Westernisation

[kolmy]

What do you think about it? Is it good as it is? It's realistic that New World and African Countries can westernize with just a border, good relations with a Latin tech country and a 5 ADM monarch while the other countries must be high innovative and have a great leader? Should the Indian and the Chinese tech group countries be able to westernize too?

[dharper]

I personally like Cagliostro's changes to techgroups in Imago Dei. Your research speed is based on many issues and can vary as the game goes on, without changing your techgroup (and thus the provinces you can see and units you can build). Want to westernize as China? You'll have to change your sliders.

[ComradeOm]

I like these events. The innovation requirements are severe and will take a century or two for a tribal government and effectively models the transformation of society needed to leave the tech group. What I would like to see is the Christianity requirement restored for those nations looking to join the Latin group.

[Mrdie]

IMHO it should allow you to build (very inefficient) boats. A weak transport ship and a weak offense ship. Make them expensive too for extra balance.

Forever penalizing a Native American tribe who can never expand outside the Americas is just dumb.

[OttomanSipahi]

Is it dumb or is it just realisitic. Name the large navies that the native americans were building at the time and the advanced sails and compasses found in the new world. I do not remember seeing native americans sailing the atlantic and exploring other parts of the world. The game is called Europa Universalis for a reason and it models the time period during which Europe began its dominance of the globe. If you want a North America Universalis then it can start in 1900 and can show the USA's rise to world power.

[Mrdie]

So basically anyone who is playing as Native Americans should be eternally screwed? Even Africans shouldn't be able to build boats? It should require westernization to build boats, that is already a bit of a challenge. Then it should be expensive, so that is another. Then it should be weak. Throw it attrition penalty too if you wish. The thing is, in a game that is already so into alternate history that you see stuff like the Timurids becoming a massive power just about every game, I really don't see any problem with letting natives have boats. Maybe even have it so only the player can build boats and problem solved.

It isn't meant for them to build huge navies, it is meant for them to at least get a tiny, tiny chance of world conquest with a player. Or at least some expansion into Europe and such. Sure, that isn't historical, but neither is world conquest in general.

[ComradeOm]

The ability to build ocean going vessels isn't just the technology or knowledge required to assemble a ship. Rather its the generations of marine tradition that accompanies the development of a naval infrastructure and local industry. Even with Westernisation it would be practically impossible for the Native Americans to reach the point where they could produce ocean going vessels within the EU timeframe.

[Mrdie]

I still think that forever penalizing Native Americans is a bad idea. But come on, if a player conquers just about all of the Americas, fends off European invasion, westernizes, and so on, is it really too much to ask for at least the ability to build some tiny über-primitive ships? I don't think the player would care much about realism at that point.

[Manila Galleon]

I still think that forever penalizing Native Americans is a bad idea

I agree. I was looking forward to being able to steal spanish guns and fight back with the Aztecs in EUIII lol! Even the Zulus managed that with the British in africa.

Perhaps transports that can only travel within one sea province of the land (i.e. coasts)? Not exactly unrealistic given the presence of natives in the Carribean. Certainly I think you should be able to change your government type after first contact with Europeans.

[PrawnStar]

I'd like to see everyone have the ability to build coastal craft - and I can't help thinking that's pretty much what the galley class could do.

[Aethis]

It's easy to outnumber European nations so much as the Incas or a MesoAmerican state that they simply do not declare war on you, this gives you a chance to westernise. This is because there is so much gold and other expensive resources that provide you with more money than you can use.

[kolmy]

What about the extreme difficult conditions needed to westernize as a eastern power? It is correct? Shouldn't it be more easy than the New World powers? After all, westernizing requires a great change in your society (especially in American ones...)

[BennyB]

Just a semi-related question regarding westernization (through cheating), how would one alter the tech group of a country at game start?

[pconners]

Go into the history\country folder, open the text file of the country you wish to edit, the "technology_group" field is about 10 lines down, change it to the group you want, and voila you are done.

[knott]

Originally Posted by ComradeOm

I like these events. The innovation requirements are severe and will take a century or two for a tribal government and effectively models the transformation of society needed to leave the tech group. What I would like to see is the Christianity requirement restored for those nations looking to join the Latin group.

Isnt it very unmarxistic to think that progress and development should be tied to religen

[BennyB]

Originally Posted by pconners

Go into the history\country folder, open the text file of the country you wish to edit, the "technology_group" field is about 10 lines down, change it to the group you want, and voila you are done.

Thanks, how do I fix the problem of being in terra incognita after I alter the tech group?

[spl]

I think the japanese should be able to westernize too, in real life they onlyhad a little westernization, but it could be separate event that does not change it all

[kolmy]

I think that all nations (maybe excluding Ming) should be able to Westernize...

[Korsan82]

Westernization should be terminated. There should be no fix restrictions for different cultures. I mean Europeans were advanced not because they were Europeans, they worked for it and had the ressources for it. Every country that hat the same ressources and ambitions should be equal to Western culutures. It'S senseless to make restriction like 0,7 or 0,2 for other countries

[kolmy]

Originally Posted by Korsan82

Westernization should be terminated. There should be no fix restrictions for different cultures. I mean Europeans were advanced not because they were Europeans, they worked for it and had the ressources for it. Every country that hat the same ressources and ambitions should be equal to Western culutures. It'S senseless to make restriction like 0,7 or 0,2 for other countries

I would also like that... A new system, with no tech groups and that I think it would be easy to implement, where certain discoveries can pop up that will make your country go forward would be better, IMHO. The investment sliders would be for implementing these ideas around the country and when was no discoveries, you would just invest in research to get new ones. This discoveries can pop up anywhere, although, there would be places where certain discoveries pop up earlier, the reason why the Industrial Revolution appeared in England and not in Netherlands (this is where is the restrictions to each region, so for Europeans, it's likely to have more discoveries popping up than in Asia or Africa) and will spread. You may control the spreading, anyway, it would be harder for big nations, trading powers or a nation with too many neighbors to do so (especially when they are stronger than you), this discoveries could be also stole by spies. It requires a bit more micromanagement, but it would make the game less deterministic and add some flavor, but with no big balance issues (I think).