Atjeh: A study in conquest. Grade B-

J. Passeportout: Mine too. Did you guess?

Peter: Isfahan was much more achievable than Kutch as you'll see later, but otherwise, yes, I went the CoT route, combined with a few other ideas. I think the sacking Tago route is too costly, given the location and the likelihood of getting enough explorers eventually.
EDIT: That was my old game.

juszuf7: Don't worry, Malacca won't last long.

Start position: 1 Jan 1419

I start with +2 stability and 100d in treasury. I gain 4 merchants per year (coastal plus domestic policies). I gain 3 colonists per year (1 from being a frontier country - wahey!). I gain 2 diplomats per year (good monarch). I also get 1.8 missionaries per year, with 1 being a benefit of being Sunni.

I have 2 provinces: Ajeh is my capital, with 8000 inhabitants. Trade in spices, tax 7, income 15. Riau has 5000 people, with naval supplies, tax base of 4 and income 9. Each province allows recruitment of its whole population, no more, no less when at +3 stability.

I have 6 CB provinces. The two above, together with Jambi and Palembang, which are infested with natives, and Johor and Mallaca, which are infested with Malaccans.

Domestic sliders are as follows:
Aristocracy 7
Centralisation 2
Innovative 3
Free Trade 5
Def./Off. 5
Naval/Land 2
Quantity 2
Serfdom 7

My current Monarch is Anaba. With stats of 7/7/7, he’s not a bad find, especially since he lives from 1419-1447 and then rules from beyond the grave until 1496.

My state culture is Indonesian, which is shared with Brunei and Makassar, making a grand total of 5 Indonesian culture provinces. Luckily there are lots of provinces nearby that don’t have much culture at all. I reckon on 15 known empty provinces (including Pondicherry which will quickly be cleared by natives), more in India when I control an Indian capital, and at least nine more in SE Asia once I get a conquistador. My known provinces go from Delhi and 3 coastal provinces of Vijayanagar in the West to Flores and Manado in the East. They go from Korea and Nippon in the North to Mataram in the South.

I’ll put a political screenshot here when I can find somewhere to put it. For now, I just ask, what do you think my opening gambit should be?

EDIT: Link to starting screenie. Atjeh in 1419

I was looking through my save games from the last three weeks, and I realised that while my strategy was good in many ways, the execution, particularly in the 15th Century, was more worthy of a D- grade, and that's if I'm lucky. Finally diploannexing Malacca province in 1486? I think I should be ashamed.

So, without further standing on ceremony, I've decided to start again. This way you get to give advice instead of just marvelling at my stupidity. I think I can get away with claiming that going back 269 years is not reloading. It does mean the AAR will be slower.

The overarching strategy post for the first 100 years or so will come tomorrow morning (later today really, I suppose), to be followed in the afternoon by the actual events of 1419-1447.

The Grand Strategy

I plan to concentrate on rich provinces, as you should. Many of the richest and best manpower provinces in Asia lie in India and Persia, so most of these must be integrated into the empire before the BB wars. There are of course a lot of empty provinces around and I am a frontier nation. No BB gain there. On top of all that, from 1439 I will have a diplomacy rating of 9 and will soon have a border with Ayutthaya. The possibilities are endless.

When not trying to diploannex, I will use my heaps of diplomats to get trade agreements everywhere and gain 5 merchants in every European and Asian CoT.

By 1492, I must have land/naval<3 or FT<4 to give the best chance of explorers. I plan to use these to discover, in order, Australia and New Zealand (no manpower, but high tax value), Viti Levu (sugar), Siberia (poor income except the gold, but all that manpower 1 slowly adds up), Tahiti, South America (for monopoly in Cuzco) and the Seychelles area. The other aim in discovering South America is to get city or two next to the Incas before BB wars start, allowing a longer fight against the Spanish. They may have put up large fortresses by the time I get there all the same.

Sliders will need to be moved around before BB war kicks off, but they aren’t as far out of position as I was expecting. Taking each in turn, I plan to max aristocracy first for the 9 diplomacy rating, followed by going max offensive for the +1 shock. Once I need artillery I’ll be able to afford them anyway, the limit will be manpower. Centralisation will be brought down to 0 by “cities demand old rights” events. Serfdom will be maximised to reduce war exhaustion. I will just have to put up with it if I get that “unhappiness amongst the peasantry” -3 stab event. Free trade will be brought down to 0 for colonists, but only once I have the desired 5 merchants in Europe. As for innovative, I plan to leave it where it is, and will take the court painter or philosopher events if they appear to push it up to about 5 for tech gain. I will of course return towards 0 as a priority once BB war approaches.

Aristocracy 7 -- > 10
Centralisation 2 -- > 0
Innovative 3 -- > 5 then to 0
Free Trade 5 -- > 0
Def./Off. 5 -- > 10
Naval/Land 2 -- > 0 once tech improves land morale
Quantity 2 -- > 1 once tech improves land morale
Serfdom 7 -- > 10

Total slider moves: 28, of which about 5 will be moved by random events.

Tech starts at 0 in all except trade (1). No money will go to military tech for a long time, going for infra 1 (tax collectors), infra 2, trade 2 (trading posts) and then infra 5 (governors). I will then go for trade 4 (trade embargo – though it’s more for the increased income. I will then go full speed for the CRT at land 18, allowing fire phase for all cavalry armies. I would have liked to research naval in the late 15th century to increase my exploration speed, but I will just have to hope I get enough explorers. After land 18, it's back to trade to level 8, then leave it to the refineries and transfer back to infra or possibly land.

Depending on my monarchs (they only get worse) BB war should kick off around about gaining land 18. I expect this in about 1650. Will that be long enough? Quite possibly, but only if I can take out the Incas and make quick gains in China, who I expect to have similar or better land tech.

The plan for the next 50 years

First, take out Malacca in two quick wars. I don’t intend to incur the extra BB point by breaking truce though. The BB from force annexation of same religion nations is quite enough.

After that, I intend to go colonial, putting up cities in Palembang, Jakarta (sugar province with 10 tax and friendly natives!) and Pondicherry, the last of which should be cleared of the Vijayanagar colony once they get into a war with Mysore. I intend to put a trade post not city in Jambi to retain the frontier nation bonus.

Once I have discovered Palakimedi, I will build a city there to amass an army to attack Bengal and capture Ganges.

After that, (and possibly before as well) I will use random CBs and getting in a good alliance to force or diplo vassalise in southeast Asia. My monarchs never get this good again.

The only other firm objective is Isfahan and some richer Persian provinces. I don’t think this is achievable for Atjeh before the start of the collapse of the Timurid Empire events, since I will require a port in Bombay. I may go for military access through Delhi if I can instead. The other way of doing this is to hope Persia form early (earliest is 1480), who I will have CB on. The danger is that Isfahan will be their capital (chance 1 in 3), though the other possibilities are Tabaristan and Tabriz, both of which I’d like to own.

For income, I plan to use much of my 4 diplomats a year (at diplomacy 7+2 for full aristocracy) on gaining trade agreements everywhere except Castille. I will then aim for 5 merchants in every CoT I can see except Andalucia. This will require map exchanges at some stage, if I can’t get into an early war with the Timurids. Map exchanges need to be planned carefully, so as to make sure western Europe cannot ally with China.

In terms of alliances, I will either ally with Brunei and Makassar to lead up to diploannexation, or I’ll try to get into an alliance that gives me a defensive war in India. I’ll see what develops.

Re: Re: The plan for the next 50 years

Originally posted by ws2_32


It seems to be a comon misconception that breaking truce gives you more BB points. The FAQ is incorrect on this point. It does not give more BB points than any other declaration of war. The stability hit is the only concern. And as long as you have only a few of same religion provinces, and a decent monarch, your stability recovers without investment. So stability is not of concern.

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I didn't check this, and if you're right I completely agree. My monarch ratings gave a stability increase about every two months or so when I had four provinces, with no additional investment.

Also, BB from force-annexation of a single province country is the same as BB from diplo-annexation. The way to save BB would be to DoW Mallaca and take Johor and force-vassalize. Then you would diplo-annex Mallaca. That saves a whole 2 BB points overall (one less for a DoW and one less for a non-core province Perak).

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This first point is definitely not true, even when the one province in question is a core province. BB after the first war was 2 (1 BB for CB same religion DoW lost in 1422 decrease plus 2 for taking Perak in offensive war). BB in 1432, immediately after force annexing Malacca =8. I don't seem to have lost 1 BB in 1428, which really confuses me, but in any case, BB should be at a maximum of 4 even with no decrease with time if it's the same as diploannexing.

Attempting to diploannex Malacca is possibly the biggest mistake I made on my first attempt. Because of the income they get from trade, I couldn't diploannex them until I'd set up several rich colonies and taken provinces in a war in India, IIRC. Hence waiting till 1486.

A highly likely possibility is that Delhi allies with Timurid Empire. Then you can fight through India to get to the Timurids.

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True, but that will mean finding colonising Palakimedi, taking Ganges, Sambalpur and military access from Bengal (probably), then fighting through Delhi for vassalisation. This isn't a problem, but doing it before the Mamelukes or Hedjaz expand into Persia might be. I have CB on the Mamelukes, but I may not be able to get to enough of their provinces to demand Isfahan. Another problem is the possibility of defections to Baluchistan forming a wall between Delhi and Samarkand.

No more for the moment, as the story to 1447 should go up in a few hours, and I don't want to spoil it.

Jan 1419 - Oct 1447

Before I start, I move +1 to aristocracy and change religion sliders to max Sunni, min Orthodox, 2/3 Shi’ite and 1/3 Catholic. The reason for this is simple. I don’t expect to be at war with Christians much before BB wars, but I may force religion changes on Shiite nations as part of peace resolutions. It would be preferable if relations are above -200 when they become Sunni, to make diplovassalisation cheaper once they’ve converted some provinces for me.

Obviously the first step is preparing for war against Malacca. Riau is not a port, so I immediately begin building a galley in Ajeh. Each galley takes 5 months to build, and I can only build one at a time until I build a tax collector, which is impossible at infra tech 0. I reckon on assembling 5 galleys and taking them to the Straits of Malacca, where I will load them with cavalry. In early 1421 I realise that unloading piecemeal from ships means I must take a loan to guarantee numerical advantage for my troops. While I wait for the ships, I set about gaining 5 merchants in Malacca and further afield, while spare diplomats gain a royal marriage with Ayutthaya and trade agreements with people who look like they’ve already got trade level 1.

The war goes badly for a while with a string of losses where my cavalry are shunted around Malacca with poor morale, leading for several demands for Riau. I laugh through gritted teeth. The result is never in doubt, but I learn quite how long it takes to take three port provinces without blockade. Peace comes in 24 January 1425, taking Johor (CB province), Perak (non-CB), 200d and military access.

The next five years of truce were used to expand trade income, clear natives from Jambi and Palembang and start a city in Palembang. I went to declare war in 1430, but couldn’t. I realised what I’ve done. I went to sort it out but couldn’t. I realised I had to move my troops. War was eventually declared in April 1430, leading to force annexation of Malacca on 3 March 1432. The infestation was now fully removed.

My BB now stood at 8, but I was happy to sit back and see what happened next, using the new income to place merchants and build cities in Palembang and Jakarta. I decided to get into the massive eastern Asian alliance that was forming, for safety. This consisted of Vientiane, Taungu, Dai Viet, Cambodia, China, Korea and me. I’d have been scared if I was nearby.

In 1438, I got a temporary CB on Champa, allied to Ayutthaya. Too good an opportunity to miss, so I bought cavalry with a loan and vassalised them both, taking 300d from each into the bargain. I called my allies, who all joined in the fun, as voyeurs mostly. In order to sort out my mistake of calling them, I waited three years after capturing all their cities, while racking up the war taxes to use placing merchants and building up colonies. Two separate peaces in October 1445 made Ayutthaya and Champa my vassals and gave me an extra 600d. This was followed at the end of the month by two automatic white peaces with my allies. Unfortunately Dai Viet had taken Da Lat from Champa in the meantime, which serves me right.

This 600d was put to good use. With a stunning diplomatic success rate, map exchanges with Delhi, the Kaliphate and the Ottomans revealed all of India, the Middle East, North Africa and Europe, save Scandinavia, in the space of two years.

In 1447, I am just short of five colonial cities, and must get on with colonisation, since any European coloniser who sacks Anatolia could send colonists and grab my islands and India. I say Anatolia, as the Ottomans are in the middle of besieging Thrace at the moment.

Progress

Am I on target? Well yes and no. I haven’t been able to send as many colonists as I was hoping, because cash is still too short to use them all, but expansion is going OK, and I hope to diploannex Ayutthaya soon. Gaining a CB on Bengal, or Arakan, their ally, will be tricky as will gaining one against Timurids or Delhi.

I am reasonably happy, apart from my awful sub-newbie mistake, that I’ve kept slightly hidden it was so bad. I know where to go next, but suggestions as to how to go there would be welcome.

China

Another question you might like to consider is what should I do about China? They are a hulking behemoth that can generate massive numbers of troops, and can keep up with Europe in technology because of the high tax levels of their provinces. While I concentrate on researching governors, they will slowly gain several land CRTs on me, and war will come sooner or later.

I can either befriend them, costing huge amounts of cash, and preventing me switching alliances to get into defensive wars and diploannex my force vassals, or I can attempt to actually fight them. The usual trick of one big cavalry army will not work very well, even with infantry to bear the brunt of the fire phase, since there are no plains provinces in the whole of southeast Asia. One possibility is to gain military access in an early war before China gain a CRT advantage, discover their inland provinces during the truce, and then station two permanent large cavalry armies in their capital and in a high-support level province in central China, hoping to gain battle score as the new armies appear. Unfortunately Atjeh cannot attack China early enough to take advantage of the unfortified inland provinces.

Of course, if I'm lucky, they will fall into civil war at a very convenient time, and I'll be able to take lots of provinces from defection. (see the Professor's ICFtM). I'm not going to bank on it though.

Since I don't have a screenie for this bit, just a few pointers to the situation away from the Spice Islands:

SE Asia has changed little. Mysore and Hyderabad have reduced Vijayanagar to one province. The Timurid Empire is third in vp, despite not having reached their +600vp for disintegration. Still, as they say, the bigger they are, further they fall, especially when you have +8 RR events and you've already got +4 war exhaustion from your Khanate ally failing to besiege Tibet.

"And finally..." Siebenburgen has annexed Milan.