Ancient Map (WIP) - Comments needed

Molleby · 01-11-2007, 12:32

So while I'm waiting for Rome to get out, or AI files to become moddable in EU3, I've begun to work on my ancient map again, which there has been some interest in recently. As I reopened the file, it struck me that I might have too many provinces in Greece and other places, and maybe too few in other areas. However, I am not sure where or why, and since my ancient knowledge is getting a little rusty, I was hoping that the good people here could throw some tips my way. Also I could need tips concerning system perfomance matters in connection with the outline of maps and provinces and so on

Edit: this map is mainly for the time period 500-340 BC

Current state of the project
begun RGB-coding for all provinces
Main Greece + islands + rest of Athenian empire done

(posted 25th of January, have had to make it a .jpg because of size limits in imageshack)

Maladict · 01-11-2007, 17:54

That's a LOT of poleis.
Might be tough to balance them against such a small part of Persia?
It looks like tremendous fun to play though

Amob_m_s · 02-11-2007, 23:44

My thoughts are similar: the Greeks, on that map, would by sheer force of numbers overpower the Persians and Italians (Etruscans, etc).

Also, although 500-340 is fine, you may want to extend it back further to capture the Greek Renaissance period, so 600-700 BC start date.

If you want a great game that used a similar concept, check out Spartan, as well as its predecessor (one of my all-time favorite games, beats the Total War series into the dirt like a chihuahua under the heels of a canophobic postman) called Chariots of War (both by slitherine), for info on the area farther east. Your map really does resemble the maps in those games- TONS of provinces, suitable for tons of tiny little city states.

Screenshots:

CoW

Spartan

In any case, what you have looks great, I love the detail- it just may need to have that level ofdetail extended further east, and maybe north too.

I'll be following this mod.

Grumblefish · 13-11-2007, 04:12

Hey, I made a thread about this era in the Rome forum, and after seeing this thread I thought I better post a link:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...31#post7702631

As for the Sparta game posted above me... I will say the map is nice, but much of the game is lacking (diplomacy? forget it. Delian/Peloponnesian league? forget it. Economic and political differences between the city-states? Forget it, they're all practically the same). There needs to be mods for that game, or a major overhaul*.

*I've only played the demo, so if the full version is a lot different, please tell me, because I love the time-period, but I was very, very disappointed in that game.

yupa · 13-11-2007, 12:02

I am a partisant of : It's not because is take place long time ago that the usefull map should be small.
at the period of Greek, they are Egyptian, Indian, American, Chinese... I like very much the "Universalis" of Europa, and i think this is the major quality of the game.
Well, of course, you have to add small provinces, but especialy in the history, everything is connected. And the Ionien invasion will be connected with Hittites, and them will connected with Egyptian, and egyptian will be conquered by Assyrian, Who take his power on Babylon and Elam, And the Medes will conquered and destroy Assyria. And then Perses will take control of Medes, And the Maurya Empire in India... And in the west, they are disputed control between greek colony and etruscan. the power of many city states of greece have a direct link with this...
And the Carthage conquered some part of etruscan ( like Corsica ) and they take her strong on control of Spain...
= And this is only for BCE... after, no need to make a draw, with HunnicS empire

Amob_m_s · 18-11-2007, 23:09

Yeah, especially in later periods, one of the main causes for European events was the brutal competition in Asia. This is the reason the Huns invaded, and the reason Persia had to look west in the first place(because the Indus Valley was too strong for their likings). Also, trade with the Orient was critical to the financial well-being of the Persians, as well as many other states in Central Asia.

On the other side of the globe, the Poenecians traded all over Africa- there is even good evidence that they held territory as far south as Zimbabwe (I forget which thread this was in, but they had a link to a site with enough information to at least make this seem possible) as well as the inexplicable presence of coca-like substances in Egyptian mummies- coca is a South-American drug not generally known in Eurasia until post-Columbian times, but this may mean there was a brief trade link between S.A. and Africa. I believe this was in a thread called "Inca Empire or am I missing a patch?" To get there, follow the link to Ribelanto in my sig, and there is a link to the "Inca or am I missing a patch" thread in the second post.

As for Spartan, I like it for the same reason I like EU3: you aren't tied to actual history, you are free to carry on diplomacy as you wish. Although, I will give you that the diplomacy in CoW was much cooler- no peace treaties or other such hindrances to prevent the enormous bloodbath that characterized that game. There just aren't words to describe the beauty of being able to attack anyone at any time, even your allies (or having your allies do the same to you)

CoW's economic system was cooler, too, but not by much- there was just more flavor to each region. I.E., for most nations, buying horses is a major expense, but if you conquer the steppes, you get a surplus which you can sell for a big profit. Same with wood in Lebanon, gems in Sinai, incense in Arabia, etc. Spartan didn't have so much flavor, but it's still there. I think what you saw were the fact that every city can produce food and building materials, and most can produce copper, but this held true in history, too. The major trade goods- horses, gems, etc.- are still regional specialties, just not quite as varied as in CoW. Not helping variety is the fact that, because the map is almost entirely greek, there aren't big cultural differences, either- this is really my main (and one of very few) complaints with CoW, too.

Amob_m_s · 18-11-2007, 23:18

Sorry, double posted. My bad.

ubik · 19-11-2007, 14:40

Hey Amob, this CoW seems EXCELLENT!

Amob_m_s · 21-11-2007, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubik

Hey Amob, this CoW seems EXCELLENT!

It really is. And quite unique, the only other games that go back that far are games like Civilization, which don't do the period justice. You can get the demo at www.slitherine.com

CommisarPapadov · 22-11-2007, 22:52

Its tremendous! The fact that individual islands are their own province is enticing! Rhodes in 3 provinces? Now that is interesting. Overall, it looks great

Amob_m_s · 27-11-2007, 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommisarPapadov

Its tremendous! The fact that individual islands are their own province is enticing! Rhodes in 3 provinces? Now that is interesting. Overall, it looks great

I hadn't noticed that, this is a bit odd. I guess Rhodes could be divided temporarily, like during a war, but it seems to me its too small to be shared three ways for a long term. Then again, I'm no ancient historian, this might have happened back in the day.

4AD · 29-11-2007, 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amob_m_s

I hadn't noticed that, this is a bit odd. I guess Rhodes could be divided temporarily, like during a war, but it seems to me its too small to be shared three ways for a long term. Then again, I'm no ancient historian, this might have happened back in the day.

The three provinces of Rhodos represent the 3 biggest cities of the era , Rhodos in the North , Kameiros in the middle , Lindos in the South

Amob_m_s · 30-11-2007, 00:19

Ah, makes sense. However, were these ever governed by seperate entities (or as independent poleis), because if not, then I think it should be treated as a one-province island. If they were seperate, then of course they should be seperate in the map, too.

4AD · 30-11-2007, 08:35

The history of Kamiros is almost a mystery , we know that it was a member of the Dorian Hexapolis , Lindos was also a member and it was a strong trading city ( the walls are impressive and still standing ).Confederations of Polis usually included independent ones and none of them were by no means colonies of Rhodos ( after all Rhodos was built later ).

The 5 divisions of Lesvos are far more interesting tho .

Molleby · 30-11-2007, 12:27

As far as I have understood it when I carelessly went through the history of some of the islands, Rhodes was not governed by one city in particular, but more on a federal basis, though my book wasn't very specific. I also went to a seminar at my university, where an archeologist suggested that the city of Lindos was quite different from the other cities of Rhodes and had some degree of autonomy. Nonetheless, Rhodes will be represented as one political entity, but the enemy will have to take more than just one city to dominate the island.

As for Lesbos, there was some factional warfare between the various cities during the Peloponnesian War, or more precisely, some sort of civil war between the elite and the masses. Again, I only have marginal knowledge of this, and 5 provinces might be too many, but it needs to have at least two provinces. Again, ingame, before the civil war, it will be represented as one political entity.

4AD · 30-11-2007, 13:20

Lesvos had a Pentalplis ( confederation of 5 cities ) the most important cities were

Mytilene , Eressos , Mithymna , Antissa, Pyrra

you can find the locations in this map

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Cities/Lesbos.html

Molleby · 30-11-2007, 19:03

Excellent

bookmarked

Amob_m_s · 01-12-2007, 01:10

That clears things up then- keep it as three provinces.

Molleby · 05-12-2007, 13:25

I have now begun to work on the inland provinces of western Asia Minor. Unfortunately my otherwise excellent history atlas seems very lacking when it comes to the cities of western Asia Minor. I was wondering if anyone here knows of a good resource for locating ancient cities for this map?

4AD · 06-12-2007, 13:23

this link gives you all important cities of Crete by era

http://www.ancient-greece.org/images...ient-crete.swf

Map of Magna Grecia (just click on it)

http://www.bio.vu.nl/home/vwielink/WWW_MGC/home.html

i am currently trying to find some maps in English since i don't think Greek will be of any help to you

01-11-2007, 12:32	#1
Molleby Deliciously Danish Join Date: May 2002 Location: Epicurean Boot Camp Posts: 494	Ancient Map (WIP) - Comments needed So while I'm waiting for Rome to get out, or AI files to become moddable in EU3, I've begun to work on my ancient map again, which there has been some interest in recently. As I reopened the file, it struck me that I might have too many provinces in Greece and other places, and maybe too few in other areas. However, I am not sure where or why, and since my ancient knowledge is getting a little rusty, I was hoping that the good people here could throw some tips my way. Also I could need tips concerning system perfomance matters in connection with the outline of maps and provinces and so on Edit: this map is mainly for the time period 500-340 BC Current state of the project begun RGB-coding for all provinces Main Greece + islands + rest of Athenian empire done (posted 25th of January, have had to make it a .jpg because of size limits in imageshack) __________________ Current project: Ancient Greek Mod for EUIII Step 1: Making the map + Map graphics Check out the Roma Universalis Mod ... and follow the first AAR based on the RU mod: Alhazen's Rome: Sons of Mars Only the sausage-maker's son knows how to honour me Last edited by Molleby; 25-01-2008 at 12:15.

02-11-2007, 23:44	#3
Amob_m_s Major Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Porkopolis Posts: 738	My thoughts are similar: the Greeks, on that map, would by sheer force of numbers overpower the Persians and Italians (Etruscans, etc). Also, although 500-340 is fine, you may want to extend it back further to capture the Greek Renaissance period, so 600-700 BC start date. If you want a great game that used a similar concept, check out Spartan, as well as its predecessor (one of my all-time favorite games, beats the Total War series into the dirt like a chihuahua under the heels of a canophobic postman) called Chariots of War (both by slitherine), for info on the area farther east. Your map really does resemble the maps in those games- TONS of provinces, suitable for tons of tiny little city states. Screenshots: CoW Spartan In any case, what you have looks great, I love the detail- it just may need to have that level ofdetail extended further east, and maybe north too. I'll be following this mod. __________________ AAR: Rise of Tahuantinsuyo (Inca) Hegemony in America. Abandoned; the final update is up, taking it to 1522. Mod Projects: EU3 Tribal Escape Micromod (TEM) , EU3 Modifier Tweaks Experiment , The HoI Alternative History Pack Hope is the strongest liquor.

13-11-2007, 12:02	#5
yupa Second Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Strategic mod builder Posts: 121	I am a partisant of : It's not because is take place long time ago that the usefull map should be small. at the period of Greek, they are Egyptian, Indian, American, Chinese... I like very much the "Universalis" of Europa, and i think this is the major quality of the game. Well, of course, you have to add small provinces, but especialy in the history, everything is connected. And the Ionien invasion will be connected with Hittites, and them will connected with Egyptian, and egyptian will be conquered by Assyrian, Who take his power on Babylon and Elam, And the Medes will conquered and destroy Assyria. And then Perses will take control of Medes, And the Maurya Empire in India... And in the west, they are disputed control between greek colony and etruscan. the power of many city states of greece have a direct link with this... And the Carthage conquered some part of etruscan ( like Corsica ) and they take her strong on control of Spain... = And this is only for BCE... after, no need to make a draw, with HunnicS empire __________________ HISTORIA UNIVERSALIS a Mod to play since the Roman Empire to the Modern Empires. And to be most accurate about History Last edited by yupa; 13-11-2007 at 12:30.

18-11-2007, 23:09	#6
Amob_m_s Major Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Porkopolis Posts: 738	Yeah, especially in later periods, one of the main causes for European events was the brutal competition in Asia. This is the reason the Huns invaded, and the reason Persia had to look west in the first place(because the Indus Valley was too strong for their likings). Also, trade with the Orient was critical to the financial well-being of the Persians, as well as many other states in Central Asia. On the other side of the globe, the Poenecians traded all over Africa- there is even good evidence that they held territory as far south as Zimbabwe (I forget which thread this was in, but they had a link to a site with enough information to at least make this seem possible) as well as the inexplicable presence of coca-like substances in Egyptian mummies- coca is a South-American drug not generally known in Eurasia until post-Columbian times, but this may mean there was a brief trade link between S.A. and Africa. I believe this was in a thread called "Inca Empire or am I missing a patch?" To get there, follow the link to Ribelanto in my sig, and there is a link to the "Inca or am I missing a patch" thread in the second post. As for Spartan, I like it for the same reason I like EU3: you aren't tied to actual history, you are free to carry on diplomacy as you wish. Although, I will give you that the diplomacy in CoW was much cooler- no peace treaties or other such hindrances to prevent the enormous bloodbath that characterized that game. There just aren't words to describe the beauty of being able to attack anyone at any time, even your allies (or having your allies do the same to you) CoW's economic system was cooler, too, but not by much- there was just more flavor to each region. I.E., for most nations, buying horses is a major expense, but if you conquer the steppes, you get a surplus which you can sell for a big profit. Same with wood in Lebanon, gems in Sinai, incense in Arabia, etc. Spartan didn't have so much flavor, but it's still there. I think what you saw were the fact that every city can produce food and building materials, and most can produce copper, but this held true in history, too. The major trade goods- horses, gems, etc.- are still regional specialties, just not quite as varied as in CoW. Not helping variety is the fact that, because the map is almost entirely greek, there aren't big cultural differences, either- this is really my main (and one of very few) complaints with CoW, too. __________________ AAR: Rise of Tahuantinsuyo (Inca) Hegemony in America. Abandoned; the final update is up, taking it to 1522. Mod Projects: EU3 Tribal Escape Micromod (TEM) , EU3 Modifier Tweaks Experiment , The HoI Alternative History Pack Hope is the strongest liquor.

18-11-2007, 23:18	#7
Amob_m_s Major Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Porkopolis Posts: 738	Sorry, double posted. My bad. __________________ AAR: Rise of Tahuantinsuyo (Inca) Hegemony in America. Abandoned; the final update is up, taking it to 1522. Mod Projects: EU3 Tribal Escape Micromod (TEM) , EU3 Modifier Tweaks Experiment , The HoI Alternative History Pack Hope is the strongest liquor.

01-11-2007, 17:54	#2
Maladict The Pope's evil twin Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 412	That's a LOT of poleis. Might be tough to balance them against such a small part of Persia? It looks like tremendous fun to play though

13-11-2007, 04:12	#4
Grumblefish First Lieutenant Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 255	Hey, I made a thread about this era in the Rome forum, and after seeing this thread I thought I better post a link: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...31#post7702631 As for the Sparta game posted above me... I will say the map is nice, but much of the game is lacking (diplomacy? forget it. Delian/Peloponnesian league? forget it. Economic and political differences between the city-states? Forget it, they're all practically the same). There needs to be mods for that game, or a major overhaul. I've only played the demo, so if the full version is a lot different, please tell me, because I love the time-period, but I was very, very disappointed in that game.

19-11-2007, 14:40	#8
ubik MM Dev Team Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Lisbon Posts: 15,989	Hey Amob, this CoW seems EXCELLENT! __________________ == MAGNA MUNDI == DOWNLOAD MAGNA MUNDI ULTIMATE (v1.26) 2/09/2010 HERE! MAGNA MUNDI MANUAL AVAILABLE HERE FANMADE TRIBUTE TO MAGNA MUNDI CALLED FUN2MMP32 AVAILABLE HERE DOWNLOAD MAGNA MUNDI PLATINUM 2 (for EU3:IN) HERE! MAGNA MUNDI GOLD 2 DOWNLOAD (for EU3:NA) AVAILABLE HERE MAGNA MUNDI IV (for EU3 w/o Expansions) AVAILABLE HERE More Than 747.000 Downloads! THANK YOU FOR YOUR PREFERENCE!

22-11-2007, 22:52	#10
CommisarPapadov First Lieutenant Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: the 2mm area around Falkenburg Posts: 234	Its tremendous! The fact that individual islands are their own province is enticing! Rhodes in 3 provinces? Now that is interesting. Overall, it looks great

30-11-2007, 00:19	#13
Amob_m_s Major Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Porkopolis Posts: 738	Ah, makes sense. However, were these ever governed by seperate entities (or as independent poleis), because if not, then I think it should be treated as a one-province island. If they were seperate, then of course they should be seperate in the map, too. __________________ AAR: Rise of Tahuantinsuyo (Inca) Hegemony in America. Abandoned; the final update is up, taking it to 1522. Mod Projects: EU3 Tribal Escape Micromod (TEM) , EU3 Modifier Tweaks Experiment , The HoI Alternative History Pack Hope is the strongest liquor.

30-11-2007, 08:35	#14
4AD Lt. General Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: banania Posts: 1,280	The history of Kamiros is almost a mystery , we know that it was a member of the Dorian Hexapolis , Lindos was also a member and it was a strong trading city ( the walls are impressive and still standing ).Confederations of Polis usually included independent ones and none of them were by no means colonies of Rhodos ( after all Rhodos was built later ). The 5 divisions of Lesvos are far more interesting tho .

30-11-2007, 12:27	#15
Molleby Deliciously Danish Join Date: May 2002 Location: Epicurean Boot Camp Posts: 494	As far as I have understood it when I carelessly went through the history of some of the islands, Rhodes was not governed by one city in particular, but more on a federal basis, though my book wasn't very specific. I also went to a seminar at my university, where an archeologist suggested that the city of Lindos was quite different from the other cities of Rhodes and had some degree of autonomy. Nonetheless, Rhodes will be represented as one political entity, but the enemy will have to take more than just one city to dominate the island. As for Lesbos, there was some factional warfare between the various cities during the Peloponnesian War, or more precisely, some sort of civil war between the elite and the masses. Again, I only have marginal knowledge of this, and 5 provinces might be too many, but it needs to have at least two provinces. Again, ingame, before the civil war, it will be represented as one political entity. __________________ Current project: Ancient Greek Mod for EUIII Step 1: Making the map + Map graphics Check out the Roma Universalis Mod ... and follow the first AAR based on the RU mod: Alhazen's Rome: Sons of Mars Only the sausage-maker's son knows how to honour me

30-11-2007, 13:20	#16
4AD Lt. General Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: banania Posts: 1,280	Lesvos had a Pentalplis ( confederation of 5 cities ) the most important cities were Mytilene , Eressos , Mithymna , Antissa, Pyrra you can find the locations in this map http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Cities/Lesbos.html

30-11-2007, 19:03	#17
Molleby Deliciously Danish Join Date: May 2002 Location: Epicurean Boot Camp Posts: 494	Excellent bookmarked __________________ Current project: Ancient Greek Mod for EUIII Step 1: Making the map + Map graphics Check out the Roma Universalis Mod ... and follow the first AAR based on the RU mod: Alhazen's Rome: Sons of Mars Only the sausage-maker's son knows how to honour me

01-12-2007, 01:10	#18
Amob_m_s Major Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Porkopolis Posts: 738	That clears things up then- keep it as three provinces. __________________ AAR: Rise of Tahuantinsuyo (Inca) Hegemony in America. Abandoned; the final update is up, taking it to 1522. Mod Projects: EU3 Tribal Escape Micromod (TEM) , EU3 Modifier Tweaks Experiment , The HoI Alternative History Pack Hope is the strongest liquor.

05-12-2007, 13:25	#19
Molleby Deliciously Danish Join Date: May 2002 Location: Epicurean Boot Camp Posts: 494	I have now begun to work on the inland provinces of western Asia Minor. Unfortunately my otherwise excellent history atlas seems very lacking when it comes to the cities of western Asia Minor. I was wondering if anyone here knows of a good resource for locating ancient cities for this map? __________________ Current project: Ancient Greek Mod for EUIII Step 1: Making the map + Map graphics Check out the Roma Universalis Mod ... and follow the first AAR based on the RU mod: Alhazen's Rome: Sons of Mars Only the sausage-maker's son knows how to honour me

06-12-2007, 13:23	#20
4AD Lt. General Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: banania Posts: 1,280	this link gives you all important cities of Crete by era http://www.ancient-greece.org/images...ient-crete.swf Map of Magna Grecia (just click on it) http://www.bio.vu.nl/home/vwielink/WWW_MGC/home.html i am currently trying to find some maps in English since i don't think Greek will be of any help to you Last edited by 4AD; 06-12-2007 at 13:30.