1st day wars - gamey?

Wombat101 · 16-07-2007, 14:49

I started a new campaign recently as Siena and seeing the dire situation Siena starts in, decided that if I didn't expand at least somewhat at the very beginning, I was going to become easy prey any number of my neighbors.

So first turn, I took a loan, hired as many mercs as I could and declared war on Tuscany. I don't feel like it was too gamey since Tuscany starts off Allied with Milan (but lucky for me they were vassalized by Venice before they could back-up Tuscany).

With the help of the Mercs, I was able to take Pisa and vassalize Tuscany. With a solid base I feel more secure for my future endevours.

I never really considered 1st day wars before and although I can semi-rationalize it for Siena (since Tuscany was allied), would it be considered gamey to do the same with other small duchies to achieve the same end (i.e. take someone on individually before they have a chance to form an alliance)?

This is a single player game, but I'm also interested if it would be considered gamey in a MP game.

Bad Santa · 16-07-2007, 14:53

i do 1st day wars all the time it makes it more interesting from the start, also i dont think it is to gamey because in those times wars were fought all the time and mercs were used very often so i dont think it matters to much it you start a war on the 1st day.

Beware my Eire · 16-07-2007, 15:32

Why is it gamey? and why would it become ungamey if you wait 30 days.
Its your country your first turn DoW if you want and need, the loan and the mercs are a little gamey but more understandable due to you small size.
Also the computer sometimes starts you with an army significantly larger than you want or need why not blow some of it away so you can keep the regiments but at lower troop numbers

Il pirata · 16-07-2007, 16:04

It depends what kind of a game you want to play?
If you just want to play a country and do everything that is best for the country, well congratulations you did that , and at the right time.
If you want to play a historical correct game, then you should have made sure you had a Cb against tuscany.

comagoosie · 16-07-2007, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wombat101
So first turn, I took a loan,

What I have learned as playing minors is that taking a loan is sucicde. You keep extending it and extending and paying more and more interest. Hope you form italy playing as Siena.

Wombat101 · 16-07-2007, 16:29

The loan wasn't that hard to pay back as, as soon I won the war, I disbanded the mercs. I suppose Tuscany had a lot of unspent cash also due to occupying their provinces so I was also able to net 100 gold during the vasslization.

What happened next was also a good brush of luck. Modena went to war with the Pope and won Ragusa. Then there was a major revolt in Modena and Firenzia declared independence (this is ID mod). I then allied with Mantua and they declared war on Modena. With one army I was able to take Ragusa while Mantua took the capital. Since Firenzia was just sitting there all alone, I invaded it also and vassalized it.

It's a pretty good start for little Siena who does dream of one day uniting Italy. But everything from here on will remain very tough as Rome is a vassal of Austria, Milan is a vassal of a huge Venice, and Sicily remains fully intact.

One day I may try a game in which I don't declare war without a CB, especially if there were some way to mod all nations to do the same. But it feels that if you don't occasionally start wars without them, everyone around you does. In a few test games to try out the initial strategies, Tuscany would routinely go to war with Urbino or Modena or myself, the Papal States would always be at war with someone. And there's no way any of these nations had CB within 3 days of game start on any other nation.

isca · 16-07-2007, 16:56

I personally don't do 1st day wars. I give at least a week for alliances to form. But I think you're right with Tuscany, in that they ARE allied from the start, so it's less of a concern.

It's probably worth pointing out that it's a computer game. You're not going to hell or anything. Unless you convert to the wrong religion. Then you're going to hell. But not over Tuscany...

Brian Bóruma · 16-07-2007, 16:58

Depends on the situation. Sometimes it's more gamey to wait for them to grab allies, if you intend to conquer or vassal said allies.

Wombat101 · 16-07-2007, 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by isca

I personally don't do 1st day wars. I give at least a week for alliances to form. But I think you're right with Tuscany, in that they ARE allied from the start, so it's less of a concern.

It's probably worth pointing out that it's a computer game. You're not going to hell or anything. Unless you convert to the wrong religion. Then you're going to hell. But not over Tuscany...

Har...I'm not too worried about going to hell just yet, at least not until I kick the pope out of Rome.

balinus · 16-07-2007, 19:39

Since the scenario starts with a historical setting I think it's not gamey.

If you want to dow an un-allied country after 10 yrs of play, it's gamey also?

Bismark776 · 16-07-2007, 20:55

Its gamey because you take advantage of the fact that you know that most countries won't form alliances before the first day and that at any other point in the game if you attack your neighbors you'll probably have to fight several opponents. Therefore you take advantage of this prior knowledge that has nothing to do with actual in-game relevence. Essentially you are going against the "spirit" of the game which is to control a country within a historical setting.

020Tom020 · 16-07-2007, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by comagoosie

What I have learned as playing minors is that taking a loan is sucicde. You keep extending it and extending and paying more and more interest. Hope you form italy playing as Siena.

Yep, a 1.5 ducaat the month not in research for 5 years with a minor,

balinus · 16-07-2007, 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bismark776

Its gamey because you take advantage of the fact that you know that most countries won't form alliances before the first day and that at any other point in the game if you attack your neighbors you'll probably have to fight several opponents. Therefore you take advantage of this prior knowledge that has nothing to do with actual in-game relevence. Essentially you are going against the "spirit" of the game which is to control a country within a historical setting.

I fail to see your point. Who told you anyway that it was prior knowledge? I just don't know if Teutonic Order is allied or not until I load the game which becomes "in-game relevent" information.

About the formation of alliance... I thought the initial setting of any game (1st day) was historical.... so in the "spirit" of the game as you put it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bismark776

and that at any other point in the game if you attack your neighbors you'll probably have to fight several opponents.

This is mostly untrue. It happen that some of my neighbours are un-allied sometimes during the game. What's the difference between attacking your un-allied neighbour after 10 yrs of play or right at the beginning? In both case they weren't clever gamewise (after 10 yrs) or historically (1st day).

16-07-2007, 14:49	#1
Wombat101 First Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 269	1st day wars - gamey? I started a new campaign recently as Siena and seeing the dire situation Siena starts in, decided that if I didn't expand at least somewhat at the very beginning, I was going to become easy prey any number of my neighbors. So first turn, I took a loan, hired as many mercs as I could and declared war on Tuscany. I don't feel like it was too gamey since Tuscany starts off Allied with Milan (but lucky for me they were vassalized by Venice before they could back-up Tuscany). With the help of the Mercs, I was able to take Pisa and vassalize Tuscany. With a solid base I feel more secure for my future endevours. I never really considered 1st day wars before and although I can semi-rationalize it for Siena (since Tuscany was allied), would it be considered gamey to do the same with other small duchies to achieve the same end (i.e. take someone on individually before they have a chance to form an alliance)? This is a single player game, but I'm also interested if it would be considered gamey in a MP game.

16-07-2007, 16:56	#7
isca The Ferret Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Maegdan Stane, Kent, UK Posts: 779	I personally don't do 1st day wars. I give at least a week for alliances to form. But I think you're right with Tuscany, in that they ARE allied from the start, so it's less of a concern. It's probably worth pointing out that it's a computer game. You're not going to hell or anything. Unless you convert to the wrong religion. Then you're going to hell. But not over Tuscany... __________________ Mustela putorius furo "Historians are gossips who tease the dead." - Voltaire

16-07-2007, 16:58	#8
Brian Bóruma High King (With Opposition) Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Empire of Ireland (1005 - 1014) Posts: 698	Depends on the situation. Sometimes it's more gamey to wait for them to grab allies, if you intend to conquer or vassal said allies. __________________ Dílis d'ár n-Oidhreacht. True to Our Heritage. 1 Clerk Nationality: Irish Religion: Catholic Ideology: Reactionary Issues: Moralism/Laissez-faire Militancy: 3 (+0.49) Consciousness: 8 (-0.64)

16-07-2007, 19:39	#10
balinus Dancing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Québec Posts: 2,205	Since the scenario starts with a historical setting I think it's not gamey. If you want to dow an un-allied country after 10 yrs of play, it's gamey also? __________________ ICQ - 314-872-293

16-07-2007, 14:53	#2
Bad Santa I edited this for the lulz.. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: UK Posts: 523	i do 1st day wars all the time it makes it more interesting from the start, also i dont think it is to gamey because in those times wars were fought all the time and mercs were used very often so i dont think it matters to much it you start a war on the 1st day.

16-07-2007, 15:32	#3
Beware my Eire Second Lieutenant Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 122	Why is it gamey? and why would it become ungamey if you wait 30 days. Its your country your first turn DoW if you want and need, the loan and the mercs are a little gamey but more understandable due to you small size. Also the computer sometimes starts you with an army significantly larger than you want or need why not blow some of it away so you can keep the regiments but at lower troop numbers

16-07-2007, 16:04	#4
Il pirata Sergeant Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 77	It depends what kind of a game you want to play? If you just want to play a country and do everything that is best for the country, well congratulations you did that , and at the right time. If you want to play a historical correct game, then you should have made sure you had a Cb against tuscany.

16-07-2007, 16:29	#6
Wombat101 First Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 269	The loan wasn't that hard to pay back as, as soon I won the war, I disbanded the mercs. I suppose Tuscany had a lot of unspent cash also due to occupying their provinces so I was also able to net 100 gold during the vasslization. What happened next was also a good brush of luck. Modena went to war with the Pope and won Ragusa. Then there was a major revolt in Modena and Firenzia declared independence (this is ID mod). I then allied with Mantua and they declared war on Modena. With one army I was able to take Ragusa while Mantua took the capital. Since Firenzia was just sitting there all alone, I invaded it also and vassalized it. It's a pretty good start for little Siena who does dream of one day uniting Italy. But everything from here on will remain very tough as Rome is a vassal of Austria, Milan is a vassal of a huge Venice, and Sicily remains fully intact. One day I may try a game in which I don't declare war without a CB, especially if there were some way to mod all nations to do the same. But it feels that if you don't occasionally start wars without them, everyone around you does. In a few test games to try out the initial strategies, Tuscany would routinely go to war with Urbino or Modena or myself, the Papal States would always be at war with someone. And there's no way any of these nations had CB within 3 days of game start on any other nation.

16-07-2007, 20:55	#11
Bismark776 First Lieutenant Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 258	Its gamey because you take advantage of the fact that you know that most countries won't form alliances before the first day and that at any other point in the game if you attack your neighbors you'll probably have to fight several opponents. Therefore you take advantage of this prior knowledge that has nothing to do with actual in-game relevence. Essentially you are going against the "spirit" of the game which is to control a country within a historical setting.