King Saladin - conqurer of the Holyland

Mr.Motzfeldt · 04-01-2003, 14:17

In 1187 Saladin defeated the christian army and almost a 1000 templar knights, shortly after he conquered Jerusalem.

Read the story:
http://www.templarhistory.com/saladin.html

Is there other kings that has beatren the joined effort of the whole christian world?

Alexandru H. · 05-01-2003, 02:50

How about Mehmed II Fatih?

The sacking of Constantinopole, the war with Venice, the conquest of Otranto and the island of Negroponte, the annexation of Morea, Trapezunt, Karaman, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, Atena etc. made it very clearly for the Christian World that the East is no more a subject of their will, and even a great threat to their way of life. The era of Varna and Kosovopolje (great offensive campaigns) was over; the age of Rodos and Belgrad (sieges of "keys") began;

tuna · 05-01-2003, 10:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexandru H.
How about Mehmed II Fatih?

The sacking of Constantinopole, the war with Venice, the conquest of Otranto and the island of Negroponte, the annexation of Morea, Trapezunt, Karaman, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, Atena etc. made it very clearly for the Christian World that the East is no more a subject of their will, and even a great threat to their way of life. The era of Varna and Kosovopolje (great offensive campaigns) was over; the age of Rodos and Belgrad (sieges of "keys") began;

*nods* All the church bells in Rome tolled when the news of Mehmet the Conqueror's death reached the city. To be honest, the conquests of Selim the Grim outdid what Mehmet II had achieved, but those didn't really concern the Christian world (at least, not politically. The fall of Syria, Palestine and Egypt did have economical implications for the Western states)

w_mullender · 06-01-2003, 12:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Motzfeldt
In 1187 Saladin defeated the christian army and almost a 1000 templar knights, shortly after he conquered Jerusalem.

Read the story:
http://www.templarhistory.com/saladin.html

Is there other kings that has beatren the joined effort of the whole christian world?

Baibars (?sp) he basically removed the templars and hospitallers, while being disturbed by the mongols.

Endre Fodstad · 06-01-2003, 15:26

What is the point of this thread?

EF

PMLF · 06-01-2003, 15:59

Does anyone think Saladin reputation is quite overrated?

Sonny · 06-01-2003, 21:18

He certainly did a good job and was a hero of his time. So I say he deserves to have a good reputation.

Mr.Motzfeldt · 07-01-2003, 13:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Endre Fodstad
What is the point of this thread?

EF

To highlight conquerer of the christian world. King Saladin conquered the holy-land, and I just wondered if there were other none christian kings/army leaders who has won great battles against the christians.

Mr.Motzfeldt · 07-01-2003, 13:48

Quote:

Originally posted by PMLF
Does anyone think Saladin reputation is quite overrated?

Saladin never defeated Richard Lionheart in battle, they had a three year agreement concerning access to Jerusalem for pilgrims. Saladin died before Lionheart left the holy-land.

Admiral Yi · 07-01-2003, 22:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Motzfeldt
To highlight conquerer of the christian world. King Saladin conquered the holy-land, and I just wondered if there were other none christian kings/army leaders who has won great battles against the christians.

General Giap, Admirals Tojo and Yamamoto.

PMLF · 07-01-2003, 22:47

Attila was one of the first people to defeat Christian armies. As everyone know, in the 5th Century, the Roman Empire were already Christian.

Mr.Motzfeldt · 08-01-2003, 00:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Admiral Yi
General Giap, Admirals Tojo and Yamamoto.

Who where they?

(He said, aware of the answer might be a little obvious)

Havard · 08-01-2003, 02:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Motzfeldt
Who where they?

(He said, aware of the answer might be a little obvious)

Giap was hed of the Commie North in the Vietnam war, the Admirals are WW2 Japanese celebrities. They're... a bit outside the scope of this forum though

ZheShiWO · 08-01-2003, 08:09

Quote:

Is there other kings that has beatren the joined effort of the whole christian world?

The joined effor of the whole Christian world ? Not quite. Saladin re-captured the territory the muslims lost to the 1st Crusade but thats about it. Nothing even close to defeating 'the joint effort of the whole christian world'.

Quote:

Does anyone think Saladin reputation is quite overrated?

Yes and no.
Yes as in the conquest of the holy lands was no great feat of military strategy. He out numbered the Christians, he was infinitly richer then the Christians and the Christians were infinitly dumber. Reynourd anyone ?
No, because he was able to unite all the various Islamic cities and states under his rulership more or less. Then again he wasnt the first to do so as his uncles boss did it before him.

Quote:

Admirals Tojo and Yamamoto

Tojo was a general and then a Prime Minister.
And last time I checked the Americans still own japan.

Admiral Yi · 08-01-2003, 18:06

Quote:

Originally posted by ZheShiWO
Tojo was a general and then a Prime Minister.

My mistake. Meant Admiral Togo.

Mr.Motzfeldt · 08-01-2003, 20:15

Originally posted by ZheShiWO

...
Nothing even close to defeating 'the joint effort of the whole christian world'.
Either France, Germany or England could do anything with Saladin, those considered the strongest armies in Europe at that time.

Yes as in the conquest of the holy lands was no great feat of military strategy. He out numbered the Christians, he was infinitly richer then the Christians and the Christians were infinitly dumber. Reynourd anyone ?
...

The mamluks were feared warriors, and even the templar knights avoided an open-field attack on the mamluk horesmen. In 1260 the mamluks defeated the mongol forces in battle of Ayn Jalut.

Sonny · 08-01-2003, 20:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Motzfeldt
Saladin never defeated Richard Lionheart in battle, they had a three year agreement concerning access to Jerusalem for pilgrims. Saladin died before Lionheart left the holy-land.

Almost - Saladin died in 1193. Richard left the Holy Land before that. He was captured on the way home in December of 1192 IIRC.

Mr.Motzfeldt · 08-01-2003, 22:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Sonny
Almost - Saladin died in 1193. Richard left the Holy Land before that. He was captured on the way home in December of 1192 IIRC.

A close call.

ZheShiWO · 09-01-2003, 05:30

Quote:

Either France, Germany or England could do anything with Saladin, those considered the strongest armies in Europe at that time.

What does that mean ?
Did Saladin face the the full force of either German or French or English armies ? No. The Germans turned around and the French and British could only bring a limited number of trips since they used ships.

Quote:

The mamluks were feared warriors, and even the templar knights avoided an open-field attack on the mamluk horesmen.

Do you know why ? Because there were 100 Muslims for every 1 templar.

Quote:

In 1260 the mamluks defeated the mongol forces in battle of Ayn Jalut.

30,000 Vs 3,000 ? Not much of a feat.

Mr.Motzfeldt · 09-01-2003, 11:51

Originally posted by ZheShiWO
What does that mean ?
Did Saladin face the the full force of either German or French or English armies ? No. The Germans turned around and the French and British could only bring a limited number of trips since they used ships.
That's right, Saladin didn't meet the full force from the european armies. Europe didn't have the funding or the men to spend in a very expensive campaign in the holy-land.

Do you know why ? Because there were 100 Muslims for every 1 templar.
The mamluks had the fastest horses and weapons as good as the templars and they could use their weapons. The templars hesitated to start open filed combat against the faster mamluk cavalry, even if the numbers weren't that bad.

30,000 Vs 3,000 ? Not much of a feat.
The numbers there are highly uncertain, some sources say 10 000 mongols. The point is not numbers, it's the simple fact that the mamluks won over the mongols. Not just one hard fought victory at Ayn Djalut, the mongols were stopped by the mamluks and driven back through Syria and over Eufrat. The mongols never recaptured their lost land from the mamluks during their attempts to do so.
No other army in the world did drive the mongols back and hold the ground in the following mongol attacks.

04-01-2003, 14:17	#1
Mr.Motzfeldt First Lieutenant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norwegen Posts: 229	King Saladin - conqurer of the Holyland In 1187 Saladin defeated the christian army and almost a 1000 templar knights, shortly after he conquered Jerusalem. Read the story: http://www.templarhistory.com/saladin.html Is there other kings that has beatren the joined effort of the whole christian world? __________________ sulla lulla sulla, sov no godt

06-01-2003, 15:26	#5
Endre Fodstad War-mongering positivist Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Oslo Posts: 1,063	What is the point of this thread? EF __________________ Still carrying a bag of minced osteles-remains, which I will happily trade for Grimpagan's head. Ceterum censeo Leonardo da Vinci esse artifex I survived the horrors of Werewolf VI: Return to Castle Wolfenstein and the terrors of Werewolf IX: The Vinland Vikings

06-01-2003, 21:18	#7
Sonny Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind the curve Posts: 9,974	He certainly did a good job and was a hero of his time. So I say he deserves to have a good reputation. __________________ Live your life so the preacher won't have to lie at your funeral.

08-01-2003, 20:15	#16
Mr.Motzfeldt First Lieutenant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norwegen Posts: 229	Originally posted by ZheShiWO ... Nothing even close to defeating 'the joint effort of the whole christian world'. Either France, Germany or England could do anything with Saladin, those considered the strongest armies in Europe at that time. Yes as in the conquest of the holy lands was no great feat of military strategy. He out numbered the Christians, he was infinitly richer then the Christians and the Christians were infinitly dumber. Reynourd anyone ? ... The mamluks were feared warriors, and even the templar knights avoided an open-field attack on the mamluk horesmen. In 1260 the mamluks defeated the mongol forces in battle of Ayn Jalut. __________________ sulla lulla sulla, sov no godt

09-01-2003, 11:51	#20
Mr.Motzfeldt First Lieutenant Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norwegen Posts: 229	Originally posted by ZheShiWO What does that mean ? Did Saladin face the the full force of either German or French or English armies ? No. The Germans turned around and the French and British could only bring a limited number of trips since they used ships. That's right, Saladin didn't meet the full force from the european armies. Europe didn't have the funding or the men to spend in a very expensive campaign in the holy-land. Do you know why ? Because there were 100 Muslims for every 1 templar. The mamluks had the fastest horses and weapons as good as the templars and they could use their weapons. The templars hesitated to start open filed combat against the faster mamluk cavalry, even if the numbers weren't that bad. 30,000 Vs 3,000 ? Not much of a feat. The numbers there are highly uncertain, some sources say 10 000 mongols. The point is not numbers, it's the simple fact that the mamluks won over the mongols. Not just one hard fought victory at Ayn Djalut, the mongols were stopped by the mamluks and driven back through Syria and over Eufrat. The mongols never recaptured their lost land from the mamluks during their attempts to do so. No other army in the world did drive the mongols back and hold the ground in the following mongol attacks. __________________ sulla lulla sulla, sov no godt

05-01-2003, 02:50	#2
Alexandru H. On Probation Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New thing. I'm busting chops. Posts: 4,411 Blog Entries: 9	How about Mehmed II Fatih? The sacking of Constantinopole, the war with Venice, the conquest of Otranto and the island of Negroponte, the annexation of Morea, Trapezunt, Karaman, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, Atena etc. made it very clearly for the Christian World that the East is no more a subject of their will, and even a great threat to their way of life. The era of Varna and Kosovopolje (great offensive campaigns) was over; the age of Rodos and Belgrad (sieges of "keys") began;

06-01-2003, 15:59	#6
PMLF Flamengo Fan Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rio de Janeiro (A Cidade Maravilhosa), Brazil Posts: 1,312	Does anyone think Saladin reputation is quite overrated?

07-01-2003, 22:47	#11
PMLF Flamengo Fan Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rio de Janeiro (A Cidade Maravilhosa), Brazil Posts: 1,312	Attila was one of the first people to defeat Christian armies. As everyone know, in the 5th Century, the Roman Empire were already Christian.