Do some countries have too many state cultures?

Dracleath · 22-03-2002, 03:20

I've been playing around with the scenario files a little, and after some testing I think some countries would be fine to lose a few cultures. The AI in 1.04 seems to be MUCH better at handling rebellion, at least in provinces connected by land to thier power base (I tend to see AKK or the Timurids hold onto persia for 20 or 30 years after 1480, despite there being 5-6 % revolt risk there continuously, and England when it does well in the hundred years war will tend to only lose a couple of its newly conquered provinces over to independence or defection). I also see the ottomans run over the balkans even without greek or slavonic culture, and not have any really significant problems with revolts or a lowered economy. Having so many cultures for some states makes it far too easy for a human player to accumulate vast amounts of land and a huge economy (see burgundy).

A few of the changes I've been playing with are as follows:

Burgundy - French only
Austria - German only (Why should austria start in 1419 with Hungarian, Czech, and Slovak?)
Ottoman - Turkish only (similar situation as austria.)
Byzantium - Greek only (although perhaps a case could be made for making a seperate bulgarian culture for bulgaria and rumelia and giving it to Byzantium also)
Hungarian - Magyar only (they were already too powerful even when they only had magyar, and I don't think they even have a czech province in their borders anyway)
China - Han only
Sweeden - Sweedish only
Novgorod - Russian only
Navarre - Basque only

The AI so far seems to not be impeded by any of this all that much, still expanding as historically as they ever do, so unless there are compelling historical reasons for keeping the extra cultures in these countries, I don't see any reason much to keep them around. Further testing is probably needed, though.

Also, is there any way that the penalties for not having state culture or the cost/chance of conversion can be edited? I was thinking that in exchange for cutting some cultures, the penalties for not having state culture could be reduced slightly globally (especially for religious conversion), which I think would be more realistic in general. Ideally, the penalties would be very low at the beginning of the game and increase as nationalism became more and more of an idea, but that isn't really possible I guess.

PMLF · 22-03-2002, 03:32

I think it's right the Ottomans having Greek and Arabic culture. On the other hand Slavonic culture should be replaced by Armenian one as an Ottoman State culture.

Dracleath · 22-03-2002, 03:49

I don't know. Constantinople and smyra actually change to turkish when the ottomans capture them, so they are not really an issue. The only thing the ottomans get out of greek culture is access to greece itself and a few of the minor islands and things.

As for Arabic, most of the ottoman's arabic land was really in a vassalage type relationship. Egypt was nominally a part of the ottoman nation itself, but the real rulers there were still the mameluk beys, largely the same people in charge before the ottomans gained control of it. The ottoman governor there was referred to as a "captive hostage", and eventually the mameluks became so powerful that the ottomans had most of them killed, leading to big revolts and egypt's eventual independance. So I'd argue for ottomans not getting arabic just on those grounds, that they had to keep around the local leaders and allow them power just to maintain control of their arabic possessions.

Doomfarer · 22-03-2002, 10:19

I agree, several countries should have cultures removed. Austria for example should only start with German culture and then if the Hungarian inheritance goes through they should get Magyar as well.

A good idea would probably be to have countries start with fewer cultures and then add to them with events if certain circumstances hold true.

Attila the Hun · 22-03-2002, 12:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Dracleath
I've been playing around with the scenario files a little, and after some testing I think some countries would be fine to lose a few cultures. The AI in 1.04 seems to be MUCH better at handling rebellion, at least in provinces connected by land to thier power base (I tend to see AKK or the Timurids hold onto persia for 20 or 30 years after 1480, despite there being 5-6 % revolt risk there continuously, and England when it does well in the hundred years war will tend to only lose a couple of its newly conquered provinces over to independence or defection). I also see the ottomans run over the balkans even without greek or slavonic culture, and not have any really significant problems with revolts or a lowered economy. Having so many cultures for some states makes it far too easy for a human player to accumulate vast amounts of land and a huge economy (see burgundy).

A few of the changes I've been playing with are as follows:

Burgundy - French only
Austria - German only (Why should austria start in 1419 with Hungarian, Czech, and Slovak?)
Ottoman - Turkish only (similar situation as austria.)
Byzantium - Greek only (although perhaps a case could be made for making a seperate bulgarian culture for bulgaria and rumelia and giving it to Byzantium also)
Hungarian - Magyar only (they were already too powerful even when they only had magyar, and I don't think they even have a czech province in their borders anyway)
China - Han only
Sweeden - Sweedish only
Novgorod - Russian only
Navarre - Basque only

The AI so far seems to not be impeded by any of this all that much, still expanding as historically as they ever do, so unless there are compelling historical reasons for keeping the extra cultures in these countries, I don't see any reason much to keep them around. Further testing is probably needed, though.

Also, is there any way that the penalties for not having state culture or the cost/chance of conversion can be edited? I was thinking that in exchange for cutting some cultures, the penalties for not having state culture could be reduced slightly globally (especially for religious conversion), which I think would be more realistic in general. Ideally, the penalties would be very low at the beginning of the game and increase as nationalism became more and more of an idea, but that isn't really possible I guess.

I completely agree with You. Just a side note however: Hungary does not have Czech Culture.

So I do not see Your point there.

ryoken69 · 22-03-2002, 14:15

Burgundy should have Dutch. I do think that German is too much, but they should not be just French. They only have 3 French provinces at the beginning of the game and dont really acquire any more. If they dont at least have dutch, they will be too weak to fend off the French. Then the French will have the Netherlands and the Austrians wont get it.........leading to more problems. So I think they should still have Dutch. If not for realism, for game balance.

Lambert Simnel · 22-03-2002, 21:17

For Burgundy only having French culture is absolutely right for them to only have French culture under John the Fearless, but under Phillip the Good, who moved his court to Mechlin in Brabant, they became more Dutch.

The following is from The Sable Rose's article on Burgundian History at http://homepage.mac.com/sable_rose/history.html

Quote:

The first two Dukes of Burgundy who reigned in the Netherlands were pre-eminently French princes and bent upon preserving and augmenting the prestige they enjoyed in France as princes of the blood royal. On the other hand, their two successors were essentially Belgian princes whose chief aim was the extension of their domains and whose policy was distinctly anti-French.

Dracleath · 22-03-2002, 21:58

Perhaps an event to move them the capital to brabrant along with adding dutch culture after the annexation of brabant would be in order, then?

Fate · 25-03-2002, 05:13

Granada also has too many cultures. Perhaps just give them Berber.

Jinnai · 25-03-2002, 06:27

wow...the pendulum has shifted...before people were saying there were too few cultures...

DarthMaur · 25-03-2002, 12:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Jinnai
wow...the pendulum has shifted...before people were saying there were too few cultures...

Maybe they are just other people, you know. I, for example, don't agree with only Berber culture for Granada.

Attila the Hun · 25-03-2002, 12:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Maur13

Maybe they are just other people, you know. I, for example, don't agree with only Berber culture for Granada.

Yup, Granada was quiet successful in integrating a variety of different religions, cultures, thus it is justified that it has more than 1 culture.

Dracleath · 25-03-2002, 23:32

Quote:

wow...the pendulum has shifted...before people were saying there were too few cultures...

It isn't necessarily that there are too many or too few cultures, its that the way cultures are assigned is arbitrary and somewhat random. For instance, the Ottomans have greek and slavonic culture, but the Russians don't have mongol (which is used for the Taters). The austrians have magyar culture 100 years before hungary was incorporated into the empire. Burgundy has german culture despite never actually owning any german territory aside from luxembourg. (You could make a much better argument for, say, Friesland having German culture, but they don't get it.) You could make the argument that some of the cultures are there to prevent areas from rebelling from the AI, but that doesn't seem to be an issue anymore very much. So, what I'm saying is that some standard should be developed, such as the countries only having the culture of the actual rulers of the country, and exceptions should be made based only on gameplay or historical concerns, and should be implemented mainly with events (IE austria gaining magyar with the inheritance of hungary, or Burgundy getting dutch as they consolidate and centralize their territory in the netherlands)

Fate · 25-03-2002, 23:39

If Granada gets Iberian, then shouldn't Aragon get French?

DarthMaur · 25-03-2002, 23:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Fate
If Granada gets Iberian, then shouldn't Aragon get French?

If French culture would be split into southern and northern, then yes (to southern).

Fate · 25-03-2002, 23:59

Then Granada should only get Iberian if it's split into Aragonese, Catalan, Castilian, and Portugese?

Deserteur · 26-03-2002, 00:19

hmmm this discussion is kinda weird

Granada with Iberian culture ok, but Aragón with French culture .. i don't know .. I think Iberians were much more integrated into Granada then French into Aragón. although I think that this should not be French, but Catalanian as culture for Rossi.., Gerona and Barcelona!

So there should be a new culture. Catalanian.
But if you start with this we will soon have more then the double of the cultures we have now!

Lambert Simnel · 26-03-2002, 00:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Fate
If Granada gets Iberian, then shouldn't Aragon get French?

One idea that has been mooted was to say that the main difference between those areas still under Islamic control and those areas that had been taken by the Christian kingdoms was in religion, then the Granadine provinces should have Iberian culture and Granada should only have Iberian as a state culture.

If you are of the culture-splitter persuasion then this would imply that there was a fourth Iberian sub-culture, Andalusian, that CAS has in addition to Castillian and GRA has as its sole culture. This Culture would be in all the Castillian and Granadine provinces south of Madrid.

Shadowstrike · 26-03-2002, 01:01

Cantonese culture is a fiction in the first place. During the EU period, they were no less intergrated into China then say, Hebei.

Fate · 26-03-2002, 01:40

You guys make no sense. Granada should have a blanket Iberian culture while Aragon shouldn't have a blanket French culture. I hardly believe that the Granadians integrated Portugese, Catalans, and Aragonese into their culture.

22-03-2002, 03:20	#1
Dracleath Second Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 116	Do some countries have too many state cultures? I've been playing around with the scenario files a little, and after some testing I think some countries would be fine to lose a few cultures. The AI in 1.04 seems to be MUCH better at handling rebellion, at least in provinces connected by land to thier power base (I tend to see AKK or the Timurids hold onto persia for 20 or 30 years after 1480, despite there being 5-6 % revolt risk there continuously, and England when it does well in the hundred years war will tend to only lose a couple of its newly conquered provinces over to independence or defection). I also see the ottomans run over the balkans even without greek or slavonic culture, and not have any really significant problems with revolts or a lowered economy. Having so many cultures for some states makes it far too easy for a human player to accumulate vast amounts of land and a huge economy (see burgundy). A few of the changes I've been playing with are as follows: Burgundy - French only Austria - German only (Why should austria start in 1419 with Hungarian, Czech, and Slovak?) Ottoman - Turkish only (similar situation as austria.) Byzantium - Greek only (although perhaps a case could be made for making a seperate bulgarian culture for bulgaria and rumelia and giving it to Byzantium also) Hungarian - Magyar only (they were already too powerful even when they only had magyar, and I don't think they even have a czech province in their borders anyway) China - Han only Sweeden - Sweedish only Novgorod - Russian only Navarre - Basque only The AI so far seems to not be impeded by any of this all that much, still expanding as historically as they ever do, so unless there are compelling historical reasons for keeping the extra cultures in these countries, I don't see any reason much to keep them around. Further testing is probably needed, though. Also, is there any way that the penalties for not having state culture or the cost/chance of conversion can be edited? I was thinking that in exchange for cutting some cultures, the penalties for not having state culture could be reduced slightly globally (especially for religious conversion), which I think would be more realistic in general. Ideally, the penalties would be very low at the beginning of the game and increase as nationalism became more and more of an idea, but that isn't really possible I guess.

25-03-2002, 06:27	#10
Jinnai Pure Evil Genius Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: El Hazard Posts: 10,107	wow...the pendulum has shifted...before people were saying there were too few cultures... __________________ Best WW Death Ever as Eliria the Very Mean Girl in WWLite XXXII: My Super Sweet Sixteen CK: DV Mod - Horde & Timurid Empire Mod v2.01 CK: DV Mod (Computable with DVIP) - Automated Courtier Education Events v3.03.01 Come Help me with my Dragon Quest Research Project

26-03-2002, 00:19	#17
Deserteur Colonel Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Europa Posts: 937	hmmm this discussion is kinda weird Granada with Iberian culture ok, but Aragón with French culture .. i don't know .. I think Iberians were much more integrated into Granada then French into Aragón. although I think that this should not be French, but Catalanian as culture for Rossi.., Gerona and Barcelona! So there should be a new culture. Catalanian. But if you start with this we will soon have more then the double of the cultures we have now! __________________ "Resurrection is our faith, reunion our hope, memory our love." "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

26-03-2002, 01:01	#19
Shadowstrike Terrestrial Liability #168 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stuck in the Walls of the Hagia Sophia Posts: 1,320	Cantonese culture is a fiction in the first place. During the EU period, they were no less intergrated into China then say, Hebei. __________________ grumbles about work

22-03-2002, 03:32	#2
PMLF Flamengo Fan Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rio de Janeiro (A Cidade Maravilhosa), Brazil Posts: 1,312	I think it's right the Ottomans having Greek and Arabic culture. On the other hand Slavonic culture should be replaced by Armenian one as an Ottoman State culture.

22-03-2002, 03:49	#3
Dracleath Second Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 116	I don't know. Constantinople and smyra actually change to turkish when the ottomans capture them, so they are not really an issue. The only thing the ottomans get out of greek culture is access to greece itself and a few of the minor islands and things. As for Arabic, most of the ottoman's arabic land was really in a vassalage type relationship. Egypt was nominally a part of the ottoman nation itself, but the real rulers there were still the mameluk beys, largely the same people in charge before the ottomans gained control of it. The ottoman governor there was referred to as a "captive hostage", and eventually the mameluks became so powerful that the ottomans had most of them killed, leading to big revolts and egypt's eventual independance. So I'd argue for ottomans not getting arabic just on those grounds, that they had to keep around the local leaders and allow them power just to maintain control of their arabic possessions.

22-03-2002, 10:19	#4
Doomfarer 7 shades of Darkness Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Exile in Sweden Posts: 396	I agree, several countries should have cultures removed. Austria for example should only start with German culture and then if the Hungarian inheritance goes through they should get Magyar as well. A good idea would probably be to have countries start with fewer cultures and then add to them with events if certain circumstances hold true.

22-03-2002, 14:15	#6
ryoken69 Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 2,744	Burgundy should have Dutch. I do think that German is too much, but they should not be just French. They only have 3 French provinces at the beginning of the game and dont really acquire any more. If they dont at least have dutch, they will be too weak to fend off the French. Then the French will have the Netherlands and the Austrians wont get it.........leading to more problems. So I think they should still have Dutch. If not for realism, for game balance.

22-03-2002, 21:58	#8
Dracleath Second Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 116	Perhaps an event to move them the capital to brabrant along with adding dutch culture after the annexation of brabant would be in order, then?

25-03-2002, 05:13	#9
Fate Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,082	Granada also has too many cultures. Perhaps just give them Berber.

25-03-2002, 23:39	#14
Fate Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,082	If Granada gets Iberian, then shouldn't Aragon get French?

25-03-2002, 23:59	#16
Fate Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,082	Then Granada should only get Iberian if it's split into Aragonese, Catalan, Castilian, and Portugese?

26-03-2002, 01:40	#20
Fate Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,082	You guys make no sense. Granada should have a blanket Iberian culture while Aragon shouldn't have a blanket French culture. I hardly believe that the Granadians integrated Portugese, Catalans, and Aragonese into their culture.