Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

AGC & EEP: Far East

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
unmerged(2456)

unmerged(2456)

Pure Evil Genius
Mar 29, 2001
11.211
0
www.hero6.com
Most of these were discussed in AGC only (these were largely copied from Sun_Zi_36):

Changes and in names of countries
Deletetion of SEA nations/revolters

Changes in revolters:
Mongol Hordes in AGC
4 'Fall of Ming Dynasty' Revolters (were to be implimented in EEP).

Political
*Vietnam to start off as part of China, with revolt events to simulate its rebellion.
*Moved Chinese capital to 653 (Shanghai).
*Moved Manchu capital to 640 (Nakhodka).
*Various boundary changes.

National
*Correspond with political boundaries. Uighur-Mogolistan have shields on 1606 (Sichuan).
*SE Asian nations more complicated.
* Chinese Revolters national provinces to be worked out.

Exploration
*Inconsistancies with Chinese knowledge of Indio-Persian Sea and land.
*For Manchuria, northern exploration limit in 1419 should be provinces 609, 611, 632, 1467, 623. Should know most provinces of China.
*Tibet should know all provinces of inland China.

Flags and Shields
*New flags/shields need to be made for Chinese minors, including Manchuria. The current Manchu flag and shield with the dragon should be given to China. The revolter flags should be different enough to be distinquishable at a glance on the battlefield.

DIPLOMACY:
*Korea, Tibet and Manchu-Qing vassals of China.
*Tweaking initial alliances and relations of Far Eastern nations to guide historical development.

CULTURE:
*The cultures are Manchu, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Han, Uighur, Tibetan, Zhuang, Vietnamese, Cham, Khmer, Thai, Mon, Burmanese, Upper Burman, Malay, Javan and Indonesian.

RELIGION:
*Religion setup altered
*Because of raised initial tachs (see below), religion effecting techspeed may need to be further slowed but the degree needs to be playtested. Techspeeds for other non-Christian religions should also be slowed as initial tech r slightly raised.
*Religious modifier effects: morale penalty for Confucianism, increase stability bonus for all non-Christian religions, decrease for Christian religions subject to playtesting. Trade eff penalty for Eastern relgions or bonus for Western religions.

PROVINCES:
*Terrain change proposal: go to New Terrain for the Far East and a more recent one: Far East Culture and Religion
*Manpower changes implemented TBD
*Goods to be changed so that China have less valuable goods and appear in correct provinces.
*Population and income to be reviewed.
*City names, positions and other attributes to be reviewed.
*Canton port should be situated in province 657 (Kowloon), renamed and repositioned (there is no Hong Kong until 1842).
*A centre of trade should be added in province 657 (Kowloon).

STARTING TECHS & DP:
*China should start with the following tech levels: land 4, naval 5, infra 3, trade 3. Surrounding countries should have 1 lv less, reduce further as u go further from China.
*The following DPs for China: aristocracy = 7, centralization = 9, innovative = 1, mercantilism = 7, offensive = 4, land = 7, quality = 7, serfdom = 8.
*Quality for Japan should be 9, manchu 6 and korea 7.

EVENTS:
*rework the manchu takeover of china so it becomes a coherent series with interesting variances. This includes implementing "Crown of China" events.
*more about the aftermath of the takeover: resistances and rebellions
*Crown of China: event to grant any Chinese minor which can control most of China the tag for China. Countries that can become China are Manchuria, Dai Shun, Dai Xi, Zhou, Southern Ming and Korea(?).
*Crown of China: all possible monarchs will be listed in the Chinese file, event controlling which line of monarchs to reign (whoever inherits the Chinese throne). Leaders may also be slept or waken according to this.
*Events simulating Mongol Raids into China throughout history, *Confucian structural events to simulate the Confucian international and societal order and to give adequate historical effects on player's choice of strategy. Thus the inward perfection vs outward expansion event is to be abolished. Religious minority rebellion events could come under this.
*Reworking Zheng He and events surrounding him. add the scrapping of the navy event, more events on japanese pirate raids.
*more events about the corruption and ordeals of the Ming bureaucracy and courts.
*rework the opening of the ports and jesuits events to make the effects more realistic.
*rework the Treaty of Narchinsk ]Treaty of Narchinsk[/URL]
* Events to signify the capture and raiding of ships before they were burnt in the scrapping the navy event
* Incorperation of the Japanese events in EEP and changes in the Japan's closure of ports event
* Events to convert all of Japan to Chritianity in a very unhistorical choice in the "Tokagowa Edict of Explusion"

Culture:
Far East Religion and Culture
Culture Setup
* Japan should be Confusican state religion and all provinces (except northern one budhist...northern should be pagan)...maybe capital can be confusican
* Budhism and pagan religion added for Chinese provines.

AI:
* Make a new AI for Crown of China events
* Rework the current Chinese colonizing AI
* Make new Chinese AI for not colonizing after the voyages of Zheng He and scrapping the navy event
* Changes in AI files to make them more fierce when they close ports

Terrain:
Far East Terrain

Monarchs and Leaders:
* Give China a few of its historical explorers before scrapping of navy event
* Give China random explorers before scrapping of navy event (and after depending on the choices they make)
* Changing various monarchs, esp for Japan depending on war outcomes.

Special:
Event dealing with Portgual and China giving portugal a province needs overhall (portgual shouldn't get the province as this became an interantional port).
 
Last edited:
Nice summary :)
I once read through the events for simulating the mongol threat and i remember they were elaborate and cool.
Some of the links do not work properly: Treaty of Narchinsk and Laotian, Thai and Champan culture setup appears in two places.
I think this change in culture setup was suggetsed by Philip V for EEP, but it all got stuck on the way to being implementing. I think he's from that area, seemed so on his mail address. But since there are support and no voices against it, I think we could perhaps get that 1 extra culture tag.
 
Originally posted by mnorrefeldt
Nice summary :)
Click to expand...
Thanks :)
Some of the links do not work properly: Treaty of Narchinsk and Laotian, Thai and Champan culture setup appears in two places.
Click to expand...
Hmm well then you'll haveto talk to Sun Zi...i copied these links from the 1st post on the AGC: China thread.
 
I think most of this is very sensible. As can be expected my concerns are with the typical AGC/EEP differences of perspective. I'd like to get a recap of how the culture changes improve things. Given the way that Genoa and Venice mess up the tech levels in the Latin tech group, giving infra 3 and trade 3 to China is likely to make the Chinese group better than the muslim group, unless China brings it's whopping neighbour bonuses to the muslim group. I'd imagine there are some data on this issue and would be very interested to see it. For thre same reason I'm very reluctant to give China centralization 9 - this will feed directly into the tech levels of the entire chinese tech group.

In some ways life would be better of China were a tech group to itself. Then these things that are reasonable (although I still think CENT 9 is too high) wouldn't have such massive effects.

I need to look at the manpower mod more, but it seems like a good idea, especially with the changes since 1.05.

I've argues against Canton COT before, but as long as the event dealing with it is balanced and it doesn't mess up techs too much it is clearly a good thing.

And as I'm trying to be less conservative I'll say that I think Chritian Japan and colonizing China could be very interesting.

So basically all my concerns are about the techgroup. I don't know if these can be handled with religion modifiers as there is a lot of religious diveristy in the chinese techgroup.
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
So basically all my concerns are about the techgroup. I don't know if these can be handled with religion modifiers as there is a lot of religious diveristy in the chinese techgroup.
Click to expand...
Like I said, Sun Zi should know and I think he said his tests ended up with a China close (maybe 1-2 techs a littler higher) than what it is in vanilla GC

And there are a few things i don't agree with him on either... i don't think Korea should have a chance at the Crown of China, he gave a lot more national provinces to the revolters than i would have.
And as I'm trying to be less conservative I'll say that I think Chritian Japan and colonizing China could be very interesting.
Click to expand...
China would likely just be a TP colonizer and Chrisitan Japan is likely less than 5% w/o human (i only want to add the events becuse converting your nation to catholosism w/o events would be almost impossible even for a human player.
I'd like to get a recap of how the culture changes improve things.
Click to expand...
Well from what i know, the cultures for china are entirely screwed up. 1 of them isn't even a culture. Again Sun Zi should know better.
 
Last edited:
To be clear, I'm not too worried about China tech itself (though I am a little about that). If it gets high it's not a huge problem. I'm more concerned about the chiniese techgroup. If they get to infra 2 a whole lot earlier than they used to bad things could ensue.
 
I've read the AGC thread in which religion of Japan was discussed. Fine. Good arguments on all sides. Now here, you are proposing giving Confucian a morale penalty. This would in turn give Japan a morale penalty...which should absolutely not happen. If anything, the Buddhism of the Japanese should give them a morale bonus. So, if Confucian is going to have a morale penalty, it makes no sense to give Japan Confucian religion. Let them be Buddhist. However, if the morale penalty is removed, Japan can remain Confucian and not be much worse for the wear.
 
Originally posted by Stonewall
I've read the AGC thread in which religion of Japan was discussed. Fine. Good arguments on all sides. Now here, you are proposing giving Confucian a morale penalty. This would in turn give Japan a morale penalty...which should absolutely not happen. If anything, the Buddhism of the Japanese should give them a morale bonus. So, if Confucian is going to have a morale penalty, it makes no sense to give Japan Confucian religion. Let them be Buddhist. However, if the morale penalty is removed, Japan can remain Confucian and not be much worse for the wear.
Click to expand...
Well Japanese governement was [Neo-]Confusicanist so i see no reason to change that reguardless...as to your other point....the various country sliders can be set to be historically accurate and give Japan a moral bonus vs. their neighbors.
 
Originally posted by Jinnai
Well Japanese governement was [Neo-]Confusicanist so i see no reason to change that reguardless...as to your other point....the various country sliders can be set to be historically accurate and give Japan a moral bonus vs. their neighbors.
Click to expand...

The government might have been neo-coinfucianist, but the people were decidedly Buddhist, hence my difficulty with the province religion setup. I've read the threads detailing why it was thought to be better to have them Confucian and find the arguments unconvincing. Just because there's more than one kind og Buddhism doesn't mean we have toswitch one of the foremost Busshist countries in the world to Confucian. If Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Evangelicals, Anglicans, etc., can be grouped together under the label "Protestant", then why can't Buddhists and Zen-Buddhists be grouped under the same label as well?

I don't like giving Confucians a morale penalty in the first place. If as you say, countries can be modelled through DP settings, why provinde a religion-wide morale penalty that would hamper Japan in any war with a non-Confucian state?
 
Originally posted by Stonewall
The government might have been neo-coinfucianist, but the people were decidedly Buddhist, hence my difficulty with the province religion setup. I've read the threads detailing why it was thought to be better to have them Confucian and find the arguments unconvincing. Just because there's more than one kind og Buddhism doesn't mean we have toswitch one of the foremost Busshist countries in the world to Confucian. If Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Evangelicals, Anglicans, etc., can be grouped together under the label "Protestant", then why can't Buddhists and Zen-Buddhists be grouped under the same label as well?
Click to expand...
I agree entirely here...there shouldn't be confuscianist provinces (except maybe the capital which did tend to have a concentration of those government officials.

The rest should be budhist except the northern island, which should be pagan.
 
Originally posted by Jinnai
I agree entirely here...there shouldn't be confuscianist provinces (except maybe the capital which did tend to have a concentration of those government officials.

The rest should be budhist except the northern island, which should be pagan.
Click to expand...

Ok, maybe I misunderstood the initial setup proposal. I thought you were proposing Confucian provinces except the northern most one which would be Buddhist. I think the all Buddhist except the northern one being pagan is fine. I don't know enough about that northern island to comment intelligently.

This brings up ther point that with all the major provinces Buddhist and the government Confucian, the Japanese are going to have a -30% tax on all their provinces. And given that Confucians can't convert to Buddhist, I'm worried that this would cripple Japan. In the end it would take some testing to see how it effects things. I'm also wondering how realistic it would be for Japan to conquer some Chinese provinces and get full tax benefits due to the same religion. I know culture will be different, but it seems a bit weird to me. I'm of the belief that whatever works best in the game should be adopted, regardless of historical accuracy. Although, both goals should be striven for. In the end, we'll have to test the idea out and see how it works in the game.
 
Well, as ppl may notice from the AGC thread, not all the proposals have been implemented, so not all everything has been teseted thru and fine-tuned, etc. furthermore the opening post in the AGC thread is not very up to date and many proposals are changed. I am not prepared to discuss all the changes here yet. i will be very busy until the end of my semester which is in just over 2 weeks time, so i will not be able to go thru detailed discussion and give reasoning to all the changes made until then. Discussion can continue here of course, but if Jinnai dont mind, i'll prob open a new thread when I m freer since it is much easier to list/update/keep track of all the changes/proposals done by me in the opening post.

since many of the proposals are not done, I dont recommend them going in at this moment, plus the radical nature of the changes makes it necessary to introduce the changes in a sequence (so eg, Mongol raids, Confucian structural/religious events and scrapping navy/pirate raids should go in before tech increase). However, IMO, under the object of the merger which was agreed upon, if there are changes in the EEP and the AGC, they should be considered on equal footing. but if there are no EEP changes to be compared with and the AGC changes are tested thru and working, then those AGC changes would be in the same position as EEP material that is not challenged by AGC. In that case I see no alternative but to presume that those changes would go into the merger unless there are some strong objections. therefore, even though i dont recommend proposals that are not done to go in at the moment, there should be a presumption that changes that are already done should go in, unless there are EEP changes on the same thing.

that brings me to the culture changes that Phillip V had done for the EEP. i thought it has already gone in (havent checked), and was anticipating discussion on that topic, but since it's not, i guess ppl would have to live with my changes. He had asked about the AGC changes b4 anyway, and i think his changes are very similar to the AGC ones but perhaps we could still get Phillip V to comment on what he was going to introduce into EEP.

Raising of initial techs and Confucian morale penalty hasnt gone in yet so is still up to debate. Conf morale especially has been discussed thoroughly, i'll leave jinnai to respond to that and of course all the japanese changes.
 
Originally posted by Stonewall
This brings up ther point that with all the major provinces Buddhist and the government Confucian, the Japanese are going to have a -30% tax on all their provinces. And given that Confucians can't convert to Buddhist, I'm worried that this would cripple Japan. In the end it would take some testing to see how it effects things. I'm also wondering how realistic it would be for Japan to conquer some Chinese provinces and get full tax benefits due to the same religion. I know culture will be different, but it seems a bit weird to me. I'm of the belief that whatever works best in the game should be adopted, regardless of historical accuracy. Although, both goals should be striven for. In the end, we'll have to test the idea out and see how it works in the game.
Click to expand...
I don't think that will be a problem. If it is, we can raise tax values for the provinces to offset this (it is unlikely any budhist nation will conquer japan either so raising the values shouldn't worry people for that reason), but again that is only if nessasary.

And besides giving the very feudalistic nature of japan the tax values may be more representative....i will post more later as i am leaving now.

Please keep replying.
 
One thing that needs to be addressed is banning of countries from trading in owned CoTs. Banning lowers stability by 1. The banning of western countries though, for a time, helped stabalize many of these countries by limiting outside influence...

My sugesstion is to have stability increasing events for -1 through -3 (AI mostly only...maybe a few for everyone) events that will simply raise stability to by 1 to 3.
 
btw did you manage to find a flag and shield for "tribal" manchuria? because i sure had a heck of a time finding one... you should'a seen the one they were going to use before, it was the Republic of China flag.

Yeah... i was the one that suggested those flag changes to China. The way I thought it was going to work was that Manchu was going to take over China gradually and that China was going to be renamed "Ming"... And there would be no "Manchu Takeover of China x1000 event thing" where Manchu BECOMES china... i never expected that, I just expected it to be a simple annexation.... which was why i suggested those flag and shield things.

It said somewhere that China never really had a national flag until about 1860-1870 and that was the dragon flag, which is why (since i didn't have Manchu tribal flag) I considered the dragon flag the most appropriate.
 
i do have flags that could represent tribal Manchuria (the 8 military banners). a flag that would represent tribal Manchuria exactly i dont have. if u found anything better that would be great.

the flags and shields are not implemented (in AGC or EEP) by the way, so it's still very open to discussion (compared with stuff already implemented in AGC or EEP). but that thing is easy enough to implement i dont think anyone has any objections anyway.

since this is a merger thread, the thing that is most in need of discussing is whether theres any conflicts between AGC and EEP changes that were done and even if there isnt, any strong objections about any AGC or EEP changes that are implemented.
 
I think I will be making and releasing an add-on mod for SE Asia for EEP 1.4. My current visions have exceeded what I wished to be implemented before. (For example, now I want to replace Vientiane with a new country, Lan Xang, and later simulate its breakup into Vientiane and Luang Prabang through events)
Mostly, I just plan on removing/adding/moving some countries, while tweaking stae and prov cultures and religions with what there is now. Also, reworking and adding events. (For ex. I should really like to simulate the Vietnamese revolts from China)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back