Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

A Useful Tip I Thought I'd Share

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Crusader Kings II 69869 Bug Reports 19707 User Modifications 10588 Suggestions 5969 Tech Support 6362 After Action Reports
Status
Not open for further replies.
Show only dev responses
I just spotted an infant duke of the Byzantine empire. I invited his regent to my court, gave him a county and a duchy, and assassinated the infant duke.

Cost me 50 gold, a county in Bjarmia (Rus), and the duchy of Bjarmia. I gained a Byzantine vassal duchy plus 5 Byzantine counties.

And a fabricated claim for a mere county I dont even own yet, costing 1200 gold and a year chancellor time, is balanced?
 
First of all, I'm surprised that you guys didn't know that you can freely revoke a title on which you have a claim. It's one of the many reasons it can be dangerous to marry into your liege's family. If your liege inherits claims on your titles, you can be in a big trouble. Note that you have to have at least low crown authority, or you can't revoke titles at all.

But I'm not sure it makes sense to let lieges fabricate claims on vassals. There's already a number of ways for getting a free chance to grab their stuff, I'm not sure you need another one. Although, since it's costly, it might not be a big exploit. After all, once the cost gets to be around 1500 gold, I'm not sure the county is really worth it if it's already held by a vassal...
 
jpr123 said:
But not only are you complaining about the wrong thing, but your arguing your points pretty poorly. If you were complaining about how overpowered inviting claim holders to your court is, then I'd be 100% behind you. But I rather feel this isn't something you would complain about since you strike me as a power gamer who just wants more and more options to "win" the game as fast as possible and most of your problems with the game seem to be things that make it more challenging instead of things that make it too easy.
Click to expand...

You are the one who is arguing pretty damn poor. I posted many bug reports about things that make it easier for me. Check the gavelkind/elective boni topic in the bug forum, or the primary king title vs feudal tax bug.

My primary directive: I want the game to make sense. Both on an in-game level and on a game balance level. And fantastically expensive county claims dont make sense to me. Not if its done for balance while inviting claimant is so ridiculously easy. And especially not coupled to my income.

Coupling income and costs is a downright socialist doctrine, and I hate socialism. Or any kind of forced redistribution of wealth.
 
Lessing said:
I just spotted an infant duke of the Byzantine empire. I invited his regent to my court, gave him a county and a duchy, and assassinated the infant duke.

Cost me 50 gold, a county in Bjarmia (Rus), and the duchy of Bjarmia. I gained a Byzantine vassal duchy plus 5 Byzantine counties.

And a fabricated claim for a mere county I dont even own yet, costing 1200 gold and a year chancellor time, is balanced?
Click to expand...

Read my previous 2 posts for my opinions on that.

Lessing said:
You are the one who is arguing pretty damn poor. I posted many bug reports about things that make it easier for me. Check the gavelkind/elective boni topic in the bug forum, or the primary king title vs feudal tax bug.

My primary directive: I want the game to make sense. Both on an in-game level and on a game balance level. And fantastically expensive county claims dont make sense to me. Not if its done for balance while inviting claimant is so ridiculously easy.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between making the game easier and using bugs. As I've said the game will never make perfect sense because its just a game, therefore game balance and enjoyment come higher in the list of priorities than realism. Once again, its the inviting claimants that's too easy, not the FC's that's too hard/expensive.

Lessing said:
Coupling income and costs is a downright socialist doctrine, and I hate socialism. Or any kind of forced redistribution of wealth.
Click to expand...

Now your getting ideological for no apparent reason. Balancing the game in this fashion isn't actually some esoteric method of trying to indoctrinate people with the idea that socialism is a good thing. Its just game balance. Not that I'm saying I disagree with socialism though, this is the forum for CK2, not somewhere for me to discuss my political views.
 
Last edited:
jpr123 said:
Now your getting ideological for no apparent reason. Balancing the game in this fashion isn't actually some esoteric method of trying to indoctrinate people with the idea that socialism is a good thing. Its just game balance. Not that I'm saying I disagree with socialism though, this is the forum for CK2, not somewhere for me to discuss my political views.
Click to expand...

This is at the root of the problem. There are ways to balance FC without coupling income and costs. The devs chose a way that reeks of something I really really dislike. I complain about it. Cause, action.

And that people think it's ok to pay more for the same thing because you earn more really annoys me. I'm sorry, but that's me.
 
Well if helping poorer countries out by making claims cheaper qualifies as socialism then I'm afraid this must be a socialist game! But for the hundred and twelfth time they aren't actually relatively any cheaper. I can't see many ways that FC's can be balanced better to not be to expensive for small countries but too cheap for big ones without tying income and cost. They chose what they thought was the best method to get the effect they desired i.e. both large and small countries pay the same amount to gain extra land. I really doubt politics ever entered their thought processes when they were thinking about it. Then again Paradox is a Swedish game company and we all know how much they love socialism! :p

But anyway, just because you feel that the mechanic smacks of socialism, isn't a reason to change it in the game. It does what it has to. Its you who has the problem not the game. Either get over yourself or just stop playing. Complaining about something like this on ideological grounds is just ridiculous.
 
Last edited:
Yeah so I think this thread is kinda screaming for a lock now...

-Right winger baffled at the idea of something in a video game being perceived as some kind of socialist indoctrination tool
 
People court the wealthy and powerful.

I'm not going to go out on a limb and suggest that in medieval times the shrewd, wealthy and powerful were able to arrange better deal terms than the shrewd, weak and poor (or even avoid paying a thing), but nowadays I see things work that way in business, politics and everyday life.

A whiff of carrot and a glimpse of stick can go a long way.

I don't miind the cost going up for play balance based on monthly income, but the speed with which claims are generated should increase along with the cost (bigger, more effective operation).
 
Frankly, I'm entirely happy with the claim fabrication process being expensive and unreliable. You are, after all, trying to fabricate legitimacy, to essentially fool people into believing you have it when you really don't (according to the social consensus on what gives a ruler legitimacy). People weren't any more naive in the Middle Ages than they are now, and nobles (who are essentially a born and bred political class) would certainly not be. Getting a claim through trickery, forgery and plain cheating should be an occasional perk, not a regular, reliable way of expanding.
 
Darkrenown said:
If you're a rich king people expect you to throw a better feast than a poor count. Same for tourneys, fairs etc. So it costs more.
Click to expand...

Also, I'd add, every direct vassal gets invited to those events. The higher you are in the system, the more direct vassals you have, so the cost should go up simply from needing to accommodate more people. And when it comes to the Grand Tourney, everyone below you on the feudal food chain should really be able to attend, not just your direct vassals.
 
Lessing is a little foolish equating "socialism" with "redistribution of wealth." sadly too many people in my country don't understand "socialism" is not "communism." sigh...
 
AllThat4Nothing said:
Lessing is a little foolish equating "socialism" with "redistribution of wealth." sadly too many people in my country don't understand "socialism" is not "communism." sigh...
Click to expand...

If rich people pay more taxes (total amount) than poor people for the same kind of government service (police, justice, education, army protection), then that's redistribution of wealth. I come from East Germany, btw. I've seen socialism.
 
Before hitting each other with sticks... one solution making sense and balance the game could be the following :

- The fabricate claim event chance should be granted a modifier depending of the size of the realm. The bigger the realm the harder it is to justify that a land is yours. So if you have a big realm, instead of having 5% chance / year you would have 2.5% chance. With a huge realm : 1% chance. And with a really huge one : 0.5% chance.
All that with a fix cost.

- The invite to court should put the guy independent unless it's in your (or one of your vassal) De Jure area. Or the chance that the guy accept is reduced by the size of your country as he'll be more like a pawn in your realm than an important noble.
 
I don't have a problem with the cost of Fabricate Claim scaling based on income or alternatively: realm size. However, the main complaint about this that I'm reading in this thread is about the RATE at which this cost scales up, and I agree with this. For the fabricate claim mechanic to be balanced it should be of equal utility to counts and kings and other the current scheme it greatly loses utility as your income goes up. And as the primary limitator for FC remains time for event to fire, costs for it exceeding those for building 2 new holdings are unrealistic and unreasonable to me. I endorse the suggestion that there be cap placed on the cost increases. I further think that a decreasing scale should be applied to the cost of FC based on the the amount of time the cancellor has been set to the FC task in a county before the event fired.
 
It only goes up at a fast rate because your income is increasing at a fast rate... If you stayed at 1g p/m whilst owning half the world then claims would still be dirt cheap. I don't see how you can complain about them scaling to much when the cost is relative to your income... It still takes roughly the same time to make the money for a claim when you are small and poor or large and rich. Therefore its not actually any more expensive.

I wouldn't like to see the time the claims took to get increasing with size because then you really are just making them weaker options as you get larger and that seems to be your main complaint at the moment.
 
Last edited:
Scaling one part of the game price mechanism for game balance without fixing the rest of the claim mechanisms...
 
Last edited:
I think the talk of socialism in the game is getting a little off topic here. I don't think the developers put in the increasing cost of claim fabrication and other services because they felt that it accurately described the costs a ruler would have had to pay in the time period to accomplish those tasks. I think, instead, they tied the cost of the services to the realms income to insure that the game continued to be challenging as realms began to make lots and lots of money. I think they choose gameplay over role play in this decision.

The thing with claim fabrication is that a ruler is already constrained in using it as a mechanism to get claims by the time it takes to fabricate claims and that they can only fabricate one claim at a time. I originally mentioned it because, in a game where I had three kingdoms and medium crown authority, I had a very powerful duke that I was trying to reign in (duke of Spoleto, he had gone out and conquered Tunis and additional parts of Africa on his own). I found this a useful mechanism to take not only a dukedom but also a county when I finally got him to rebel.

I like that fabricating claims takes a long time, I like that it is unreliable. I'd rather be charged an ongoing smaller amount as the claim is being fabricated as I think that would better describe the actual costs incurred for fabricating a claim. Then the time it takes to complete the task and the fact that you can only fabricate one claim at a time would constrain both large and small demesne in using claim fabrication as an engine to conquering territory. That approach seems better to me.

Personally, I'd like to see PI change their cost levelling approach and, instead, use other mechanisms to ensure challenge as the player gets stronger. But, for me, this is a really small fly in a large and awesome vat of ointment. This game was more enjoyable and complete on day one than most game releases I have played a year after their release. Any critism of the game mechanism I have should be tempered with the knowledge that I've pretty much been playing this game as much as possible since its release and that PI did an outstanding job with every aspect of it. My two cents
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom
Back