A Fanatic Materialist country will be humiliated simply because synthetic ascension?

[luanmameili[LM]]

Here the opinion of Holy Guardians towards player is -100

Such warning will be triggered if their opinion is worse than -99.

 

[Cleaving3]

Well, they’re fanatic spiritualists, so they REALLY don’t like robots. This is definitely intentional

 

[A Cat]

Actually Synths don't have an internal world, so their is no humiliation. Its actually a teaching moment to keep other nations from committing mass suicide.

 

[ASGeek2012]

It goes the other way, too. Materialist FEs will declare punishment wars against spiritualist empires. Had it happen to one of my vassals in a recent game.

 

[InvisibleBison]

Well, they’re fanatic spiritualists, so they REALLY don’t like robots. This is definitely intentional

Whether or not it's intentional doesn't change the fact that it's bad design. You shouldn't be forced to accept significant penalties or an unwinnable war by completing your ascension.

 

[HFY]

Hilariously, in a recent game I got that humiliation CB and -- in the same month -- acquired the Head of Zarqlon.

So the exact same FE which just humiliated me is now begging to send fleets to serve me.

There should really be some special code for that situation.

 

[BrokenSky]

Whether or not it's intentional doesn't change the fact that it's bad design. You shouldn't be forced to accept significant penalties or an unwinnable war by completing your ascension.

You could always convert to non-fanatic materialist first, or change your ascension plans when you realise that there's a Spiritualist FE.

If your entire game-plan doesn't have to change based on circumstances after empire creation, arguably that's worse game design, surely?

 

[InvisibleBison]

If your entire game-plan doesn't have to change based on circumstances after empire creation, arguably that's worse game design, surely?

Yeah, that's a good point.

 

[Ramidel]

Yeah. It's no different from being a xenophobe and having the Observers politely ask you to stop the slavery and purging. That's what FEs do.

 

[Incompetent]

It goes the other way, too. Materialist FEs will declare punishment wars against spiritualist empires. Had it happen to one of my vassals in a recent game.

What would provoke the Materialists into attacking?

If you're a Fanatic, an opposite ethic FE will get a -40 modifier against you, but that's not enough for war on its own. It's the specific combination of -40 for ethics, -20 for generic dislike of synth empires and -40 extra Spiritualist FE hatred of synths that pushes you into an endless punishment loop.

The other slightly weird one is the Xenophile FE: they get a -40 against Barbaric Despoilers, whereas they don't have a base opinion modifier against outright genocidal civics as far as I can tell.

 

[ASGeek2012]

What would provoke the Materialists into attacking?

If you're a Fanatic, an opposite ethic FE will get a -40 modifier against you, but that's not enough for war on its own. It's the specific combination of -40 for ethics, -20 for generic dislike of synth empires and -40 extra Spiritualist FE hatred of synths that pushes you into an endless punishment loop.

The other slightly weird one is the Xenophile FE: they get a -40 against Barbaric Despoilers, whereas they don't have a base opinion modifier against outright genocidal civics as far as I can tell.

Honestly? I don't know. Since the war dec was on the vassal and not me, I didn't have that insight. The vassal had not made any claims on FE territory as far as I could tell. It was showing up as a punitive war, so the FE was mad about something. Either that or it's a bug.

 

[Ramidel]

The other slightly weird one is the Xenophile FE: they get a -40 against Barbaric Despoilers, whereas they don't have a base opinion modifier against outright genocidal civics as far as I can tell.

Genocidal civics don't get dinged for having the civic. They get dinged for purging.

Barbaric Despoilers are something of an edge case, by contrast - aside from the "slaving" portion, they also need a ding for the fact that they're stealing pops without being the Observers, and they made the civic the problem (though they probably should have instead made Raiding bombardment carry a penalty, maybe it was easier to penalize the civic).

 

[Bloodbat]

Actually Synths don't have an internal world, so their is no humiliation. Its actually a teaching moment to keep other nations from committing mass suicide.

Synths have happiness values

 

[Nevars]

Honestly? I don't know. Since the war dec was on the vassal and not me, I didn't have that insight. The vassal had not made any claims on FE territory as far as I could tell. It was showing up as a punitive war, so the FE was mad about something. Either that or it's a bug.

Subject, especially the one of player do really have rather high opinion of themself so at some point they will just provoke FE whether through claim or just plain insult because they thought they (means you, the overlord) is strong enough to spank FE.

Spoiler: What player's vassal think

 

[NothingToLose]

With the Machine Age, you can be spiritualist machines without having to worry about ethics problems it would previously have created, meaning you could be Fanatic Spiritualists who synthetically ascend, which shouldn't drop you below the Spiritualist FE's threshold to hate you enough to humiliate you. They just won't love you anymore.

 

[Nevars]

With the Machine Age, you can be spiritualist machines without having to worry about ethics problems it would previously have created, meaning you could be Fanatic Spiritualists who synthetically ascend, which shouldn't drop you below the Spiritualist FE's threshold to hate you enough to humiliate you. They just won't love you anymore.

Are you sure? Just because your spiritualist faction doesn't mind it doens't means that spiritualist FE wouldn't tho

 

[Incompetent]

With the Machine Age, you can be spiritualist machines without having to worry about ethics problems it would previously have created, meaning you could be Fanatic Spiritualists who synthetically ascend, which shouldn't drop you below the Spiritualist FE's threshold to hate you enough to humiliate you. They just won't love you anymore.

Machines can't synthetically ascend in Machine Age. It's not clear at the moment whether the Spiritualist FE (or the Materialist FE?) would be bothered by any of Virtuality/Modularity/Nanotech.

You can start as Spiritualist organics who then synthetically ascend, and like you say, the Spiritualist FE won't like it but they won't go berserk. It's a bit awkward but it can be done already, just like Materialists can choose to psionically ascend if they get the appropriate techs. The next version will just make it a bit easier (one fewer tech required).

 

[Rafss]

A long time ago, Synthetic was the absolute best ascension, but also required the most research to get into, thus putting it as a late game thing (around the same time players would fight FEs for their Tech).
I remember many games of around that time and the guaranteed Spiritualist war declaration always came at just the right moment for a challenging but doable fight.

Forward some updates and a lot has changed but the FE thing stayed the same, and I honestly don't know what to feel about that. A lot of mechanics in this game need updates on every patch, it is difficult for the lead game designer to evaluate every bit of player experience and update every single aspect; so our feedback is very valuable.
Keep giving your inputs on the matter (about the things that make FEs declare war, for example) and the devs might notice and improve it.

 

[Incompetent]

A long time ago, Synthetic was the absolute best ascension, but also required the most research to get into, thus putting it as a late game thing (around the same time players would fight FEs for their Tech).
I remember many games of around that time and the guaranteed Spiritualist war declaration always came at just the right moment for a challenging but doable fight.

I do wonder if Synthetic Fertility origin specifically will get a pass, seeing as you have no choice but to rush the ascension (whereas anyone else can choose to wait until they know about FEs before ascending). It would be pretty sad to get to synthetic ascension just as your main species dies out, only for a Fallen Empire to announce itself the moment you ascend and start constantly humiliating you until you do an ethics realignment to atone for your sins. It would still be in character though, practicality isn't exactly the main concern of senile religious zealots.

On the other hand, if the Spiritualist FE hates Synths so much, maybe it'll have a chance to go into guardian mode specifically against the Synthetic Queen, like how it currently works with the Machine FE and the Contingency?

 

[NothingToLose]

Are you sure? Just because your spiritualist faction doesn't mind it doens't means that spiritualist FE wouldn't tho

They get a strong negative when you synthetically ascend, but the positive from the both of you being Spiritualists (especially if Fanatic) should probably cancel out enough of the negative to prevent them constantly demanding humiliation. They'll likely still contact you and accuse your species of commiting mass suicide, but potentially not demand your constant humiliation until you're strong enough to tell them off.

Machines can't synthetically ascend in Machine Age. It's not clear at the moment whether the Spiritualist FE (or the Materialist FE?) would be bothered by any of Virtuality/Modularity/Nanotech.

You can start as Spiritualist organics who then synthetically ascend, and like you say, the Spiritualist FE won't like it but they won't go berserk. It's a bit awkward but it can be done already, just like Materialists can choose to psionically ascend if they get the appropriate techs. The next version will just make it a bit easier (one fewer tech required).

You can already do it, yes, but currently mechanical pops cannot join spiritualist factions. They also mostly join the Materialist faction regardless of their ethic, which they create and have strong draw for. A spiritualist empire that synthetically ascends all of it's pops would find itself without a spiritualist faction immediately because it would have no valid members in the empire. With the upcoming changes in Machine Age (or the patch, whichever is responsible) they are removing the restriction against mechanical pops in spiritualist factions and the inherent draw to the materialist faction for all mechanical pops. With Machine Age, it should actually be a viable course for your empire in a way it simply wasn't before.

Edited for grammar