree took you a while to do
Out of curiosity, is it mostly historical or are the figures CK characters?
Out of curiosity, is it mostly historical or are the figures CK characters?
Seems like the Mongols will insert themselves into many of eastern europes royal dynasties. At least Byzantium's isn't on there! Conflict between Greek and Mongol seems very likely, however.
Was the blue horde historically active in Russian steppes? I have to admit to not knowing too much about the Mongols. Oh, and I love that first pic.
Was the blue horde historically active in Russian steppes? I have to admit to not knowing too much about the Mongols. Oh, and I love that first pic.
canonized: in politics, you know, there aren't friendships, just shared interests. Except sometimes there are friendships, after all, and this one's over.
TM: you know I'm glad to see you that excited, and find out you will, soon enough. But yes, Batu's line descended through daughters (mostly) will insert itself into Rus royalty several times, kinda like in real history, actually.
TCMT: Cut-throat? Yes. And it only gets worse from here.
ComradeOm: I reconstructed the Mongol family tree down to Sartaq's generation, then let them do their own thing. I did gratuitously change the names to be as historical as possible for the later generations though. Christian names appended to Mongol names are often completely my own invention.
EstonianZulu: Just one war?
VladimirIlyich: Blue Horde are Batukhanids, White Horde are descendants of Orda. Blue and White Hordes make Golden Horde (Ulus of Jochi), but it's the "Blue" part of it, centered in Sarai on the Volga that's more commonly known as the Golden Horde (Kipchak Khanate).
The Greeks manage to avoid Mongol princesses for most part, yes.
-------
Update tomorrow evening!
And it also appears that I've been kindly mentioned HERE by ComradeOm, who wrote the fantastically scholarly and nonetheless immensely engaging History of the Papal States, as well as documenting the mildly insidious plotting of Jacques D'Artois
TM: you know I'm glad to see you that excited, and find out you will, soon enough. But yes, Batu's line descended through daughters (mostly) will insert itself into Rus royalty several times, kinda like in real history, actually.
TCMT: Cut-throat? Yes. And it only gets worse from here.
ComradeOm: I reconstructed the Mongol family tree down to Sartaq's generation, then let them do their own thing. I did gratuitously change the names to be as historical as possible for the later generations though. Christian names appended to Mongol names are often completely my own invention.
EstonianZulu: Just one war?
VladimirIlyich: Blue Horde are Batukhanids, White Horde are descendants of Orda. Blue and White Hordes make Golden Horde (Ulus of Jochi), but it's the "Blue" part of it, centered in Sarai on the Volga that's more commonly known as the Golden Horde (Kipchak Khanate).
The Greeks manage to avoid Mongol princesses for most part, yes.
-------
Update tomorrow evening!
And it also appears that I've been kindly mentioned HERE by ComradeOm, who wrote the fantastically scholarly and nonetheless immensely engaging History of the Papal States, as well as documenting the mildly insidious plotting of Jacques D'Artois
Last edited:
Thanks for the info. And congrats on winning the Showcase, it's a much deserved piece of recognition.
VILenin said:congrats on winning the Showcase, it's a much deserved piece of recognition.
Heh, hopefully it will bring more comments in. Comments keep me going.