3 Convoy issues

Darkmoor_Dragon · 10-01-2003, 14:07

I cant find these noted elsewhere so:

1) Default convoys of AI countries (those pre-existing when game starts) are never changed by the AI. Thus, countries such as the UK start off with convoys to Malta, Singapore, gibraltar etc with only "supplies" and no oil. The result is that Oil is never supplied to said destinations and they become useless for naval bases/oil requiring ground troops.

2) There is a size of escorts attached to a convoy that makes them "invulnerable". The size seems to vary on the length (number of sea provinces crossed) and possible ships in the convoy, but a simple example is one form Germany to German occupied Norway. It consisted of 5 transports and 10 escorts - and was "invulnerable".
Despite the placement of every single British ship in the zones adjacent to a single remaining german held norwegian province, not a single convoy ship was intercepted or sunk and supplies continued to get through.

To further check this I enabled the escort cheat and added around 20 escorts to every single UK convoy, the result was that not a single UK convoy was ever intercepted or sunk by any nation "ever" - this included wolfpacks of up to 20 higher-tech german subs.

It seems that the convoy defence parameters may be a bit whacky for certain ratios or numbers of escorts and whilst it may well be WAD that an absolute naval blockade cannot stop a province being supplied does seem a bit out of whack. Needs a tonne of work to uncover the ratio/formula by hand so i figured you guys can work out if its really a problem a lot easier than i can ;-)

3) Where the AI establishes a beachead into a country that produces oil (typically a province that either produces oil or has a stockpile of it) it establishes a convoy-to-home to transports all goods from there (including oil). At the same time it needs establish a convoy to supply oil for its troops/ships.

Often the "return convoy" (bringing resources home) is larger than the supply, resulting in zero supply for its troops. I've seen this happen a number of times now resulting in the complete stalling of "invasions" by the AI due to "no supply".

In particular this happens where the "landing" province is a country stockpile one (generally the capital) and the actual stockpile doesnt need to be "massive". It only needs to be of a size that requires the AI to make a convoy of the same ship number or higher than the ship number in the convoy supplying TO that province. As this only happens on the creation of the convoy but the AI never changes the convoy sizes it becomes "persistent":

EG: (figures purely for example)

USA lands in Fascist German Allied Portugal: Oil in province stockpile is 40, other resources are higher and relatively substantial; AI establishes convoy of 20 ships to return home oil and other resources.

Supply TO convoy is 14 ships, taking just oil and supplies.

The supply TO convoy will always supply less oil than the supply-HOME convoy is capable of taking back out, resulting in zero-oil supply for troops in that landing province and any taken thereafter from it. As the initial Oil stockpile was only tiny the lack of oil is almost immediate, if the oil stockpile is higher it takes a little time for this to happen but is nonetheless inevitable.

- - -

For both 1 and 3 the AI needs to be able to re-adjust convoys to take into account variable conditions AFTER the convoy is established, not simple at the point that it IS established.

King · 10-01-2003, 14:19

1) & 3) being generic AI problems there is a not lot I can do with, excpet to say that they are working on it. For example the starting convoys are continually being tweeked and the Convoy managment AI is conitnually being worked.

As for number 2. I am making enquireis about that. Should I get anything useful in response to these I will ofcourse let you know.

inahurry · 10-01-2003, 19:36

Wouldn't be just lo-ve-ly to have both fuel and oil. After all, feed tanks crude oil and they'll choke big time. Let's hope HoI2 will implement this.

Darkmoor_Dragon · 10-01-2003, 21:19

simple solution - and a lovely one!

AngryJawaII · 11-01-2003, 07:04

HoI2 why not just let them finish this one and maybe people will edit the game a little. Dont talk about HoI2 when this one isn't done and Crusades is in making.

inahurry · 11-01-2003, 19:16

Quote:

Originally posted by AngryJawaII
HoI2 why not just let them finish this one and maybe people will edit the game a little. Dont talk about HoI2 when this one isn't done and Crusades is in making.

Hey, please let me think strategically ahead. If 'fuel' could be implemented in HoI it is certainly not me who will object.

10-01-2003, 14:07	#1
Darkmoor_Dragon First Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: GB Posts: 294	3 Convoy issues I cant find these noted elsewhere so: 1) Default convoys of AI countries (those pre-existing when game starts) are never changed by the AI. Thus, countries such as the UK start off with convoys to Malta, Singapore, gibraltar etc with only "supplies" and no oil. The result is that Oil is never supplied to said destinations and they become useless for naval bases/oil requiring ground troops. 2) There is a size of escorts attached to a convoy that makes them "invulnerable". The size seems to vary on the length (number of sea provinces crossed) and possible ships in the convoy, but a simple example is one form Germany to German occupied Norway. It consisted of 5 transports and 10 escorts - and was "invulnerable". Despite the placement of every single British ship in the zones adjacent to a single remaining german held norwegian province, not a single convoy ship was intercepted or sunk and supplies continued to get through. To further check this I enabled the escort cheat and added around 20 escorts to every single UK convoy, the result was that not a single UK convoy was ever intercepted or sunk by any nation "ever" - this included wolfpacks of up to 20 higher-tech german subs. It seems that the convoy defence parameters may be a bit whacky for certain ratios or numbers of escorts and whilst it may well be WAD that an absolute naval blockade cannot stop a province being supplied does seem a bit out of whack. Needs a tonne of work to uncover the ratio/formula by hand so i figured you guys can work out if its really a problem a lot easier than i can ;-) 3) Where the AI establishes a beachead into a country that produces oil (typically a province that either produces oil or has a stockpile of it) it establishes a convoy-to-home to transports all goods from there (including oil). At the same time it needs establish a convoy to supply oil for its troops/ships. Often the "return convoy" (bringing resources home) is larger than the supply, resulting in zero supply for its troops. I've seen this happen a number of times now resulting in the complete stalling of "invasions" by the AI due to "no supply". In particular this happens where the "landing" province is a country stockpile one (generally the capital) and the actual stockpile doesnt need to be "massive". It only needs to be of a size that requires the AI to make a convoy of the same ship number or higher than the ship number in the convoy supplying TO that province. As this only happens on the creation of the convoy but the AI never changes the convoy sizes it becomes "persistent": EG: (figures purely for example) USA lands in Fascist German Allied Portugal: Oil in province stockpile is 40, other resources are higher and relatively substantial; AI establishes convoy of 20 ships to return home oil and other resources. Supply TO convoy is 14 ships, taking just oil and supplies. The supply TO convoy will always supply less oil than the supply-HOME convoy is capable of taking back out, resulting in zero-oil supply for troops in that landing province and any taken thereafter from it. As the initial Oil stockpile was only tiny the lack of oil is almost immediate, if the oil stockpile is higher it takes a little time for this to happen but is nonetheless inevitable. - - - For both 1 and 3 the AI needs to be able to re-adjust convoys to take into account variable conditions AFTER the convoy is established, not simple at the point that it IS established. __________________ On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog...

10-01-2003, 14:19	#2
King Paradox QA Paradox Dev Team Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In Exile Posts: 9,713	1) & 3) being generic AI problems there is a not lot I can do with, excpet to say that they are working on it. For example the starting convoys are continually being tweeked and the Convoy managment AI is conitnually being worked. As for number 2. I am making enquireis about that. Should I get anything useful in response to these I will ofcourse let you know. __________________ Nostalgia is not as good as it used to be

10-01-2003, 19:36	#3
inahurry First Lieutenant Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 222	Wouldn't be just lo-ve-ly to have both fuel and oil. After all, feed tanks crude oil and they'll choke big time. Let's hope HoI2 will implement this. __________________ ...

10-01-2003, 21:19	#4
Darkmoor_Dragon First Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: GB Posts: 294	simple solution - and a lovely one! __________________ On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog...

11-01-2003, 07:04	#5
AngryJawaII Banned - Pirate! Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Next to my cpu in Canada Posts: 204	HoI2 why not just let them finish this one and maybe people will edit the game a little. Dont talk about HoI2 when this one isn't done and Crusades is in making.