War Score / Peace Resolution Idea

[martinl]

The current peace system makes it very hard to get anything off of a major power in a peace deal. This has its pluses and minuses (go argue about it on another thread), but let's say for now that we stick with this model.

Still, historically little guys did sometimes peel land off of big guys. Via stubbornness!

So, how about this:

Reduce the war score value of an occupied province by 0.5% per year you occupy it, to a minimum of 0.1x or the original value. If you have a core on it, use 1% and 0.05x. (If they have a core, the peace resolution value will reflect that, so no modifiers are needed.) Reset if they ever get it back via peace or conquest. If you are willing to stay at war with Russia for 40 years and they can't take Novgorod back, they will be less stubborn than if you just got it last Tuesday.

Reasonable?

[rmdsc]

It's a good idea in and of itself, but I don't think it helps the peace process. I haven't tried things in NA, but in original the main problem with the peace AI is that it doesn't know it when there's no chance of victory anymore (i.e. overseas colony lost).

Usually, WE does make the AI a lot more willing to cave

Plus they give up once you've crushed their military.

[SirGrotius]

Interesting idea, but the Napoleon's mantra is key: destroy the armies to defeat the nation.

[skippermonkey]

i'm no genius, but your idea sounds like it'd be far too easy to gain or lose entire sections of an empire after just one war if you/your enemy is happy to go to war for years, (100 years war anyone?), my current game as austria i could use the BB wars to take over other large empires in one go, such as the ottomans, persians, the mighty mings, etc.

[filipe_fonseca]

I think the current system works fairly well. If you haven't defeated their army, why would they surrender just because of some occupation related score? They still have chances, why would they hand you out a bunch of provinces?

[jambojones]

I like the idea but the ai being the ai would probably still find a way to mke it pear shape in gme.

[daemonw]

It makes sense in theory, but I'm not sure how it would work in practice. In practice, the AI doesn't want to give up any provinces if it thinks it can win. So reducing the value won't help this.

[Magirot]

Originally Posted by filipe_fonseca

I think the current system works fairly well. If you haven't defeated their army, why would they surrender just because of some occupation related score? They still have chances, why would they hand you out a bunch of provinces?

Should a country think like a single entity? If an enemy has managed to occupy so much, isn't it a clear sign to the nobles etc. that the war isn't going well, and that they should get the war to stop or force the ruler to stop it in some way or another? And if you have managed to occupy that much, you've most likely won numerous battles already...

Edit: Of course, they shouldn't cede half of their provinces in a situation like this. But it kind of bugs me that if I want a single boundary province from Russia, I have to march to Moscow and beyond to get them to cede it. There's no sense there.

[vertinox]

Originally Posted by filipe_fonseca

I think the current system works fairly well. If you haven't defeated their army, why would they surrender just because of some occupation related score? They still have chances, why would they hand you out a bunch of provinces?

Yeah, but I think there should be some de facto rulership over provinces.

If you don't take the provinces back within 5 years they should become de facto owned by the person that occupies them.

Kind of like Turbo annexing, but without the effort.

Think about it... Its like the Korean War in which they never signed a peace agreement but both sides have a de facto border which the front lines happened to end up.

Over time, if no battles were fought in a province then eventually the locals would get used to occupation figuring they wouldn't be liberated any time soon.

[edit]

Actually it would make much more sense, to have multipliers on War Exhaustion if you have provinces occupied.

If your provinces have been occupied by the enemy, you should get a lot more war exhaustion than the enemy if their population hasn't seen any fighting or sieging of villages.

So the longer you hold on to a province, the more WE the occupied province gives to the person not willing to fight to get it back.

[Spruce]

I started a similar thread about that issue. Let's take a look at the bigger picture.

As the Netherlands - I just rebelled from Spain - I have a small land army but a huge navy. Spain can not use it's large land army. I blockaded them for 100% - but no effect on Spain.

The problem is that my war capacity is 3% and Spains 100%. And Spain has lost about 200 frigates and wargalleons.

I already proposed that provinces with no land connection to capital should cost half to ask for.

Before we go further with proposals - I'm so curious why my war capacity is so small and Spains is so big.

I think that the size of the navy should make up for a good portion of the war capacity.

And now we come to the conclusion - provinces that don't have a connection to the capital start to become cheaper to ask for - IF - the conquerer has a much bigger fleet compared to the conquered.

Example = as Netherlands I have nearly 80 war galleons and frigates - Spain has about 20 and keeps losing ground. That's a huge difference.

So if Spain has lost a province overseas and that province is not land connected to the capital (so not like a "home province") it already becomes cheaper to ask for - and suppose Spain has lost its naval stamina that province becomes even more cheaper.

An example - I had a game where one of the Dominican Island province was worth 36% to France - this was even more expensive then some of its European provinces like Caux.

So - the Dominican island province costs 18% to ask for - and if France navy sucks big time - it will only cost you 9% war score to ask for.

This both handles the fact that "colonial belongings" are worthwhile - but are less important then the European Home land provinces. And it also models quite well the impact of a shattered navy. F.e. in my current game as Netherlands - Spain has a humonguous army in America's - but Spain has virtually no ships left - how on earth can Spain keep its war apparatus running over there ???

Another thing to notice is that this solves the impossibiltiy for the Netherlands to conquer back some of its cores from Spain (after the rebellion). Flanders costs 64% to ask for - but it has no land connection to the Spanish capital - so that goes to 32% and if the Netherlands have vanquished the Spanish navy that province might cost 16% - finally a achievable target ...

By the way - even further down this road - if the conquerer of overseas provinces have the inferior navy - the cost to ask for that province might get doubled again.

Same example - Flanders is occupied by the Netherlands and Spain has the superior navy - why should Spain give it up - it can reach their overseas territories anyhow ...

so warscore to ask for Flanders = 68% /2 *2 = 68% - much more difficult to grab for the Netherlands.

summary =

Netherlands conquered Flanders =

- Netherlands has superior navy = Flanders cost 16% to ask for,
- neither country has superior navy = Flanders costs 32% to aks for,
- Spain has superior navy = Flanders cost the regular 64% to ask for,

I think this easy rule can make the game much more attractive.

So it will make colonial conquests more achievable - and the importance of the navy is much more important. Anyhow, getting land from juggernauts like Portugal and Spain is difficult enough ! and manageable with this proposal.

There can be established an easy formula to calculate the relative positions of both countries navy.

[filipe_fonseca]

Originally Posted by vertinox

Yeah, but I think there should be some de facto rulership over provinces.

If you don't take the provinces back within 5 years they should become de facto owned by the person that occupies them.

Kind of like Turbo annexing, but without the effort.

Think about it... Its like the Korean War in which they never signed a peace agreement but both sides have a de facto border which the front lines happened to end up.

Over time, if no battles were fought in a province then eventually the locals would get used to occupation figuring they wouldn't be liberated any time soon.

[edit]

Actually it would make much more sense, to have multipliers on War Exhaustion if you have provinces occupied.

If your provinces have been occupied by the enemy, you should get a lot more war exhaustion than the enemy if their population hasn't seen any fighting or sieging of villages.

So the longer you hold on to a province, the more WE the occupied province gives to the person not willing to fight to get it back.

I agree with your edit. It's an excelent idea. About taking a province for good after 5 years, I'm not so sure. I don't think it worked like that during the game's historical period. I think the formal peace treaties we see in the game are a much more accurate representation of how european "states" related to each other at the time.

[Cerberus™]

Perhaps a bit late, but to add an example of why the current system (1.3) is not very realistic against large countries:

- I am the Netherlands against Spain, 1620;
- I have occupied the southern Netherlands for more than thirty years unchallenged;
- I have conquered all Spain's provinces in Europe and around the Mediterranean, including northern Africa, the Sicilies, and Spain itself;
- I have defeated its armies and navies time and again, I believe it has none left of either in the Old World (except perhaps in eastern Asia, though it has never attacked my Taiwan);
- There is no way for Spain to regain its homeland, nor has it ever tried to during the last 10 years.

Yet I cannot even get Spain to cede Flanders.

My war score is now 68%, exactly the worth of Flanders. How come I have been crippling Spain's economy for a very long time, and yet it won't cede this single province? Surely Spain would be expected to increasingly want to end this devastating war? The current situation is not very realistic, if you asked me.

The options given above: to cheapen provinces' negotiation value, based on navy domination in combination with home connection, and on length of occupation; to cause massive war exhaustion in the provinces a country still controls if many of its provinces are occupied; seem very interesting and potentially more realistic.

Important: one would never demand half of Spain's provinces in a truce anyway, because of the huge resulting reputation drop. The rest of the world would react with a massive attack.

As it is, my best choice may be occupying Spain forever, to keep it down and out of my way. Surely that's not the way it was intended to work. I might occupy its New World possessions, too, thus rendering a major part of the world's GDP useless to anyone.

[Surgünoglu]

War exhaustion is your ally; it can help you demand far more than your war score would seem to allow.

Also, I like the de facto occupation, though it would speed up wars and that's not necessarily a good thing. I get why there are rules as the game represents, but it's kinda frustrating to fight a war with Austria or Venice and either take Vienna or Venice as the Turks, only to return them politely once the war is won. That is not how interreligious conflict was waged. Honestly, can you imagine a proper Ottoman soldier yielding Vienna, once won?

[Zander]

Originally Posted by vertinox

Yeah, but I think there should be some de facto rulership over provinces.

If you don't take the provinces back within 5 years they should become de facto owned by the person that occupies them.

Kind of like Turbo annexing, but without the effort.

There is an event these days that has exactly that effect. But it requires (a) that you have less than 5 WE, (b) that the other nation have 15+ WE, and (c) that the province not be of the other nation's own culture. It also has a high MTTH, which becomes a gigantic MTTH for Lucky nations.

[Panopticon]

Originally Posted by Cerberus™

Perhaps a bit late, but to add an example of why the current system (1.3) is not very realistic against large countries:

Since I don't recognice your situation at all, have never seen anything like it I will stop at this. 1.3 is far from the current system. We are up to 3.2 now and my guess is that they have fixed it.

EDIT: Most of it at least. There's still some issues when you have conquered a lot of the new world provinces for instance..

[Cerberus™]

Originally Posted by Panopticon

Since I don't recognice your situation at all, have never seen anything like it I will stop at this. 1.3 is far from the current system. We are up to 3.2 now and my guess is that they have fixed it.

EDIT: Most of it at least. There's still some issues when you have conquered a lot of the new world provinces for instance..

Ah, I presume 2.x is NA and 3.x is IN? Yeah, haven't acquired those yet (should like to once I have gotten used to 1.3 - just got it a few days ago). Good to know they improved things!

Could you elaborate (a bit), from your own experience, on how it works in 3.2? That is, roughly how difficult would it be to get Spain to cede Flanders ca. 1580? Should I need to conquer all of the southern Netherlands (Belgium) only? Or Spain itself, too? Or just a few provinces in Spain?
What would it take to acquire all of the southern Netherlands? This assuming I keep defeating their navies and armies at a steady pace.

Incidentally, defeating and occupying Spain was a bit too easy (on normal) - I expect they somehow changed that as well.

[bdutton]

I would prefer a system where you can both give and take in a peace treaty, either to use cash to get more provinces or to exchange ones of different cultures/regions. This would be especially helpful in fixing colonial borders where the ai scatters their colonies randomly.

[Panopticon]

Originally Posted by Cerberus™

Ah, I presume 2.x is NA and 3.x is IN? Yeah, haven't acquired those yet (should like to once I have gotten used to 1.3 - just got it a few days ago). Good to know they improved things!

Could you elaborate (a bit), from your own experience, on how it works in 3.2? That is, roughly how difficult would it be to get Spain to cede Flanders ca. 1580? Should I need to conquer all of the southern Netherlands (Belgium) only? Or Spain itself, too? Or just a few provinces in Spain?
What would it take to acquire all of the southern Netherlands? This assuming I keep defeating their navies and armies at a steady pace.

Incidentally, defeating and occupying Spain was a bit too easy (on normal) - I expect they somehow changed that as well.

Yes. That's how the version works. But I should rather advice the opposite. IN changes the play in some quite large parts so a lot of what you have learnt from 1.3 you will have to forget when you get IN..

Since Flanders had that 68% WS worth it would still take some big achievments to get it.. In IN you can often get up to 20% more than the WS is but they are still quite reluctant to come to the negotiation table. Taking their capital is often the best way, if you take that they will pretty much always make a peace deal.. My guess in this scenario is that it would pretty much suffice to get a 50% WS and taking Spains capital.
Or if you destroy all of their armies they will also make a nice peace deal. It's basically those two things that forces Spain to make a good peace deal.

[Cerberus™]

Originally Posted by Panopticon

Yes. That's how the version works. But I should rather advice the opposite. IN changes the play in some quite large parts so a lot of what you have learnt from 1.3 you will have to forget when you get IN..

Good to know, perhaps I should indeed take the giant leap asap.

Since Flanders had that 68% WS worth it would still take some big achievments to get it.. In IN you can often get up to 20% more than the WS is but they are still quite reluctant to come to the negotiation table. Taking their capital is often the best way, if you take that they will pretty much always make a peace deal.. My guess in this scenario is that it would pretty much suffice to get a 50% WS and taking Spains capital.
Or if you destroy all of their armies they will also make a nice peace deal. It's basically those two things that forces Spain to make a good peace deal.

That sounds better than 1.3, thanks for sharing. Is it possible to get more than 100 from a peace deal, if war score is at 100% and some other stuff is going rather well? What exactly may drive the deal above war score: is it war capacity and taking a capital (only)?

Does IN also take into account the distribution of armies between continents? If Spain is utterly defeated in the Old World but unscathed in the New, will it know that it cannot hold onto that much in the Old? Will it be persuaded by continuous tax and production lost if its provinces are occupied for a long time?

Incidentally, giving up occupied Spain lowered my monthly income from ca. 210 to 160 (solely through production income), which was a big reason to never give it back. Does it still work this way in IN?

I heard about Magna Mundi: does it iron out some of these quirks as well? (What is MM supposed to mean anyway: "great things of the world"? Is it the title of a Papal bull?)

[RedFish]

You can't demand more than 100% in warscore, and the ai will never accept anything above 10% of your current warscore.

On the plus side a province's worth is scaled according to the size of the country.