Columbus's Expedition

[Savvy]

In brief, the court of Ferdinand and Isabella was not the first one approached by Columbus - how different would history have been had another nation sponsored Columbus, and been the one to take advantage to launch the exploration of the Americas, as well as to reap the benefits of the further expeditions that followed? How different would the future be for Spain had it not been a colonial power, and instead kept its efforts focused on Europe until much later (such as when France or England began their colonial efforts)?

Or conversely, what if Columbus had died as a child, leaving Portugal as the sole nation devoted to exploration?

[hjarg]

First, if Columbus would have died as a child... so what? There would have been at least 100 would-be Columbuses to take his place.
I wonder rather what would have happened if da Gama made his expedition first and found a route to India (remember, Columbus wanted to do that as well, only discovered America as an accident). How much longer before someone would come to an idea to discover 'shorter route'?

And would any other nations have enough recources to launch full-scale colonization and explorations? Spain conquered Granada the same year, and ended the reconquista. A lot of people who's only job was waging war left 'unemployed' that way. So conquista was a logical solution. Easier to kill pagans then fellow europeans.

[The Big Cheese]

First, if Columbus would have died as a child... so what? There would have been at least 100 would-be Columbuses to take his place.

Very true, but those other columbuses would all land in diffarent places most likely and change the face of the history of the Americas. What if Columbus landed in Quebec? or Brazil? There are so many 'what ifs'...

[Griffon]

what if Genoa had financed his trip (he was from Genoa) instead of Spain???

[The Big Cheese]

BTW...

This isn't pre-1492 material is it?

[The Big Cheese]

My friend from Brazil told me that in a Portuguese magazine he saw a picture of a map of Portugal and there was a little arrow pointing south-west, next to the arrow it said 'Terra Brasilis'...

...The map was from 1410!



*spooky x-files music*

[Karolinen]

I'm not really sure about this but I think there were plans in Sweden to put up an expedition in the 1400s to find the viking settlement on Greenland to find out if they were still alive or what had happened. The distance from Greenland to Canada is not too far and it's actually suggested that the vikings emigrated from Greenland to North America some time around 1200-1300. After that there were actually no vikings on Greenland I think. Wether they died from a plague or were killed by the eskimoes or emigrated to Canada is unsure however. But there are traces of viking activity on New Foundland and there was a viking settlement there not long after Leif Eriksson had found his way to 'Vinland'.
If the swedish plans of an expedition to Greenland were realistic I don't know but a possible would-be-Columbus could have been a swedish sailor. 'Vinland' (probably the viking name for Newfoundland or Novia Scotia) is situated southeast of Greenland on scandinavian maps from the middle ages........
If you are interested in this and speak swedish go & get 'DrŽ¢ìÛmen om Vinland' by Alf ûÎerg. Nice book.

[Savvy]

Now that'd be an interesting alternate timeline - Portugal and its traders concentrate on the eastern route around Africa to India, then the Pacific. Meanwhile, with Iberia still locked in an unending series of wars, and Spain never arising from the union of Castile and Aragon, Columbus finally arrives at the court of the Swedish monarch, and an agreement is hatched whereby Columbus will seek out the supposed Viking landing of Vinland as a stepping stone in the search for the western route to India. Maybe not very plausible, but certainly fun

[hjarg]

IIRC, Leif Ericsson's expedition took place around 1000. He discovered Newfoundland and build a small settlement there. But due to troubles with natives, vikings abondended the settlement soon.
Still, intresting that viking's long-ships were so seaworthy that they could cross the Atlantic. More amazing thing is Heyerdahl crossing the Atlantic with papyrus ship though...

But back to the age of exploration. Genua financing Colomb's trip wouldn't mattered so much: small city-state in Italy, not enough resources to carry out full-scale colonization, native extermination etc.
And if financer would be Sweden... same problem... they were part of the Kalmar Union at that time and had enough trouble at home as well.

Hmmm.... England... recovering from War of the Roses...
France... eyes turned to Italy
Portugal... that would have been an option... no Spain in Carribean...
Austria... not intresed in colonization, same applies for Poland.
Denmark busy at home (look Sweden).
Venice, all other Italian and German states to small to achive anything.
So the only option seems to be Spain or Portugal, others would have send Colomb to hell and maybe give a nice boot is his ass as well

[Wycliffe]

Originally posted by Savvy

Or conversely, what if Columbus had died as a child, leaving Portugal as the sole nation devoted to exploration?

I believe other explorers such as Cabot were also seeking sponsers at the same time as Columbus, so the answer is that someone else would have 'discovered' the new world.

Incidently there is a theory that English fishermen from Bristol were fishing in the Grand Banks and may have landed in Newfoundland prior to Columbus' voyage, however they didn't want to share the secret with possible competitors. Cabot (or Gabatto) based himself in Bristol.

[Karolinen]

If China hadn't turned so isolationistic under the rule of the Ming emperors in the 15th century it's very likely that they would have become a colonial power of some kind. Their ships weren't worse than the ones the Portugese used and the Chinese were pretty strong as a trading-nation in Asia until the emperor decided to stop all 'unneccessary contacts' with the rest of the world....

Just imagine 'New Beijing' in California and the United People's republic of America!

[Duque de Alba]

Several years ago, USA scuba diving discovered Chinese anchors from XV century offshore California, and Spanish coins of 1478 in a wreck near Florida.

And when the 'Fletan conflict' between Canada vs. Spain-Portugal-etc, historians showed that fishermen from Bretagne, Spain, Scandinavia, ... fished in Newfoundland in XV century, but the fishing bank was so wealthy that everybody prefered hide the secret.

[pcongre]

I've been looking for some time for any info related with this topic, but it's pretty difficult to find. I've read a lot of catalan sources, but I know there are sources that claim him to be from mallorca, galicia and lots of other places. The only thing I'm almost sure about after reading my sources is that the inquisition DID change history, but anyways, I'd like to read other sources to get objective info and so on.

Regards,
pcongre da pole

PS: this is the only text written in english that claim colombus to be joan baptista colom de terra rubea(afaik), a much better one is going to be uploaded these weeks, Ill tell you when it is ready -- http://www.puignero.8m.com/webColom/...rstLetter.html

[Griffon]

yeah, get out of our fish stocks!!!

[pcongre]

Oh, and here's a better one written in spanish http://www.isp.es/manubens/cristobal_colon.html and another good site in catalan(this is the one i told is going to be traslated, the best of those 3 i mentioned imho, btw) http://www.puignero.8m.com/webColom/mentida.html

[Sam]

Actually, had Spain turned him down, Columbus had already planned to try to sell his expedition to the French court.

As far as Vinland goes....I rather think, even given ideal conditions, you'd have much there...a Viking/Amerind combo kingdom off the Grand Banks is best they'd hope for...and maybe a much more powerful Iriquois Confederacy in New England (Iron weapons?) preventing expansion.

The Vikings never would have had the numbers and the areas of Canada open to them couldn't have supported the numbers to matter much. You'd just end up with something along the lines of one of the India Indian kingdoms in EU...but without any REALLY valuable (game terms) turf.

[Viking]

Leifur Heppni (Leif Eiriksson to you ignorant dark haired dark eyed degenerate non vikings.. Travelled from Nidaros (Modern Trondheim) in 1000 heading with goods and supplies to his father Eirikur Rauði (Erik the Red) on his settlement in Brattahlíð (Steep hill) in greenland. Leifur was blown of course and ended up too far south, discovering Vinland. He landed on vinland and sent out slaves to find water and food while he planned how to get home. They found grapes and he thus called the place vinland. In heading home he went north past Labrador (Markland) and Ellesmere (Helluland). He arrived in Greenland and tells his father and anyboy who wants to listen about what happened. An icelander recently immigrated to greenland decided to travel to vinland and set up his own settlement. That settlement (found by archeologists in a place call L'anse Aux Medows in newfoundland) lasted three years and was abandoned due to incessant attacks by Skrælingjar (indians). The indians insisted on being allowed iron weapons the vikings refused and struggle ensued. These events are documented in Grænlendinga Saga (Greenlander Saga), which tells the story of the settlers and Vínlands Saga (Vinland Saga) which tells the story of the discovery.

Magnus Magnusson, of Mastermind Fame, has translated both into a very readable english version. I dont have the ISBN numbers.

Due to the little iceage the settlement in greenland was lost. The expedition to find them was danish not swedish. The last contact was in the 14th century. Towards the end of the century the pope sent a bishop to greenland, he was never heard from again.

WE icelanders allway knew about vinland. As we wrote everything down. With only small changes in history then the 1492 grande campaign game might have started with denmark already a colonial power in north america.

[Karolinen]

Originally posted by Viking
Leifur Heppni (Leif Eiriksson to you ignorant dark haired dark eyed degenerate non vikings..

What's that supposed to mean? Good old Leif was norwegian or swedish that's for sure and Leif Eiriksson is a norwegian and/or swedish name. The only icelandic boy I know who lives where I live, Arnor, is BTW black-haired and I'm blonde.....

Anyway, everything else Viking wrote was excellent, I can agree on every point.
I would also like to add that the knowledge of the existence of Vinland also had spread to Ireland, so sooner or later England would have investigated these things and put up an expedition and everything would have turned out somewhat similar even without Columbus. Perhaps at least for the English.

[Janbalk]

Originally posted by Viking
..Due to the little iceage the settlement in greenland was lost. The expedition to find them was danish not swedish. ...

Yes, Magus Erikssons(King of Norway and Sweden) planned to send a expedition to Greenland but he become a bit distracted by other things, like the great plauge and a saint accusing him of almost evrything that gone wrong in his kingdoms.

[swilhelm73]

Aren't there rumors of some Welsh Prince traveling to the New World also?

BTW, considering the existence of stone foundation in the North Eastern areas of North America, isn't it amazing that the Viking settlement there only recently came to light? The American Indians in this area never worked stone...