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#1 | |
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Private
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 15
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An English-speaking, Pro-Slavery Nicaragua
Think that Texas will produce problems? I think an alternate history where Nicaragua becomes a puppet American dictatorship, or is outright annexed, would be much more fun. Amoral, yes, but pulling it off as Walker or keeping the US together while annexing it would be challenging. Even better than the Ostend Manifesto.
For info: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...(DOCID+ni0017) ( link may not work soon ) Quote:
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#2 |
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The pain of being a man
![]() ![]() Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 526
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Always loved the Walker story. (I mean, it's weird and interesting; personally, Walker was repugnant, albeit, I suppose, with a can-do attitude.)
It must be in, of course. Given the complexity of it though even I have trouble seeing how Walker's conquest of Nicaragua could be done without an event-driven chain of events. I'll give it a shot though: if population units can describe different general occupations (as they appear to) then a population movement can comprise largely of soldiers. Dependent upon the relative technological sophistication, ideology, and numbers, they might start a coup. This mechanism could be useful elsewhere, for fomenting internal ethnic and political dissent from outside a country (I.R.A., Black Hand, Bolsheviks). But maybe Walker's such a unique case (random Americans take over Nicaragua) that if such a property were added, we'd see Irish gangs taking over New York (hmm) or German immigrants in South Dakota seceding and asking to be annexed to the Second Reich. |
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#3 |
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Beware of the HoG
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 4th Street
Posts: 5,170
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Ideologue,
Yeah, the United States would be annexed to eight or nine countries if the probability was high enough... I think this has to be represented through events, unfortunately.
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HG "Evil triumphs when good men stop playing." -John |
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#4 |
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LurkAAR
![]() ![]() Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Middle of nowhere, Norway
Posts: 3,460
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The Nicaragua affair came to be, as I understand it, as a part of a general trend in the Southern states of the US of wanting to counter-balance the Northern states anti-slavery attitudes by adding more "slave territory" to the US. It could just as well have been Cuba.
Representing this through an event where you have the choice of "spreading our way of life" or something is a possibility, perhaps.
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Economics is extremely useful as a form of employment for economists. - John Kenneth Galbraith |
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#5 |
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Beware of the HoG
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 4th Street
Posts: 5,170
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Norg,
Eh... That was the idea over Cuba (and one that, in various forms, persists to this day). Most of the involvement in Latin America originated with the northern power-base. Industrialists wanted cheap resources and convoy roots, capitalists wanted access to and control over markets, the Iron Triangle wanted to push Europeans out of the US' default sphere of influence, newspapermen got all hot and bothered over the idea of canals and civilizing the heathens and shooting jaguars... The south was interested in the plains and northern Mexico. Anything further was simply too far-fetched prior to the civil war, and irrelevant afterward... As far as I know, only the fruitgrowers exerted a more than negligible impact on interventionist policies-and that had nothing to do with (American) slavery.
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HG "Evil triumphs when good men stop playing." -John |
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#6 |
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LurkAAR
![]() ![]() Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Middle of nowhere, Norway
Posts: 3,460
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I'm mainly citing one single source (James McPherson's "Battly Cry of Freedom") on this issue, so I'm quite sure that I may be wrong.
__________________
Economics is extremely useful as a form of employment for economists. - John Kenneth Galbraith |
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#7 |
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Dread Overlord of the Cuyahoga
![]() Join Date: May 2001
Location: In the harem of my floating arcology-palace in Lake Erie
Posts: 1,973
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Would make for a good AAR though, annexing Nicaragua (as well as no doubt many other central american and caribean territories, and perhaps mexico?) as Slave states, then taking them with you as the Confederacy. Or, invading Canada to balance the books, either way, it's good fun
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Ideal Woman of the Moment: Summer Glau Role Model of the Moment: Ben Franklin I used to have links to my countries in forum-based games here, but I have rampaging ADD and inevitably forget about them within a few weeks, leaving the links to serve as a mockery of my inability to complete anything. So no more links. |
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#8 | |
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General
![]() ![]() Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posts: 1,743
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Quote:
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#9 |
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Dread Overlord of the Cuyahoga
![]() Join Date: May 2001
Location: In the harem of my floating arcology-palace in Lake Erie
Posts: 1,973
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Lousiana and mississippi, but not Florida? Seems like the natural place for any such movement to start from.
__________________
Ideal Woman of the Moment: Summer Glau Role Model of the Moment: Ben Franklin I used to have links to my countries in forum-based games here, but I have rampaging ADD and inevitably forget about them within a few weeks, leaving the links to serve as a mockery of my inability to complete anything. So no more links. |
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#10 | |
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First Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Houston, TX, US
Posts: 219
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Quote:
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#11 |
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Beware of the HoG
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 4th Street
Posts: 5,170
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Tim,
As I said, the south was interested in slave-holding Cuba (large and wealthy enough for three states, in the early nineteenth century)... But Latin America, on the whole, was a playground for more northerly ambitions. Daoloth, The two hallmarks of pre-industrial foreign policy, the Monroe Doctrine and the Spanish-American War (along with its progenitors), originated in northern political thinking and economic interests. On the Walker incident in particular, I admit to knowing little... But I've never heard it suggested that his motive was sectionalism.
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HG "Evil triumphs when good men stop playing." -John |
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#12 | |
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First Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Houston, TX, US
Posts: 219
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Quote:
"The two hallmarks of pre-industrial foreign policy, the Monroe Doctrine and the Spanish-American War (along with its progenitors), originated in northern political thinking and economic interests." Right, but that's irrelevant. That's not Walker's time; that's about two generations later. Like I suggested, you two are discussing different eras, and then one you're fixated on is not the one that is in the OP. History professor Robert E. May suggests the following books in reference to Walker's period: Manifest Destiny's Underworld: Filibustering in Antebellum America. University of North Carolina Press, 2002 John A. Quitman: Old South Crusader. Baton Rouge, LA: Louisiana State University Press, 1985. McLemore Prize, Mississippi Historical Society, 1986. The Southern Dream of a Caribbean Empire, 1854-1861. Baton Rouge, LA: Louisiana State University Press, 1973. Paperback edition with new afterword. Athens, GA: University of Georgia Press, 1989. You will not find anything about northern expansionism here. The drive was southern. He also recommends these articles: "Buchanan, James" and "Pierce, Franklin," in Encyclopedia of U.S. Foreign Relations (1997), 1: 187-188, 3: 396-397. "Filibustering," "Kinney, Henry L.," "López, Narcisco," and "Walker, William," in Encyclopedia of Latin American History (1996), 2: 570-571, 3: 455, 5: 436-437. "Cazneau, Jane Maria Eliza McManus," The New Handbook of Texas (1996), 1: 1052-53. "Imperialism" in Richard N. Current, ed., Encyclopedia of the Confederacy (1993), 2: 808-809. "Fighting South" and "Filibusters" in Encyclopedia of Southern Culture (1989), 1107, 1504. I hope that helps clarify things a bit. |
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#13 | |
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General
![]() ![]() Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posts: 1,743
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Quote:
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#14 |
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Beware of the HoG
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 4th Street
Posts: 5,170
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Tim,
Point taken. Dunno much about Walker... I was answering the notion that US policy toward Latin America was a southern invention/driven by southern interests. And given that, as you say, he was originally out for run-of-the-mill reasons, glory and power, it's not indicative of a larger trend. Daoloth, The Monroe Doctrine, er, significantly predates Walker's first expedition... In the space of US foreign policy, it was an aberration anyway. Sectionalism was principally domestic-even where it hampered or denied statehood (in California or Kansas or Cuba, for example) it was still limited to the Manifest Destiny, to zones of preexisting control. American Pageant, by the way, is not a very credible source outside Middle American high schools...
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HG "Evil triumphs when good men stop playing." -John |
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#15 | |
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First Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Houston, TX, US
Posts: 219
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Quote:
I'm aware of the Monroe Doctrine, and it has little to do with northern industrial efforts. Furthermore, the US wasn't within the ability to enforce it until after Walker's time period. Still, look into my previous cites for more information on the filibusters.. |
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#16 |
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Beware of the HoG
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 4th Street
Posts: 5,170
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Daoloth,
And read my previous post on Walker... I'm not disputing the role of sectionalism in his adventure. This is about the larger issue of US policies in Latin America, which were, principally, rooted in the north.
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HG "Evil triumphs when good men stop playing." -John |
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#17 | |
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General
![]() ![]() Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posts: 1,743
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Quote:
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Where all those interested in unfettered debate go to get away from the Mods. Languish http://languish.org/forums/index.php?board=1.0 |
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