Exploring the limits of good taste

Chuikov · 01-09-2002, 11:01

Before I go any further, I would like to categorically state that I post this message in a spirit of good faith, not intending to challenge nor flaunt any rules, but simply wishing to see their definitions expanded, because right now a lot of questions are unanswered. In other words, if I'm doing something wrong, it wasn't intended so let me know and I'll stop! That means you, Uglyduck!

Put simply, I think we need a more clear outline of just what the rules are for 'questionable material' to be added on to HoI or used as background material to an AAR. Eventually, a lot of people are going to want to write AARs for Germany, or create a modification to add 'realism', and the issue will come up, so it's best to dispel all confusion as of right now. It's clear that:

1) The Swastika will not be tolerated, either as a subject of discussion in this forum or as a downloadable modification.

2) The Holocaust, Gulags, etc. will not be tolerated as a subject of discussion

3) Propaganda songs from the Third Reich will not be tolerated as downloadable material.

But there's still plenty that's left unclear. For example:

1) We can't talk about Holocaust, Gulags, etc., but can we post modifications which add them to the game on the forum (such as a 'Holocaust' event)?

Now, in the case of the Holocaust and other really extreme nasty stuff, common sense dictates the answer as 'no.' Other issues aren't quite as clear; the purges of Russian officers won't be in the game, but they aren't such a matter of public vilification that there would be a great outcry to a user mod adding them to the game. So would such a modification be tolerated on the forum?

2) In regards to Propaganda songs, what counts as a Nazi propaganda song? Obviously, the Horst Wessel lied is out, as well as any song celebrating the SS or SA, but there are quite a few German military songs of the period which make limited or no reference to Nazism. Are these blocked as well? Would the occasional reference to the Fuhrer be grounds for removal, or would it have to be something bigger?

3) About other nations that commited major atrocities almost as a matter of course; how far will propaganda material about THEM be tolerated? For example, will we be able to add propaganda posters from the Soviet Union or Japan to our AARs? If we write an AAR as Japan, would people be allowed to mention the Rape of Nanking while they're conquering China?

These are the big three that stick out in my head right now. Anyone else with similiar questions, please add them (if it's allowed), so we can get them ALL out of the way with now.

KBO · 01-09-2002, 19:30

I would also like some clarification on the rules.

AARs will be a real problem once the game is released. There will have to be some very, very strict rules for the AARs if we even have them.

*Vulture* · 01-09-2002, 20:32

We WILL have them... No need to deny it. AAR's are a part of this game, and of all Paradox' games. We do need very strict rules yes...

Chuikov, I think it's ok to talk about the Rape... Although it is a nasty thingie.

Disturbed · 01-09-2002, 21:14

As far as German war songs, There were several Naval Songs that were is use FAR before Nazism came about in Germany. It's just like the US Navy's Traditional Hymes.

But: I think to limit any Abuse of the rules, No Songs or Hymes Should be allowed as a mod to the game.

I also Think that this thread is right on the edge of getting us all pink cards...

KBO · 01-09-2002, 23:15

I'm curious what kind of music you'll have as an American.

'Das ver drikas ver das rikas faling da...um-pa-do...falig da'

I played a turn based strategy game with that line in it years ago, and for some reason its stuck with me the whole time. I hope you guys have good music, but I sure hope I don't get that uberannoying song stuck in my head for the next 5-6 years.

Bismarck · 02-09-2002, 00:57

I think that if the HoI AAR forum has the same quality of moderating that the other forums do, then we will generally be free to write as we please...

And I think that some of the above might depend on context as well.

M

Pwyll · 02-09-2002, 00:58

I am curious and maybe some of our German friends could enlighten me...but in the film industry...there have have been many films made where the use of said : flags or designs : were utilized in the movies. Now am I to understand that all of these movies would have been banned or heavily edited if viewed in Germany...even were it made in Hollywood... I think Schindlers List was viewed in Germany...we all know what that was about of course...but as long as it was not glorified...was it an okay subject

Gen. Suvorov · 02-09-2002, 07:26

Patric has previously stated that the line must be drawn somewhere, and the rule is: If the patch, AAR, HOI related material or even a fan site contains politically incorrect material then any link to the above mentioned material will be deleted and the thread closed.

This is going to be a STRATEGIC GAME and not the simulation of WW2, that is why I don't understand why you people have this tendency to speak and do all things taboo. And in case someone will want to slip a taboo subject into their AAR as Bismark suggested then you can rest assured that I do everything in my power to persuade UD to ban the violators WITHOUT WARNING. You must always remmember that a thread can take any course during a discussion and they always take an ugly one when the discussion is about WW2, therefore we will not risk and close all threads at our own discretion.

There should be no exploring. Thank you.

Uglyduck · 03-09-2002, 11:46

As an end note:-

Once the all clear to post AARs is given I will get the Paradox view on the above questions and make them clear to everyone.
I agree that the waters are muddy and need clarifying somewhat.
Just bear with us - I wont forget

01-09-2002, 11:01	#1
Chuikov Captain Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Kansas City, MO, USA Posts: 340	Exploring the limits of good taste Before I go any further, I would like to categorically state that I post this message in a spirit of good faith, not intending to challenge nor flaunt any rules, but simply wishing to see their definitions expanded, because right now a lot of questions are unanswered. In other words, if I'm doing something wrong, it wasn't intended so let me know and I'll stop! That means you, Uglyduck! Put simply, I think we need a more clear outline of just what the rules are for 'questionable material' to be added on to HoI or used as background material to an AAR. Eventually, a lot of people are going to want to write AARs for Germany, or create a modification to add 'realism', and the issue will come up, so it's best to dispel all confusion as of right now. It's clear that: 1) The Swastika will not be tolerated, either as a subject of discussion in this forum or as a downloadable modification. 2) The Holocaust, Gulags, etc. will not be tolerated as a subject of discussion 3) Propaganda songs from the Third Reich will not be tolerated as downloadable material. But there's still plenty that's left unclear. For example: 1) We can't talk about Holocaust, Gulags, etc., but can we post modifications which add them to the game on the forum (such as a 'Holocaust' event)? Now, in the case of the Holocaust and other really extreme nasty stuff, common sense dictates the answer as 'no.' Other issues aren't quite as clear; the purges of Russian officers won't be in the game, but they aren't such a matter of public vilification that there would be a great outcry to a user mod adding them to the game. So would such a modification be tolerated on the forum? 2) In regards to Propaganda songs, what counts as a Nazi propaganda song? Obviously, the Horst Wessel lied is out, as well as any song celebrating the SS or SA, but there are quite a few German military songs of the period which make limited or no reference to Nazism. Are these blocked as well? Would the occasional reference to the Fuhrer be grounds for removal, or would it have to be something bigger? 3) About other nations that commited major atrocities almost as a matter of course; how far will propaganda material about THEM be tolerated? For example, will we be able to add propaganda posters from the Soviet Union or Japan to our AARs? If we write an AAR as Japan, would people be allowed to mention the Rape of Nanking while they're conquering China? These are the big three that stick out in my head right now. Anyone else with similiar questions, please add them (if it's allowed), so we can get them ALL out of the way with now. __________________ Victoria Beta Tester

01-09-2002, 20:32	#3
Vulture Aerandir Eärfalas Moderator Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Antwerpen: 't Stad. En al de rest is parking. Posts: 31,883	We WILL have them... No need to deny it. AAR's are a part of this game, and of all Paradox' games. We do need very strict rules yes... Chuikov, I think it's ok to talk about the Rape... Although it is a nasty thingie. __________________ Omnia si perdis, famam servare memento Semper prorsum numquam retrorsum More spam, you die! Horribly, horribly!

01-09-2002, 21:14	#4
Disturbed je suis un fantôme Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Matalava Island, Papua New Guinea Posts: 568	As far as German war songs, There were several Naval Songs that were is use FAR before Nazism came about in Germany. It's just like the US Navy's Traditional Hymes. But: I think to limit any Abuse of the rules, No Songs or Hymes Should be allowed as a mod to the game. I also Think that this thread is right on the edge of getting us all pink cards... __________________ I remember when I was told a story of crushed velvet, candle wax, and dried up flowers. The figure on the bed all dressed up in roses, calling. beckoning to sleep, offering a dream.

02-09-2002, 00:57	#6
Bismarck ChancellAAR Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Finishing an unfinished piece of work.... but the bossa nova is through.... Posts: 1,751	I think that if the HoI AAR forum has the same quality of moderating that the other forums do, then we will generally be free to write as we please... And I think that some of the above might depend on context as well. M __________________ + + Member of the Agnostic Paradox Games Players' Club + + Enter a world of dynastic intrigue, holy war, and internectine murder in Cyprus- The Last Crusade. IT SHALL END SOON! ONE LAST CHAPTER! The Hearts of Iron Directory is open(and the link is finally updated): http://www.hoidirectory.tk "One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say." -Will Durant

02-09-2002, 00:58	#7
Pwyll Knight of the Road Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: In Exile Posts: 936	I am curious and maybe some of our German friends could enlighten me...but in the film industry...there have have been many films made where the use of said : flags or designs : were utilized in the movies. Now am I to understand that all of these movies would have been banned or heavily edited if viewed in Germany...even were it made in Hollywood... I think Schindlers List was viewed in Germany...we all know what that was about of course...but as long as it was not glorified...was it an okay subject __________________ Cymru am byth

01-09-2002, 19:30	#2
KBO 14 day suspension(UD) Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: In Hell, chasing She-Devils Posts: 305	I would also like some clarification on the rules. AARs will be a real problem once the game is released. There will have to be some very, very strict rules for the AARs if we even have them.

01-09-2002, 23:15	#5
KBO 14 day suspension(UD) Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: In Hell, chasing She-Devils Posts: 305	I'm curious what kind of music you'll have as an American. 'Das ver drikas ver das rikas faling da...um-pa-do...falig da' I played a turn based strategy game with that line in it years ago, and for some reason its stuck with me the whole time. I hope you guys have good music, but I sure hope I don't get that uberannoying song stuck in my head for the next 5-6 years.

02-09-2002, 07:26	#8
Gen. Suvorov Generalissimo Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: The Great New York. Posts: 1,896	Patric has previously stated that the line must be drawn somewhere, and the rule is: If the patch, AAR, HOI related material or even a fan site contains politically incorrect material then any link to the above mentioned material will be deleted and the thread closed. This is going to be a STRATEGIC GAME and not the simulation of WW2, that is why I don't understand why you people have this tendency to speak and do all things taboo. And in case someone will want to slip a taboo subject into their AAR as Bismark suggested then you can rest assured that I do everything in my power to persuade UD to ban the violators WITHOUT WARNING. You must always remmember that a thread can take any course during a discussion and they always take an ugly one when the discussion is about WW2, therefore we will not risk and close all threads at our own discretion. There should be no exploring. Thank you.

03-09-2002, 11:46	#9
Uglyduck Still Young at Heart! Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Anywhere I choose. Posts: 4,474	As an end note:- Once the all clear to post AARs is given I will get the Paradox view on the above questions and make them clear to everyone. I agree that the waters are muddy and need clarifying somewhat. Just bear with us - I wont forget