France - Ministers

[Captain Frakas]

French civilian cabinet.

I would like to improve a little the french cabinet, and the french elections, including the 3rd republic cabinet instability and also elections if France doesn't fall.

This thread start a work rather than give a final work.

As I understand how work the cabinet :

-Civilian slot-
the HoS is the "Président de la République".
the HoG is the "Président du Conseil".
the foreign minister is the "Ministre des Affaires Étrangères".
the armament minister is the "Ministre de la Guerre".
the security minister is the "Ministre de l'Intérieur".

They can be one steps right or left to the current ideology.

-Military slot-
the head of military intelligence is the leader of the "Deuxième Bureau"
the chief of staff is the leader of the "Êtat-Major des armées"
the chief of the army is the leader of the "Êtat-Major de l'armée de terre"
the chief of the navy is the leader of the "Êtat-Major de la marine"
the chief of the air forces is the leader of the "Êtat-Major de l'armée de l'air"

They can be three steps right or left to the current ideology.

How I understand Idéology/IIIrd republic party (but I'm really not sure for that) :



1. le Parti Social Français is Paternal Autocratic (?)

2. Fédération républicaine is Social Concervative

3. l'Alliance Démocratique is Market Libéral
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democra...lican_Alliance)

4. le Parti Républicain, Radical et Radical Socialiste is Social Libéral
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical...y_%28France%29)

5. la Section française de l'Internationale ouvrière is Social Democrate
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_..._International)

6. le Parti Communiste is Stalinist
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Communist_Party)


I'll do first the civilian post : HoS, HoG, Armament, Foreign and Security. for the IIIrd Republic


I. HEAD OF STATE
At game start : Albert Lebrun.

a. current CORE2 0.3 file :

FRA;Ruling Cabinet - Start;Name;Pool;Ideology;Personality;Loyalty;Picturename;x
;Replacements;;;;;;;x
2001;Head of State;Albert Lebrun;36;SL;Barking Buffoon;High;M2001;x
2022;Head of State;Vincent Auriol;47;SL;Autocratic Charmer;High;M2004;x
2023;Head of State;Daniel Mayer;44;SD;Weary Stiffneck;High;M2023;x
2030;Head of State;Maurice Thorez;36;ST;Powerhungry Demagogue;High;M2011;x
2031;Head of State;Charles de Gaulle;40;SC;Resigned Generalissimo;High;M2027;x
2032;Head of State;Jean de Bourbon;38;PA;Benevolent Gentleman;High;M2032;x
2207;Head of State;Albert Lebrun;36;SC;Barking Buffoon;Very High;M2001;x
2208;Head of State;Camille Chautemps;40;SL;Popular Figurehead;Very High;M2036;x
2211;Head of State;Henri-Honoré Giraud;40;PA;Weary Stiffneck;Very High;L24084;x
2236;Head of State;Vincent Auriol;47;SC;Autocratic Charmer;Medium;M2004;x

VIC;Ruling Cabinet - Start;Name;Pool;Ideology;Personality;Loyalty;Picturename;x
;Replacements;;;;;;;x
57001;Head of State;Phillipe Petain;36;PA;Resigned Generalissimo;High;M57001;x

b. What I suggest :
(not final)

FRA;Ruling Cabinet - Start;Name;Pool;Ideology;Personality;Loyalty;Picturename;x
;Replacements;;;;;;;x
2001;Head of State;Albert Lebrun;36;SL;Barking Buffoon;High;M2001;x
xxx0;Head of State;Philippe Pétain;36;PA;Benevolent Gentleman;High;M57001;x
2031;Head of State;Charles de Gaulle;36;SC;Resigned Generalissimo;High;M2027;x
2022;Head of State;Vincent Auriol;36;SD;Die-hard Reformer;High;M2004;x
xxx1;Head of State;Paul Faure;36;SD;Pig-headed Isolationist;High;Mxxx1;x
xxx2;Head of State;Marcel Cachin;36;ST;Die-hard Reformer;High;M2017;x
xxx3;Head of State;Albert Bedouce;36;SD;Insignificant Layman;High;Mxxx3;x
xxx4;Head of State;Édouard Herriot;36;SL;Popular Figurehead;High;M2042;x
xxx5;Head of State;Justin Godart;36;SC;Die-hard Reformer;High;Mxxx5;x
xxx6;Head of State;Fernand Bouisson;36;SL;Benevolent Gentleman;High;Mxxx6;x
xxx7;Head of State;François Piétri;36;SC;Insignificant Layman;High;Mxxx7;x
xxx8;Head of State;Auguste Champetier de Ribes;36;SL;Die-hard Reformer;High;Mxxx8;x
xxx9;Head of State;Michel Clemenceau;45;SC;Insignificant Layman;High;Mxxx9;x
xx10;Head of State;Jules Gasser;36;SD;Insignificant Layman;High;Mxx10;x
xx11;Head of State;Pierre Laval;36;FA;Power-Hungry Demagogue;High;M2040;
xx12;Head of State;François Darlan;40;PA;Stern Imperialist;High;M2009;x
2211;Head of State;Henri Giraud;40;SC;Weary Stiffneck;High;L24084;x
xx13;Head of State;Henri d'Orléans;40;PA;Autocratic Charmer;High;Mxx13;x

c. notes :

My changes on Auriol trait was motivated by the fact that he was hostile to the munich agreement, that he voted against giving full power to Pétain, that he never doubted that western democracy will won the war against fascists powers, and that he entered in the resistance. The effects and the description of a die-hard reformer seem to me more close to the reality than the Autocratic Charmer trait.


d. Pictures :

Mxxx1 : http://www.election-politique.com/im.../faure1932.jpg
Mxxx3 :
Mxxx5 : http://www.cnrseditions.fr/Couvertures/2271062357.gif ; http://www.lamaisondesevres.org/ami/car2.html ; http://www.election-politique.com/im...godard1939.jpg
Mxxx6 : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...d/Bouisson.jpg
Mxxx7 : http://www.minefi.gouv.fr/directions...042_pietri.jpg
Mxxx8 : http://www.election-politique.com/im...eribes1947.jpg
Mxxx9 : http://www.election-politique.com/im...enceau1947.jpg
Mxx10 :
Mxx13 : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...VIofFrance.jpg (I haven't finded an old picture of him, but I haven't really searched neither)

e. Thoses I'm not sure to Keep :

Other from the original

2030;Head of State;Maurice Thorez;36;ST;Powerhungry Demagogue;High;M2011;x

->Historically, Cachin was the communist candidate for the présidentielles (in 1931, 1932, 1939 and 1953). I rater see Thorez as an HoG, with Cachin as HoS.

2023;Head of State;Daniel Mayer;44;SD;Weary Stiffneck;High;M2023;x
2208;Head of State;Camille Chautemps;40;SL;Popular Figurehead;Very High;M2036;x

-> I can keep them both, but they haven't even try their chance in the HoS election of 32, 39, 46 or 53 (I prefers to erease them).

I don't keep :
2032;Head of State;Jean de Bourbon;38;PA;Benevolent Gentleman;High;M2032;x

-> Jean de Bourbon isn't ever recognised as potential king by the orléanist and the légitimist. Jean de Bourbon only claimed the spanish crown, not the french one.

2236;Head of State;Vincent Auriol;47;SC;Autocratic Charmer;Medium;M2004;x
2207;Head of State;Albert Lebrun;36;SC;Barking Buffoon;Very High;M2001;x

-> both already exist as HoS, no need to have a SC version because Hoi2 doenst' work like Hoi1.

f. Dying events :

Lebrun should die by event the 6th of March 1950
Pétain should die by event the 23rd of july 1951
Pétain should be eliminated if vichy is created and then lost it's confrontation with the free-french.
Laval should be eliminated if vichy is created and then lost it's confrontation with the free-french.
Bedouce should die the 4th of august 1947
Bouisson should be eliminated if vichy is created.
Champetier de Ribes should die the 6th of march 1947
Darlan could be assasinated arround the events of vichyst north africa under allied protectorate.

After thoses events, Darlan, Giraud, Orléans and de Gaulle compete to lead a new unified france...
Darlan and Giraud are prefered by the americans.
De Gaulle is prefered by free french.
Orléans want to try to use the rivality between Darlan and de Gaulle, and the monarchist values of Giraud to lead the united france as a "citizen" and then try to reintroduce the monarchy (but IMO, he have next to no chances for this second steps).


g. *Presidential election*
(I'll do them later, when I have all civilian ministers) :

i 5 april 1939

choix_a : Albert Lebrun (Alliance démocratique) (56%)
choix_b : Albert Bedouce (SFIO) (17%)
choix_c : Marcel Cachin (PCF) (8%)
choix_d : Edouard Herriot (Radical) (6%)
(historicaly, other candidates where : Godart (5%) Bouisson (2%) Piétri (1%))

ii 16 Jan 1947

choix_a : Vincent Auriol (SFIO) (51%)
choix_b : Auguste Champetier de Ribes (MRP) (27%)
choix_c : Jules Gasser (Radical Socialiste) (14%)
choix_d : Michel Clemenceau (Parti républicain de la liberté) (7%)

iii another one in 1953, but I assume that now, CORE2 will use the 1952 enddate of armageddon rather than the 1958 or the 1964.


II. HEAD OF GOVERNEMENT
At game start : Pierre Laval.

a. current CORE2 0.3 file :

FRA;Ruling Cabinet - Start;Name;Pool;Ideology;Personality;Loyalty;Picturename;x
;Replacements;;;;;;;x
2002;Head of Government;Albert Sarraut;36;SL;Happy Amateur;High;M2002;x
2033;Head of Government;Léon Blum;36;SD;Naive Optimist;High;M2033;x
2034;Head of Government;Felix Gouin;40;SD;Smiling Oilman;High;M2034;x
2035;Head of Government;Paul Ramadier;47;SD;Ambitious Union Boss;High;M2035;x
2036;Head of Government;Camille Chautemps;37;SL;Silent Workhorse;High;M2036;x
2037;Head of Government;Edouard Daladier;38;SD;Naive Optimist;High;M2037;x
2038;Head of Government;Paul Reynaud;40;SL;Political Protege;High;M2038;x
2039;Head of Government;Georges Bidault;46;ML;Old General;High;M2039;x
2040;Head of Government;Pierre Laval;36;SC;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2040;x
2041;Head of Government;André Marie;38;SC;Happy Amateur;High;M2041;x
2042;Head of Government;Edouard Herriot;40;SC;Naive Optimist;High;M2042;x
2043;Head of Government;Antoine Henri Queuille;41;SC;Corporate Suit;High;M2043;x
2044;Head of Government;Jacques Duclos;36;ST;Backroom Backstabber;High;M2012;x
2045;Head of Government;Marcel Cachin;38;ST;Silent Workhorse;High;M2017;x
2046;Head of Government;Charles de Gaulle;40;SC;Old General;High;M2027;x
2047;Head of Government;Jean-Marie Lattre de Tassigny;38;SC;Old General;High;M2047;x
2201;Head of Government;Robert Schumann;47;SL;Corporate Suit;High;M2088;x
2209;Head of Government;Louis-Georges Mandel;40;SL;Backroom Backstabber;Medium;M2108;x
2212;Head of Government;Henri-Honoré Giraud;40;PA;Old General;Very High;L24084;x
2216;Head of Government;Robert Schumann;47;ML;Corporate Suit;High;M2088;x
2218;Head of Government;René Pleven;50;ML;Political Protege;High;M2090;x
2219;Head of Government;Edgar Faure;52;SD;Backroom Backstabber;High;M2219;x
2220;Head of Government;Antoine Pinay;52;ML;Silent Workhorse;High;M2220;x
2221;Head of Government;René Mayer;53;SL;Naive Optimist;High;M2221;x
2222;Head of Government;Joseph Laniel;53;SC;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2222;x

VIC;Ruling Cabinet - Start;Name;Pool;Ideology;Personality;Loyalty;Picturename;x
;Replacements;;;;;;;x
57002;Head of Government;Jean-Francois Darlan;36;PA;Old Admiral;High;M57002;x
57011;Head of Government;Pierre Laval;42;PA;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M57011;x
57039;Head of Government;Henri de Jouvenel;45;PA;Insignificant Layman;High;M57017;x

b. What I suggest :
(not finished)

FRA;Ruling Cabinet - Start;Name;Pool;Ideology;Personality;Loyalty;Picturename;x
;Replacements;;;;;;;x
2040;Head of Government;Pierre Laval;36;FA;Political Protege;High;M2040;x
2002;Head of Government;Albert Sarraut;36;SL;Naive Optimist;High;M2002;x
2033;Head of Government;Léon Blum;36;SD;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2033;x
2036;Head of Government;Camille Chautemps;36;SL;Naive Optimist;High;M2036;x
2037;Head of Government;Édouard Daladier;36;SL;Naive Optimist;High;M2037;x
2038;Head of Government;Paul Reynaud;36;SL;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2038;x
xx14;Head of Government;Philippe Pétain;36;PA;Old General;High;M57001;x
xx15;Head of Government;Pierre-Étienne Flandin;36;SC;Naive Optimist;High;M2003;x
xx16;Head of Government;François Darlan;40;PA;Old Admiral;High;M2009;x
2046;Head of Government;Charles de Gaulle;36;SC;Old General;High;M2027;x
2034;Head of Government;Félix Gouin;46;SD;Silent Workhorse;High;M2034;x
2039;Head of Government;Georges Bidault;44;SL;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2039;x
xx17;Head of Government;Vincent Auriol;36;SD;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2004;x
2035;Head of Government;Paul Ramedier;38;SD;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2035;x
2201;Head of Government;Robert Schuman;46;SL;Silent Workhorse;High;M2088;x
2041;Head of Government;André Marie;47;SL;Silent Workhorse;High;M2041;x
xx18;Head of Government;Henri Queuille;36;SD;Happy Amateur;High;M2043;x
2218;Head of Government;René Pleven;42;SD;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2090;x
2219;Head of Government;Edgar Faure;49;SD;Silent Workhorse;High;M2219;x
2220;Head of Government;Antoine Pinay;48;ML;Corporate Suit;High;M2220;x
2221;Head of Government;René Mayer;44;SL;Corporate Suit;High;M2221;x
2222;Head of Government;Joseph Laniel;48;SC;Corporate Suit;High;M2222;x
xx19;Head of Government;Maurice Thaurez;36;ST;Ambitious Union Boss;High;M2011;x
xx20;Head of Government;Jacques Doriot;40;NS;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;Mxx20;x
xx21;Head of Government;Marcel Déat;40;FA;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2183;x
xx22;Head of Government;Francisque Gay;45;SL;Silent Workhorse;High;Mxx22;
xx23;Head of Government;Pierre-Henri Teitgen;44;SL;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2224;
xx24;Head of Government;Robert Lecourt;47;SL;Old General;High;M2231;
xx25;Head of Government;Jules Moch;38;SD;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2104;
xx26;Head of Government;Guy Mollet;46;SD;Flamboyant Tough Guy;High;M2071;

c. Pictures :
Mxx20 : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...2/Doriot_3.jpg
Mxx22 : http://www.umce.ca/hoteldieustbasile...7/am_1779a.jpg
(the one with the beard)

e. notes :

(note : I'm not sure that I want Déat and Doriot as HoG..., but we could keep them here if Laval, Pétain and Darlan ar assassinated via the intelligence tab).



Other from the original

FRA;Ruling Cabinet - Start;Name;Pool;Ideology;Personality;Loyalty;Pictu rename;x
;Replacements;;;;;;;x
2042;Head of Government;Edouard Herriot;40;SC;Naive Optimist;High;M2042;x

-> why not, he was HoG in the 192x and in 1932.

2044;Head of Government;Jacques Duclos;36;ST;Backroom Backstabber;High;M2012;x
2045;Head of Government;Marcel Cachin;38;ST;Silent Workhorse;High;M2017;x

-> why not, but I rater see Cachin as HoS and Duclos at another office (forreign, security and/or armament)

2047;Head of Government;Jean-Marie Lattre de Tassigny;38;SC;Old General;High;M2047;x

-> was see by de Gaulle as it's political dauphin, but died before him and never have been at ministerial office

2209;Head of Government;Louis-Georges Mandel;40;SL;Backroom Backstabber;Medium;M2108;x

-> He never was HoG, but why not. Should rather be a Flamboyant Tough Guy, and in the 36 pool if we include him. Was assasinated by the collaborationist milice the 7th of july 1944. Call him George Mandel

2212;Head of Government;Henri-Honoré Giraud;40;PA;Old General;Very High;L24084;x

-> could be usefull in some variant of the fight for lead fighting France.

2216;Head of Government;Robert Schumann;47;ML;Corporate Suit;High;M2088;x

-> already in game

VIC;Ruling Cabinet - Start;Name;Pool;Ideology;Personality;Loyalty;Pictu rename;x
;Replacements;;;;;;;x
57039;Head of Government;Henri de Jouvenel;45;PA;Insignificant Layman;High;M57017;x

-> six feet under at gamestart (1935)

f. Die :
Laval should be eliminated if vichy is created and then lost it's confrontation with the free-french.
Sarraut should be eliminated if vichy is created
Blum should die the 30th of mars 1950
Chautemps should be eliminated if vichy is created
Pétain should die by event the 23rd of july 1951
Pétain should be eliminated if vichy is created and then lost it's confrontation with the free-french.
Darlan could be assasinated arround the events of vichyst north africa under allied protectorate.

g. legislatives events, and governement instability

i. Governement fall :
22 janvier 36
HoG : Sarraut (SL)
foreign : Flandin (ML)
security : Sarraut (SL)
armament : Maurin (SC)


ii. *Legislatives elections*
4 june 36

Choix_a : Popular Front
HoG : Blum (SD)
Foreign : Delbos (SL)
security : Salengro (SD) [die 16 nov. then Dormoy (SD)]
armament : Daladier (SL)

Choix_b : center coalition
Choix_c : right coalition

iii. *Governement fall*
22 june 37
HoG : Chautemps (SL)
Foreign : Delbos (SL)
security : Dormoy (SD)
armament : Daladier (SL)

iv. *Governement fall*
13 march 38
HoG : Blum (SD)
Foreign : Paul-Boncour (SL)
security : Dormoy (SD)
armament : Daladier (SL)

v. *Governement fall*
12 april 38
HoG : Daladier (SL)
Foreign : Bonnet (SL)
security : Sarraut (SL)
armament : Daladier (SL)

vi. *governement fall*
21 march 40
HoG : Reynaud (ML)
Foreign : Reynaud (ML) [10 may] Daladier (SL) [5 june] Reynaud (ML)
security : Roy (SL) [18 may] Mandel (SC)
armament : Daladier (SL)

vii. *governement fall*
16 june 40
HoG : Pétain (PA)
Foreign : Baudoin (SC)
security : Pomaret (SL) [26 june] Marquet (FA)
armament : Weygand (SC)

viii. *institutionnal coup*
10 jully 40

choix_a : full powers to the Maréchal
HOS : Petain
HoG : Laval
Foreign : Baudoin
security : Marquet (SFIO) [sept 40] Peyrouton (radical de droite)
armament : Weygand [sept 40] Huntziger (action française)

choix_b : no way !

[dec152000]

Hi,

OMG. That was a lot of work. I don't know much about the RW French politics myself so this would be nice. If you could flesh out the lectoral events I think the team would be quite interested in these options. BTW, do you happen to know what caused these government failures? Related to anything modeled in game or strictly internal French politics?

mm

[Captain Frakas]

Originally Posted by dec152000

Hi,
BTW, do you happen to know what caused these government failures? Related to anything modeled in game or strictly internal French politics?

mm

It's an institutional bug

Under the 3rd republic, nobody can rule without finding a coalition with at least two other political party. As soon as the other partical party in the coalition are not agree in the policy to follow, the governement is fired, and another is created to meet the coalised party agreement.

[HistoryMan]

One quick comment here - you have de Gaulle as a potential HoS from 1936 - I don't think that is a realistic possibility, since he was (at that time) an unknown Army officer (he was only a Colonel in 1939, after all).

He was very opportunistic to be able to take the position of "leader of the Free French" after the collapse of France and the Petain takeover - he was still only a Brigadier-General (having been appointed to Divisional command only on 15th May 1940) and a junior Cabinet minister (appointed by Paul Reynaud on 6th June 1940 as Undersecretary of State for National Defence and War - a position that wouldn't even make it into the HoI Cabinet slots, I'd say).

To be honest, I'd say he should not have a position as a Minister for FRA until such time as Free France (for which he can be a Minister, assuming that is a separate TAG, from the date of its' appearance) effectively becomes recognised as the "legitimate" successor to France, as opposed to Vichy being such - that is going to be somewhere in mid-war, I guess, historically, though even then (as you mention) the Americans aren't keen on de Gaulle.

I'd move him to a date of (say) 1942 or so - and he should only be an option if he led Free France as a successful entity. Remember, if Germany goes for total conquest, it could theoretically release a puppet FRA - I cannot see de Gaulle ever being a Minister (or leader) for such a state.

Tim

[GeneralHannibal]

Also, the governments falling should be choices, but you get dissent if you keep the current gov't.

[baylox]

Captain Frakas - can you please take this over to the CORE forum (www.terranova.dk) and the appropriate sub-forum and thread. Around here things can get lost in static... and this looks too interesting to lose out on.