NOT A BUG: UK Naval OOB CA/CV/BB

mhitchens1963 · 24-03-2003, 07:57

While Vulture is classifying these as not actual bugs (as they do
not stop the game working or cause crashes) I have discussed these posts with him offline and he is filing them for consideration by Paradox. I'm going to post them a bit at a time (it takes me a while to go through it). I'll be doing the eight countries which are
the default selections for the 1936/39 scenarios (yes, China did
have a navy).

I'll post a CA/CV/BB one, covering all three scenarios, for each. I
most probably will then do the same for the DD/SS OOB for each.
Some of what I will post is about strict OOB stuff (dates and such). Some is questioning tech availability (basically how can something be in the builds if the country doesn't have the
tech?) and some will be more tenuous questions of interpretation (but ones that I think are worth asking).

Here's the UK suggestions

1936 Scenario UK Naval OOB suggested changes- BB, CV, CA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remove from starting forces:
HMS Malaya
HMS Warspite
HMS Repulse

Add to commenced builds
HMS Malaya (completes 15 December 1936)
HMS Warspite (completes 15 March 1937)
HMS Repulse (completes 15 May 1936)

Change in Starting forces:
HMS Arethusa from pre-war cruiser to basic cruiser

Notes:
Malaya was in refit until December 1936
Warspite was in refit until March 1937
Repulse was in refit until May 1936
Arethusa was constructed in the early 30’s and is rated as a basic cruiser in the 1939 and 1941 scenarios

1939 Scenario UK Naval OOB suggested changes- BB, CV, CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Change the names of
Furious to HMS Furious
Coventry to HMS Coventry
To match the standard naming style for UK vessels

Change to commenced builds:
HMS London should complete 1 March 1941
It completed rebuild in March 1941

In the 1939 scenario the UK has improved BBs (King George V and Prince of Wales), CVs (Illustrious, Victorious, Formidable) and a CA (Fiji) in the commenced builds, with the correct completion dates. However, the UK does not have all the necessary techs, so laying down another one gets you a basic version. The following techs should be added to the UK in 1939:
Basic ASW and Convoy escorts 6400
Improved Warship design 6500
Improved battleship propulsion 6502
Improved battleship hull 6505
BB belt armour 50mm+ 6401
BB deck armour 20mm+ 6402
Improved Battleship 6508
Self propelled artillery 14200
Improved equipment and ordnance 14300
Improved artillery pieces 14400
Naval battleship gun 400mm+ 14403
Improved Carrier Propulsion 6503
Improved Carrier Hull 6506
CA&CV Belt Armor 15mm+ 6403
CA&CV Deck Armor 10mm+ 6404
Improved Cruiser Propulsion 6501
Improved Cruiser Hull 6504
Improved Cruiser 6507
Improved Aircraft Carrier 6509
Naval Cruiser Gun 200mm+ 14402

Of course, less could be added if you don't want the UK to
have all the pre-reqs, but they do need at least Improved Battleship, Cruiser, and Aircraft Carrier.

There seems to have been an attempt to distinguish between the 6inch main gun cruisers and the 8inch main gun cruisers by giving the former lower sea defence and sea attack ratings of 4.

While a case could be made for the earlier ships (Ajax, Neptune Orion, all 8x6in, Arethusa, Aurora, Galatea, Penelope, all 6x6in), the remainder are much larger ships with 12x6in. While the 6in gun had a lower shell weight it had a much higher rate of fire than the 8in. Also the later 6in cruisers had much better armour protection than the 8in cruisers.

The special lower ratings should be removed except for the seven ships just mentioned. If anything else is to be de-rated, the York and Exeter – with only 6 main guns, are candidates. It should also be noted that the 1936 scenario does not follow this policy. The ships that should not be de-rated are Sheffield, Edinburgh, Southampton, Glasgow, Belfast, Newcastle, Birmingham, Gloucester, Liverpool, Manchester.

1941 Scenario UK Naval OOB suggested changes- BB, CV, CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Add to starting forces
HMS Dauntless (pre-war cruiser)

Add to commenced builds
HMS Unicorn (improved carrier completes 12 March 1943)
HMS Jamaica (improved cruiser, completes 29 June 1942)

Notes:
According to my information the Dauntless was broken up 1946.
While the Unicorn was designed as an aircraft maintenance ship she could carry 35 aircraft and serve as a combat vessel. If the light aircraft carrier type was added she would be best classified as that.

I note that the early escort carriers (Archer and the Avenger class) do not appear – I interpret this to mean that escort carriers are treated as part of the escort forces (I agree with this by the way).

This scenario also de-rates the 6in cruisers. I think this de-rating should only apply to the Leander, Arethusa and Dido classes (Ajax, Neptune, Orion, Arethusa, Aurora, Galatea, Penelope, Argonaut, Hermoine, Naiad, Euryalus, Cleopatra, Charybdis, Argonaut, Dido, Phoebe, Scylla and Sirius). Apart from the first seven these are AA cruisers, but I’m not sure it is worth a separate unit type. The cruisers which should not be de-rated are Glasgow, Birmingham, Mauritius, Trinidad, Nigeria, Kenya, Edinburgh, Sheffield, Belfast, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Bermuda, Gambia

Michael

*Vulture* · 24-03-2003, 19:32

Logged

24-03-2003, 07:57	#1
mhitchens1963 Second Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 127	UK Naval OOB CA/CV/BB While Vulture is classifying these as not actual bugs (as they do not stop the game working or cause crashes) I have discussed these posts with him offline and he is filing them for consideration by Paradox. I'm going to post them a bit at a time (it takes me a while to go through it). I'll be doing the eight countries which are the default selections for the 1936/39 scenarios (yes, China did have a navy). I'll post a CA/CV/BB one, covering all three scenarios, for each. I most probably will then do the same for the DD/SS OOB for each. Some of what I will post is about strict OOB stuff (dates and such). Some is questioning tech availability (basically how can something be in the builds if the country doesn't have the tech?) and some will be more tenuous questions of interpretation (but ones that I think are worth asking). Here's the UK suggestions 1936 Scenario UK Naval OOB suggested changes- BB, CV, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remove from starting forces: HMS Malaya HMS Warspite HMS Repulse Add to commenced builds HMS Malaya (completes 15 December 1936) HMS Warspite (completes 15 March 1937) HMS Repulse (completes 15 May 1936) Change in Starting forces: HMS Arethusa from pre-war cruiser to basic cruiser Notes: Malaya was in refit until December 1936 Warspite was in refit until March 1937 Repulse was in refit until May 1936 Arethusa was constructed in the early 30’s and is rated as a basic cruiser in the 1939 and 1941 scenarios 1939 Scenario UK Naval OOB suggested changes- BB, CV, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Change the names of Furious to HMS Furious Coventry to HMS Coventry To match the standard naming style for UK vessels Change to commenced builds: HMS London should complete 1 March 1941 It completed rebuild in March 1941 In the 1939 scenario the UK has improved BBs (King George V and Prince of Wales), CVs (Illustrious, Victorious, Formidable) and a CA (Fiji) in the commenced builds, with the correct completion dates. However, the UK does not have all the necessary techs, so laying down another one gets you a basic version. The following techs should be added to the UK in 1939: Basic ASW and Convoy escorts 6400 Improved Warship design 6500 Improved battleship propulsion 6502 Improved battleship hull 6505 BB belt armour 50mm+ 6401 BB deck armour 20mm+ 6402 Improved Battleship 6508 Self propelled artillery 14200 Improved equipment and ordnance 14300 Improved artillery pieces 14400 Naval battleship gun 400mm+ 14403 Improved Carrier Propulsion 6503 Improved Carrier Hull 6506 CA&CV Belt Armor 15mm+ 6403 CA&CV Deck Armor 10mm+ 6404 Improved Cruiser Propulsion 6501 Improved Cruiser Hull 6504 Improved Cruiser 6507 Improved Aircraft Carrier 6509 Naval Cruiser Gun 200mm+ 14402 Of course, less could be added if you don't want the UK to have all the pre-reqs, but they do need at least Improved Battleship, Cruiser, and Aircraft Carrier. There seems to have been an attempt to distinguish between the 6inch main gun cruisers and the 8inch main gun cruisers by giving the former lower sea defence and sea attack ratings of 4. While a case could be made for the earlier ships (Ajax, Neptune Orion, all 8x6in, Arethusa, Aurora, Galatea, Penelope, all 6x6in), the remainder are much larger ships with 12x6in. While the 6in gun had a lower shell weight it had a much higher rate of fire than the 8in. Also the later 6in cruisers had much better armour protection than the 8in cruisers. The special lower ratings should be removed except for the seven ships just mentioned. If anything else is to be de-rated, the York and Exeter – with only 6 main guns, are candidates. It should also be noted that the 1936 scenario does not follow this policy. The ships that should not be de-rated are Sheffield, Edinburgh, Southampton, Glasgow, Belfast, Newcastle, Birmingham, Gloucester, Liverpool, Manchester. 1941 Scenario UK Naval OOB suggested changes- BB, CV, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add to starting forces HMS Dauntless (pre-war cruiser) Add to commenced builds HMS Unicorn (improved carrier completes 12 March 1943) HMS Jamaica (improved cruiser, completes 29 June 1942) Notes: According to my information the Dauntless was broken up 1946. While the Unicorn was designed as an aircraft maintenance ship she could carry 35 aircraft and serve as a combat vessel. If the light aircraft carrier type was added she would be best classified as that. I note that the early escort carriers (Archer and the Avenger class) do not appear – I interpret this to mean that escort carriers are treated as part of the escort forces (I agree with this by the way). This scenario also de-rates the 6in cruisers. I think this de-rating should only apply to the Leander, Arethusa and Dido classes (Ajax, Neptune, Orion, Arethusa, Aurora, Galatea, Penelope, Argonaut, Hermoine, Naiad, Euryalus, Cleopatra, Charybdis, Argonaut, Dido, Phoebe, Scylla and Sirius). Apart from the first seven these are AA cruisers, but I’m not sure it is worth a separate unit type. The cruisers which should not be de-rated are Glasgow, Birmingham, Mauritius, Trinidad, Nigeria, Kenya, Edinburgh, Sheffield, Belfast, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Bermuda, Gambia Michael

24-03-2003, 19:32	#2
Vulture Aerandir Eärfalas Moderator Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Antwerpen: 't Stad. En al de rest is parking. Posts: 31,883	Logged __________________ Omnia si perdis, famam servare memento Semper prorsum numquam retrorsum More spam, you die! Horribly, horribly!