EU2-Con or AAR-Con *Please Read*

[MrT]

Hi all.

Last Friday, Lord Durham and I had another of our memorable “milk & cookies” sessions. We were joined, on the occasion, by a couple other local players as well, and the four of us had a lively conversation that went all over the place…EU II, history of the period, MP games, strategy, you name it.

Once of the ideas that came up was that it would be really fun to have a “convention” where EU players from around the world would get together and have a grand ol’ time. In particular, it would be great to put a face to the names we’re all familiar with on the AAR forum and to have a damn good party! I’ve got some considerable experience in organizing this sort of thing for my dart league so I’ve been thinking about it over the weekend. Here are some thoughts that I wanted to bounce off the board-members to gauge their interest.

First off, where better to have a party/convention than Toronto?

Advantages:

• - weak currency – compared to the Euro and US green-back, the Canadian currency goes a long way.
  - many sights – historical sights are virtually non-existent (we’ve babies compared to European cities), but we do have such things as the CN Tower, a world-class museum and art gallery, great shopping, and we’re only an hour-and-a-bit’s drive from Niagara Falls
  - world-class cuisine – Toronto boasts one of the best diversities of cuisine in North America. Whatever your pleasure, it’s available somewhere in the city
  - cheapish alcohol and cigarettes – requires no further comment.
  - “central” – Toronto is moderately “central” in that we’re about the same distance from the west coast of the USA as we are from the west coast of Europe. That means that the travel wouldn’t be too horrible. Toronto International Airport serves most major North American and European airports with direct flights (NY, Chicago, Denver, LAX, Heathrow, Paris, Munich, Madrid, Rome, and probably Stockholm, Copenhagen, etc.)
  - easy accommodations – Toronto is literally filled with hotels!
  - The people – heck, it’s Canada. Everyone likes Canadians

Disadvantages:

• - other than being a 6-8 hour plane ride from Europe, name one!

So…what we were talking about was hosting a EU2-Con or AAR-Con and inviting all of our many friends from around the world to come and have one great big whoop-up of a party.

Having some experience in organizing things like this, it would take quite some considerable planning so we’re not talking about hosting it next week or even next month. Depending on how many people would be interested, it might take 6-9 months to put together (the bigger it is, the longer it would take to put together). It would also depend on just how “fancy” people would want it to be. Arranging some meeting rooms and a few dinners/”events” would be easy. I have some excellent contacts if we’re doing it “on the cheap” since I’m a member of the Royal Canadian Legion (RCL) and can get discounted rates on their halls. I’ve also arranged larger events (for 300-500 people) in hotels which is considerably more expensive but more like a traditional convention. My preference would be for a low-key affair…

Thoughts about hosting a “low-key” convention itself…

The “organized” portion of the 3-day event would run from a Friday afternoon through to the subsequent Sunday afternoon. I imagine that anyone who’s travelling any great distance would be coming for longer than the three days, so that would still give you plenty of time to poke around the city or continue your tour of this part of Canada from here.

Side note based on experience: Many Eurpoeans have little concept of the size of Canada. Be warned: Canada is HUGE. Don’t expect to drive coast to coast in a week, or to “pop over” to Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax, or Vancouver for a day or two. Ottawa is a 4-5 hour drive, Montreal is a 5-6 hour drive (1+ hour plane flight), Halifax is about a 25-hour drive (3+ hour plane ride) and Vancouver is a 5-7 day drive (5+ hour flight)…and that’s without doing any sight-seeing.

Anyway…the following based on about 25-75 interested people, max 125 but could be expanded.

Friday early afternoon: arrive, check in to your hotel, freshen up, etc.

Friday
5:30PM – meet at my local RCL for pre-dinner drinks. If we work out a hotel deal, we could arrange for a bus to take us from the hotel to the legion (which is east-end of Toronto).
6:30PM – “Welcome dinner” at the RCL
9:00PM – If we are lucky enough to interest Paradox in this conference and they have a representative who comes to the “convention”, this would be an ideal opportunity for them to showcase stuff that they’re working on.
10:00PM – Depending on whether people are bringing wives/girlfriends/significant others…could have a “dance”, but I get the sense that if you’re not bringing a date this would be a flop! It would probably make more sense to just treat the evening as a “get to know another” opportunity. We’d be in the Toronto “Beaches” area so there are plenty of opportunities to go bar-hopping, walk on the beach, of stay at the legion and get good and pissed on cheap booze.

Saturday
Morning/Afternoon:
If most people are staying at the same hotel, I would book a few conference rooms. One or two could be set up with a bunch of rental computers networked together for some MP games. It might even be possible to organize some sort of day-long “tournament” or something like that.

One room could be set aside for a “speaker series” of lectures or discussion groups. Possible subjects of 1-2 hour sessions…(I’m not suggesting all of them…just tossing out ideas)

• - AAR writer’s workshop 101 – discuss various techniques, styles, etc. to get newbies started
  - AAR writer’s workshop 201 – discuss advanced writing techniques, styles, etc.
  - Game play 101 – discuss basic play techniques, strategies, etc.
  - Game play 201 – discuss advanced tactics – possibly country-specific or region-specific
  - Game play 202 – how to conquer the world
  - Game play 203 – how to play, not to conquer the world but more “in character”
  - Events 101 – a basic how-to on scripting your own events
  - Events 201 – more advanced discussion on event scripting
  - History 101 – a basic overview of world history from 1419 – 1819
  - History 201 – maybe pick a few regions and have a more in-depth look at their history
  - Paradox – If we are so lucky as to have someone from Paradox and/or Snowball there, this could be a round-table session to brainstorm, get direct user feedback, etc.
  - Add your own suggestions…

These could either be in “lecture” format, or in a moderated round-table discussion group.

Somewhere in there we’d break for a simple lunch – burgers, hot dogs, sandwiches, salad, etc. Cheap and easy…

Then…

4:00PM – “National” receptions: each country or region that is attending could have a mini-party of their own in order to get a break from speaking English for a while, and to plot how to conquer the world from your own back yard.

6:00PM – Pre-dinner “cocktails” and then dinner - wherever the dinner is arranged. This could be a fancier meal at the hotel, or a less extravagant affair back at the legion.

9:00PM – “Awards” presentation. An opportunity to present a few “awards” to recognise some members for their contributions. I’m thinking of something like having trophies for the OscAAR winners, the MP tournament winner (if we have one), recognising people who have put time and effort into all the information available in the FAQ forum, and stuff like that. Not a huge set of awards, anyway.

10:00PM – continue the party, go on a pub crawl, whatever…

Sunday

Morning:
Some more MP play in the conference rooms? More “speakers’ sessions”? Recover from the night before?

1:00PM – a “farewell luncheon”? An informal get-together to say goodbye to one another. Maybe decide whether to do try arranging another one of these things.

After that, people who are leaving would check out of the hotel and make their way to the airport. People who are staying would be “on their own”.

Other

I could also set up a Thursday/early-Friday or Monday sight-seeing trip to Niagara Falls for one or more of these days. Depending on the time of year (see below) there could also be something like an evening going to see one of Toronto’s teams (hockey/baseball/basketball?) or theatre productions (Toronto has the 2nd most active theatre community in North America, next to Broadway in NYC). All of that would depend on interest and would be worked out before-hand.

AND NOW FOR THE BIG QUESTION:

How much is this gonna cost?

That’s a tough one. It all depends on how many people are interested and what kind of scale they’d like. Here are some approximations (all figures in Canadian dollars):

Hotel:
Average room rates in downtown Toronto are $150-$200 per night (even discounted). Willingness to hold the event in hotels near the airport or in the city “outskirts” would drop this to $80-$120 per night…but then you’re looking at a $30-$40 cab fare if you want to go downtown. There is, of course, public transport at low cost ($2-$3 per trip – each way) or you can rent a car for ~$40 per day + gas (at $0.70 per litre). With enough people, renting a couple mini-vans or arranging for a bus would become economical.

Food/Booze:
Excluding alcohol, a hotel-catered dinner is about $50-$60 per plate. In comparison, the RCL’s Women’s Auxiliary at my legion does quite a respectable catering job for about $20 per plate. Not as fancy, but decent.

Hotel breakfasts are usually about $10-$20, but there are plenty of fast food joints and “greasy spoons” that serve a decent breakfast for well under $10. I didn’t include any breakfast “events” in the above so you’d be on your own.

Lunches would depend on what’s wanted. Hotels charge quite a lot ($30+ per) whereas the RCL’s WA would do simple stuff for $5. I could also arrange for submarine sandwiches or something like that at under $10 each.

Liquor is another reason to consider the RCL. Beer is $3-$4 per bottle at a legion and booze is no more than $5 per shot. The down side is that you can’t get specialty or import stuff – just common Canadian domestic brands of beer and the common liquors. A hotel would be able to supply a broader range but the drink prices are about double. At organized events it’s possible to get a liquor license and arrange for your own bartender at a lower cost, but it usually results in a higher conference room rental fee. BYOB (bring your own booze) is illegal in Ontario in an organized event, but perfectly acceptable in smaller hotel-room parties.

Conference Room and Banquet Room:
Again, if we don’t want anything fancy then this is relatively cheap to arrange at a legion. I’d have to research it a bit, but I’d estimate that the weekend’s requirements would be about $2000 total cost if done at a hotel. I might be able to get the same thing for about $300 from the RCL – maybe even for free. Whatever the cost, this would be split between attendees based on an estimate of the numbers.

Computer/Network Rental
If we try the MP conference-room set-up, there would be the cost of renting computers, routers, etc and setting up the networks. With some volunteer labour, this shouldn’t be too bad but I’d have to investigate the per-computer cost and this would be spread out amongst the participants.

Trophies
As long as we are content with “basic” stuff, I can get engraved trophies for $10-$30 depending on style, construction (I organize our dart league’s trophies each year and get a really good wholesale deal from a manufacturer). More exotic stuff can easily top $100. This cost (if we do it) would be split amongst attendees.

Other
Airport-to-hotel transportation (and visa versa) is sometimes offered at no charge by the hotel. Taxi service would be $25-$40 depending on the location of the airport. Other arrangements (a rental mini-van) might be possible – depending on interest. Also note that there is an airport “improvement” fee of $10 (I think) per person, paid on departure. It’s being used to build a shiny new terminal (to replace the 2 older of the 3 we currently have).

Cigarettes – for us smokers – currently cost about $7.50 per 25-pack. Toronto now has some fairly strict anti-smoking by-laws for rooms so I’d need to determine what the requirements are. The RCL is not bound by these by-laws. (Also: being the backward little nation that we are, be aware that narcotics and the sex trade are strictly controlled/forbidden – not as harshly as Taiwan or Turkey, but I would strongly advise against even thinking about it. ‘Nuff said…)

Eating at most mid-range Toronto restaurants would run about $20-30 in food. There are tons of places that are both cheaper and more expensive. Standard gratuity (“tip”) for a server is 15% on top of the meal cost. Most places automatically add a gratuity charge for parties of 6+ people.

Sales Taxes in Ontario are 15% ( 7% to the federal government and 8% to the provincial). Alcohol and cigarettes are taxed at a higher rate. I’ve included the taxes in all of the figures I’ve estimated here.

Last, but not least, this would be a not-for-profit event, so once the final costs are tallied a detailed accounting would be presented and any excess funds would either be reimbursed, used to buy some free booze for the Saturday dinner, or carried forward for use in a future event.

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Summary

All in all, the cost of the weekend could cover a huge price range, and a great deal of it would depend on the number of people who are interested and just what they want/expect. There are a bunch of break-points in organizing something like this which are determined by how big a room you need, how many meals are served, and stuff like that.

If the numbers are small, it might be possible to arrange for “billeted” accommodation at the houses of people who live in the area – essentially free if everyone can fit in the number of houses we have available (as soon as you exceed that, however, you get into hotel rates for everyone). Also, if we had small numbers we could forego “banquet” halls and catering and simply pick a restaurant and reserve a party table or two, and we might be able to figure out a way to reduce or eliminate the “conference room” costs if we forego setting up MP and adjust the schedule to simply use the “club room” at my legion.

As soon as the numbers get larger, though, you’re looking at more “formal” facilities, resulting in a jump in the costs. As the numbers rise further, the cost per head drops…

Doing it all at a hotel with 100+ people would probably get pretty close to $1000 a head (+ booze). Doing it as cheaply as possible, with smaller numbers could end up being as little as $200 or $300 (+ booze). Your airfare, of course, would be on top of this.

I can’t tell you what the exact time frame would be. If it’s a handful of people then it could easily be “organized” in a matter of a month. Anything “bigger” and you’re talking months of planning and arrangements. If it’s fewer than 20 people then it could conceivably be a September, October or November thing – depending on preference. With more than that, late April – June ’03 would be more realistic (trust me, you don’t really want to visit Toronto during the winter!).

Needless to say, the bigger it is, the more time/work would be involved and the more volunteers would be required.

So…

- Does any of this interest anyone in the slightest?

- Is it worth discussing/investigating/pursuing/planning further or is this just a stupid pipe dream?

- How “open” should it be? Should the idea be “pitched” to include all of the forums, expanding the “discussion” sessions to include the GD, EEP, OT-PM, HOI, CK, etc forums…?

- Does this violate any of Paradox’s guidelines? (As long as it’s non-profit it probably doesn’t…)

- Should a moderator just delete this post to free up space on the Paradox server?

[Norgesvenn]

I am, as stated in Lord Durham's celebration thread, very interested.

Firstly, I've never been to Canada, and I may never have another chance, given that I smoke that much...
Secondly, with that long a time to plan ahead, even I should manage to actually get something done.


The whole concept sounds very good to me, and I for one (despite being low paid) would manage the costs rather well. The Norwegian currency is among the strongest in Europe these days, so I suppose I'd better get some Cannuck dollars right away... (eh?)

Good idea! Count old Norgesvenn in as "more than interested"... (if you're categorising)

[Craig Ashley]

I'm definately interested in this! I would suggest a low-key affair. Nothing too fancy. I for one would love to meet the faces behind all this excellent work.

As far as AAR or EU goes, my gut instinct says AAR, but EU would be bigger and maybe more economical. So either one works for me.

Just out of curiousity, what's the exchange rate btween American and Canadian dollars?

[Lord Durham]

Christ, MrT! You're like a badger in a burrow. It didn't take you long to crank something out.

Keep the other idea under wraps for now, though...

Craig, the exchange rate sucks for us, but is great for you. It's something like $1.45 to the loonie, subject to tech company bankruptcies, of course...

[Prufrock451]

At this very moment, Mr. Washingon will bring in 1.56 bucks Canadien.

Hm. I am seriously considering this. My position in 6-9 months would be better. However, it occurs to me that 6-9 months from now, Toronto will be locked in the wintry grasp of... uh... winter.

For those of us mulling the possibility of driving, what's the cost of gasoline up thar these days?

[Warspite]

I will definately like to go to Toronto for the EUII/AAR gathering. I fly for free so I wont be using the package, I like to sleep in shacks so I wont need the hotel and my diet is mainly rice and pasta so the $50 plate is a bit much for me

Ill be there friends.

I am glad you are working on this, we have a great community with EUII and it would be nice to see some sort of gathering or convention. Maybe Paradox will like to get involved directly?

[AugCaesar]

hot damn sales tax is heavy in Toronto LOL

I'm interested tho

[Backpack]

MrT, The amount of work you do for this forum is amazing.
I think it would be very interesting to meet the other AAR writers face to face.

However, I would probably balk at the pricetag since I have explored Toronto, Niagara Falls, etc before. Now if the conference were in Ireland, the tourism + meeting the other AAR writers would be well worth it. I know Toronto is the only practical place (just wishful thinking on my part).

Although, just a thought here....PAUSE *opens up another window and goes to a Favorites link*.... Saturday November 30th might be a possibility for a mini get together. Can anyone say Buffalo vs. Toronto in the Air Canada Center? I could feasibly go home for Thanksgiving (US holiday 28 Nov) and make a trip up to Toronto on the 30th for dinner, milk & cookies, and the game followed by a victory celebration (by somebody). Then it would be off to a hotel to crash with a drive back the next day. What do you guys think?

[King Of Nines]

bah, thanksgiving would be bad for me, since as of right now, i'd have to be back at work the day after turkey day. i would be interested, though my attendence would hinge on dates and times, of course.

[Backpack]

Originally posted by King Of Nines
bah, thanksgiving would be bad for me, since as of right now, i'd have to be back at work the day after turkey day. i would be interested, though my attendence would hinge on dates and times, of course.

I just proposed that as an unofficial get together for a small group of hockey and EUII fans since I most likely won't be attending the "official" party. Sorry if my first post was a little confusing. I tend to ramble sometimes.

As MrT stated, Toronto in the winter is not a pretty. This is very, very true. The warmer months are nice though.

[Norgesvenn]

Originally posted by Backpack

As MrT stated, Toronto in the winter is not a pretty. This is very, very true. The warmer months are nice though.

Bah! American sissies dunno nuttin' 'bout weather! When I was little, it was so cold yer urine froze before it hit the ground. That was indoors, mind you!

[MrT]

Well, if we're looking at 10-20 people then it could be done this fall on a very economical scale. US Thanksgiving weekend would be do-able though I wouldn't envy you US-types the mess in your respective airports.

More than that, or with a European contingent being interested in coming over, I can't see much likelihood of holding it until after the new year. As I said in the original post, you don't want to make (what for some of you would be) your first trip to Canada a winter visit. I'd go for late April 2003 to be safe since the weather is usually getting quite nice by then. May would be better.

I'm still wracking my brains for ways to make it cheaper, but I need a better idea of how many might be interested before I start calling around...


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Let's see now, specific responses to people's points/questions sp far...

Norg.: I'll take that as a "yes" for spring.

Craig: LD and Prufrock sound like they're far appart. I think if you're buying Canadian dollars with US currency, you'd be lucky to get more than $1.50 for a greenback. If you wait a bit (until after the current economic mess in the US has resolved itself with a lot of execs being fired and charged with fraud) it will probably get better.

LD: Nope. I'll let you spring that one on them.

Prufrock: Gas...regular unleaded is about CAD$0.70/L which I *think* works out to about USD$1.50/gallon. Don't quote me on that though. For most average newer model cars, you'd expect to get about 300-350 miles on a USD$25.00 fill-up.

Warspite: Yeah. Frankly my preference would be to do it simply and cheaply too, which I why I suggested the legion. I had thanksgiving and Christmas dinners there last year and they were quite respectable meals for $20 (and the women's auxillary made a bit of a profit to help the legion ). They also have 3 floors, so we could actually hold the whole thing there and we'd only have to pay for the bar stewart. Fortunately, several of my good friends are bar stewarts there so I could probably get them to work for tip money only (as long as we drink) and as a member, I get a great discount. All that would remain is the flight and hotel room cost.

AugC.: Yep. High and visible...unlike many countries where it's either hidden in the price, or you pay massive amounts of state and federal income tax instead. Hey...come to think of it, I also pay massive amounts of income tax.

Backpack: Even if it ends up being some other time, the door's always open! Just let us know when you're coming.

(For that matter, I think it's safe to say the same thing to anyone planning to come to Toronto).

[kurtbrian]

I'm getting very jealous of you guys.

I'm gettin a 'all alone in the world feeling' since I can't afford a trip over the atlantic and I don't like to travel.

and hearing about how you guys are going to meet and have some sort of bonding makes me kind of


But I think that it is a great idea and I would have loved to meet all you AAR'ers who's work I enjoy reading.

[Rictus]

I'm just a poor, young, handsome student. But 600(+airfare) sounds reasonable. Much more than that and I start needing to call in favours. I'd strongly want to go in April or even later (i'm not a good organiser).

Holy cow! Something just accured to me: whats the Canadian drinking age?

[MrT]

Originally posted by Rictus
I'm just a poor, young, handsome student. But 600(+airfare) sounds reasonable. Much more than that and I start needing to call in favours. I'd strongly want to go in April or even later (i'm not a good organiser).

Holy cow! Something just accured to me: whats the Canadian drinking age?

Good point. The minimum drinking age is 19 in Ontario, and the RCL is required to uphold that one - though anyone of any age can enter the legion as the guest of a member. It varies by province, though, with some of the more liberated provinces allowing age 18, and the more uptight ones making you wait until you're 21. Get some good fake ID if you're under 19 and don't shave between now and then.

Edit: just checked your profile...you'll be okay if we have it in April. I'll even buy you a beer to celebrate your birthday (if you buy me one to celebrate mine ).

[Rictus]

Originally posted by MrT

Edit: just checked your profile...you'll be okay if we have it in April. I'll even buy you a beer to celebrate your birthday (if you buy me one to celebrate mine ).

Just checked your profile, and the answer is: You're on

[Norgesvenn]

What's "drinking age"? Could I get younger by drinking...? Or would I get older? What sort of chemicals do they put in Canadian beers???



Yep, I'm all ready for a trip across the pond in the spring. Which reminds me... I'd better start saving.


Anyway, this is an absolutely brilliant initiative, MrT and LD! I once more salute you for making this forum even more enjoyable...

*drools*

Mmmm.... Toronto.... hey... maybe I could reclaim Newfoundland for the Norwegian crown? Sort of "reconquista" of Vinland, likes...

[shawng1]

I'd be interested, but Thanksgiving is going to be a VERY bad time for me. Early Spring (like say, Spring Break) would be the best time for me. I'd have to run it by the wifey, who'd almost certainly not be interested. But I think I could arrange something for her to do.

I'd have to agree with the lower-budget approach, as if this started to get into the $500 (US) range my wife would beat me over the head for even suggesting it. But if it can be done with reasonable economy at a time when I'm not already obligated to do something else, I'm game.

[Prufrock451]

I must also argue against a Thanksgiving date.

1) Cold in Iowa. Therefore, bitch-ass cold in Toronto. QED.

2) I'm an American. My Thanksgiving is set aside for family, prayer, and Twilight Zone marathons on TV.

3) I'm using up my vacation time for the calendar year going to Virginia in October.

[heagarty]

This is intriguing. I've got some employees from Toronto and they are always talking about what a wonderful city it is. I've never been to Canada, but Toronto (and Vancouver) have always been on my "places to go" list.

For me, the fall/winter works better than the spring due to work conflicts. The price seems about right. I may even be able to subsidize my trip by bringing cartons of cheap Carolina smokes and selling them at a 50% markup, still cheaper than anything in Canada or Europe!

The program T has presented looks great. There hasn't been as much comment on that, but I think it's a great offering of activities. Some of them might be restricted by the number of participants, but over all I think this is an agenda that could attract a lot of folks.

I agree that a "dance" would probably flop, based on what appears to an almost all-guy invitation list. Most wives/girlfriends/signifcant others would probably appreciate a nice dinner out as opposed to a dance. And based on the almost all-guy EU community demographic, I'm not sure how many single women we would draw to the convention. We'd probably see more women bar hopping. Or bar-sliding, if we're up there during the winter!

Keep me on the interested list. Work limits my availability, but if the dates work out I'd love to be there.