Germanicus Universalis?

chegitz guevara · Jul 23, 2002

Has anyone thought to create a version of the game from the fall of the Western Roman Empire to the time being in Imperium Francorum?

The Western Empire is in ruins, the Eastern Empire is battered, and soon Islam will crash against the shores of the Eastern Empire. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms of China! In America there are the Moche and Toltecs and others.

unmerged(1196) · Jul 24, 2002

Hmm... interesting idea.

After AoN gets out the door, I'd like to work on something like this.

Ichabod · Jul 24, 2002

Calm down there, chegitz

. Wilhelm of Prussia is working on a scenario from 751-1419. "Imperium Francorum Universalis."

chegitz guevara · Jul 24, 2002

Reread my initial post.

I mentioned IFU.

No, what I'm thinking of would take place from the fall of the Western Roman Empire, 476, to the begining of the IFU scenario. It was just an idea at first, but now I think I'd like to do it.

I'm not wedded to the dates. I definately would like to be able to play Attila the Hun.

unmerged(1015) · Jul 24, 2002

If you will create such a scenario i will help you for that. Maybe we can find a way to connect both scenarions although i think that would be a much hard way and kind of too much optimistic (takin same tags etc.) .
Im not so strong in your starting date but maybe both scenarios could harmonize and we got a nearly 1000 years Scenario

Volrath50 · Jul 25, 2002

Hmmm. I can just picture the Caliphate as being like Turkey/Russia/Spain and never getting to be as powerful as it did in real life, specifically with Spain.

chegitz guevara · Jul 25, 2002

Originally posted by Wilhelm of Prussia
Im not so strong in your starting date but maybe both scenarios could harmonize and we got a nearly 1000 years Scenario

Perhaps the year 209, following the Battle of Red Bluff in China that split the Empire into the Three Kingdoms. In the 250s we start the German invasions of the Roman Empire.

unmerged(1196) · Jul 25, 2002

Other possible dates:

542 - Justinian's Plague, the beginning of the end of the Eastern Roman Empire. (Also near the collapse of the Gupta Empire)

378 - Andrianople, the Visigoths destroy a Roman army, the worst defeat the Romans empire faced. A small pox epidemic just crushed the Roman populace. The beginning of the end fo the West.

229 - The collapse of the Parthian Empire.

320 - The accension of the Gupta Empire.
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One thing to keep in mind is that it is difficult to simulate nomadic peoples with EU's game engine. It would likely be easier to do the scenario, the later we start it.

chegitz guevara · Jul 26, 2002

I think we could do the nomads by changing their core provinces. Forcing them to keep moving in a certain direction.

The really hard thing is doing the nomadic invasions of China, as they come out of PTI. It could probably be done by granting independence to the nomads and declaring war.

How is the Great Wall of China gonna be simulated?

Oh, cool, just realized we'll be able to do King Arthur's realm.

unmerged(1196) · Jul 26, 2002

For nomads, my thoughts were to have culture change events, followed with revolt events.

Also, a lot of tribes were fairly fragmented. That might be a problem in certain instances.

How is the Great Wall of China gonna be simulated?

Huge fortifications, I suppose.

The really hard thing is doing the nomadic invasions of China, as they come out of PTI. It could probably be done by granting independence to the nomads and declaring war.

Sounds good to me.

Oh, cool, just realized we'll be able to do King Arthur's realm.

When was he king?

chegitz guevara · Jul 26, 2002

Originally posted by Ramo
When was he king?

Sometime between 480 and 540 AD. According to the historical sources, the Battle of Mt Badon took place in 500 AD, which was the 12th of his historic 12 battles. After that he spent about 40 years invading Gaul, before returning home to be killed in battle by Mordred.

His Kingdom was located between the Antonine and Hadrian walls. This was also the period that the Scotts were coming over from Ireland, but before the Welsh moved down into what is today Wales.

==============

I'm totally gonna do this. This is gonna be fun. This raises all sorts of questions, like how do we deal with technology? Which religions should be represented and how? (Catholicism, Arianism, Judaism, Sunni and Shia Islam, Zorastrianism, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddism, Confuscianism, Taoism?) What sorts of buildings should be able to be built?

chegitz guevara · Jul 26, 2002

I just watched Secrets of the Dead on PBS. Oh man, this is gonna be awesome.

In 535, Krakatoa blew itself apart, creating a mini-ice age, leading to plague in the Byzantine Empire, the overthrow of the Avars by the Turks, the former then starting their 4,000 mile trek to the West. In MesoAmerica, Teotihuacan a city of 125,000 collapses because of famine.

unmerged(1196) · Jul 26, 2002

Sometime between 480 and 540 AD. According to the historical sources, the Battle of Mt Badon took place in 500 AD, which was the 12th of his historic 12 battles. After that he spent about 40 years invading Gaul, before returning home to be killed in battle by Mordred.

His Kingdom was located between the Antonine and Hadrian walls. This was also the period that the Scotts were coming over from Ireland, but before the Welsh moved down into what is today Wales.

Ah, thanks.

This raises all sorts of questions, like how do we deal with technology?

For land tech, we could start infantry out as fairly powerful, and then increase the power of cavalry as we go to simulate the emergence of barbarians' light cavalry dominance and the Persian and later Byzantine heavy cavalry to deal with the threat.

Catholicism, Arianism, Judaism, Sunni and Shia Islam, Zorastrianism, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddism, Confuscianism, Taoism?

What should we do with Orthodox, Nestorian, and Monophysite Christianity? And will we keep Thervada and Mahayana Buddhism together?

Was Shiite Islam very popular before 714? And I thought the Arian contraversy pretty much died out in the 4th century. As for Judaism, I don't think it could be considered a "province religion" anywhere in the world unless we start really early. We could probably lump the Khazars in with the Monophysites.

What sorts of buildings should be able to be built?

I don't think we can change that.

In 535, Krakatoa blew itself apart, creating a mini-ice age, leading to plague in the Byzantine Empire,

The ice age lead to the bubonic epidemic?

chegitz guevara · Jul 26, 2002

Originally posted by Ramo
What should we do with Orthodox, Nestorian, and Monophysite Christianity? And will we keep Thervada and Mahayana Buddhism together?

As I understand it, Ortohodxy didn't exist until the 11th or 12th Century when Rome and Constantinople split. I don't know anything about the other forms of X-ianity.

Was Shiite Islam very popular before 714?

The Fatimids who took over Egypt follwing the death of th Prophet were Shiites, IIRC.

And I thought the Arian contraversy pretty much died out in the 4th century.

That still gives us almost 100 yeras to deal with it. Also, the Arian heresey was very important. The Vandals, for instance, refused to convert to Catholicism and persecuted Catholics, up to the sacking of Rome.

As for Judaism, I don't think it could be considered a "province religion" anywhere in the world unless we start really early. We could probably lump the Khazars in with the Monophysites.

Maybe, but they're including Judaism in IFU, so I thought we might also.

The ice age lead to the bubonic epidemic?

Lowered temperatures are directly linked to the plague. The bubunic bacillus causes a blockage in flea guts that leads them to be ravenously hungry, so that they bite anything to get blood (humans are not a prefered choice for fleas). This only occurs below 27 celcius. Indications are the the plague spread out of central Africa and came to Constantinople via boat.

The fall of the Britons after King Arthur's death can also be attributed to plague, as they had regular contact with the Roman Empire. They were hit by the plague, while the Angles and Saxons weren't. In addition, the cooling of the planet severely crippled most urban societies, such as the Britons who depended on agriculture, while hunter gatherers were not so greatly affected (except those dependent primarily on horses, such as the Avars).

unmerged(1196) · Jul 26, 2002

As I understand it, Ortohodxy didn't exist until the 11th or 12th Century when Rome and Constantinople split.

Well, the formal split occured in the 11th century, but I think they could be considered seperate religions well before.

I don't know anything about the other forms of X- ianity.

By the end of the scenario (before the Arab invasions), the Monophysites controlled Syria, Egypt, and Oxum. The Nestorians controlled Mesopatamia and various other parts of the Persian empire. We could probably dump the Nestorians if we need to.

Basically, the Christian churches had the same problems with these sects as Arianism.

The Fatimids who took over Egypt follwing the death of th Prophet were Shiites, IIRC.

I thought the Fatimids took over Egypt in the 9th century...

That still gives us almost 100 yeras to deal with it. Also, the Arian heresey was very important.

So we're starting in the 3rd century?

The Vandals, for instance, refused to convert to Catholicism and persecuted Catholics, up to the sacking of Rome.

True... But we only have 11 religion tags. We have to maximize their use. Maybe we could have a generic 'Heretical Christiantiy' religion to represent all non-Catholic/Orthodox variants?

Maybe, but they're including Judaism in IFU, so I thought we might also.

I really doubt that we can pull off a successful bridge between the two scenarios. There are a bunch of things that can't be changed by events: religion types, province economies, technologies, country tags, etc.

Lowered temperatures are directly linked to the plague. The bubunic bacillus causes a blockage in flea guts that leads them to be ravenously hungry, so that they bite anything to get blood (humans are not a prefered choice for fleas). This only occurs below 27 celcius.

Hmm... very interesting. I would've thought freezing temperatures would kill off the rats and fleas and hurt the spread of the bacillus.

The fall of the Britons after King Arthur's death can also be attributed to plague, as they had regular contact with the Roman Empire. They were hit by the plague, while the Angles and Saxons weren't. In addition, the cooling of the planet severely crippled most urban societies, such as the Britons who depended on agriculture, while hunter gatherers were not so greatly affected (except those dependent primarily on horses, such as the Avars).

Yep, same thing with the Persians.

Truchses · Jul 27, 2002

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

How is the Great Wall of China gonna be simulated?

Originally posted by Ramo

Huge fortifications, I suppose.

The Great Wall is the PTI behind him. It's no use to simulate it. Nobody can get over this PTI-wall. Huns, Turks, Tatars, Mongols, whatever must march around them, from north over Manjuria, or from west over Dsungaria.

I suggest using the sibirian region for the nomad's homelands.

Truchses · Jul 27, 2002

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

I'm totally gonna do this. This is gonna be fun. This raises all sorts of questions, like how do we deal with technology?

Maybe giving all tech groups a heavy malus, so they don't develope fire weapons. On the other side, there could be artillery but with catapults instead of guns.

Truchses · Jul 27, 2002

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Which religions should be represented and how? (Catholicism, Arianism, Judaism, Sunni and Shia Islam, Zorastrianism, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddism, Confuscianism, Taoism?) What sorts of buildings should be able to be built?

Heathenism for Germans and Celts.
Shamanism for the steppe nomads.
If you start earlier then the romans and greeks would also still be pagans - I can only call this roman paganism and greek paganism for I never heard a name for them, but they can be sticked together to one religion, like celtic and german paganism to heathenism.

Truchses · Jul 27, 2002

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

As I understand it, Ortohodxy didn't exist until the 11th or 12th Century when Rome and Constantinople split. I don't know anything about the other forms of X-ianity.

318 - 381 AD: Arianic dispute.

Arius of Alexandria says: Christus has been created, so is not eternal and different from his father.

Athanasius says: the son is equal to god.

325: The church follows Athanasius.

Most german tribes that converted from heathenism to christianity converted first to arianism and became arians (arian christens); the first tribe were the goths. Several tribes were probably still arians in the 5th century.

St. Leo · Jul 27, 2002

Pagan (Catholic)
Aryan Catholic (Orthodox)
Roman Catholic (Protestant)
Orthodox (Reform)
Muslim (Sunni)
Judaistic (Shiite)
Neo-Platonist (CRC)

Germanicus Universalis?

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