Cortes and China

mlipo · 26-06-2007, 18:11

From Conquest: Montezuma, Cortes, and the Fall of Old Mexico by Hugh Thomas:

(Cortes had just forced Mont. to swear fealty to Charles)

"He then sought to console the Mexicans, and assured them that he would always treat them well. He even told Montezuma that they together would soon set about conquering a bigger empire than the present Mexican one...It may well have represented, if fleetingly, a genuine ambition of Cortes: why should not Montezuma's army, with Cortes' weapons, conquer China-which everyone believed to be near at hand?"

This was in 1520. Was China STILL believed to be nearby?

Leviathan07 · 26-06-2007, 18:16

Well, Magellan only made it back to Spain in 1522, so until then you couldn't really be sure just how big the Pacific ocean was (or if there was even a landbridge to known countries further west from mexico)

mlipo · 26-06-2007, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leviathan07

Well, Magellan only made it back to Spain in 1522, so until then you couldn't really be sure just how big the Pacific ocean was (or if there was even a landbridge to known countries further west from mexico)

But I thought that Columbus's estimates of the earth's circumference were wildly optimistic, which was one of the reasons he had trouble getting the expedition going in the first place.

bogmih · 26-06-2007, 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlipo

But I thought that Columbus's estimates of the earth's circumference were wildly optimistic, which was one of the reasons he had trouble getting the expedition going in the first place.

Yes, they were, but I guess that after he found land, many people must have wondered weather he was right all along. Of course, by 1520 they already knew what they had found wasn't exactly China or India, but they couldn't know how far were they beyond America.

Aetius · 27-06-2007, 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlipo

But I thought that Columbus's estimates of the earth's circumference were wildly optimistic, which was one of the reasons he had trouble getting the expedition going in the first place.

If I remember correctly they were off by about the size of the Pacific...

Hamath · 28-06-2007, 17:51

Even in 1600, people were looking for a way through america to China (landbridges in the north and rivers through the colonial USA, who would lead to the pacific, and, for a moment, they tought that the Mississippi wàs that river

)

mlipo · 28-06-2007, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamath

Even in 1600, people were looking for a way through america to China (landbridges in the north and rivers through the colonial USA, who would lead to the pacific, and, for a moment, they tought that the Mississippi wàs that river

)

Right, but they didn't think China was close-they just didn't want to go around South America. The quest for the Northwest Passage went far beyond 1600. IIRC, that was part of Lewis and Clark's mission.

The whole point of the original post was I thought that by 1520, it was understood that China was NOT close-I guess I was wrong.

Aryaman · 28-06-2007, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leviathan07

Well, Magellan only made it back to Spain in 1522, so until then you couldn't really be sure just how big the Pacific ocean was (or if there was even a landbridge to known countries further west from mexico)

Magellan never made it back to Spain

Rinmaru · 11-07-2007, 23:56

He got killed by Lapo-Lapo(sp) in Cebu.

Leviathan07 · 12-07-2007, 12:50

Well, yes, he never made it back, but one of his ships did, and they confirmed that the Pacific really was a large and mostly empty body of sea.

jeffg006 · 18-07-2007, 18:25

Yes they certainly did believe china was close, dumb dumbs that they were. People saw nothing wrong with Sir Humphrey Gilbert - who was born in 1530's - to search for China by going north over the Canadian islands. They thought it would be right there.

In Canada into the 17th century explorers were trekking deep inland into the forests and followed the rivers looking for a route to China - they asked the natives where to find the Pacific Ocean where they would find china right there. As the translation of the Pacific Ocean for the natives was 'Great Waters' the indians took them instead to the Canadian Great Lakes

what a dissapointment for those Europeans.

Divi · 18-07-2007, 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffg006

Yes they certainly did believe china was close, dumb dumbs that they were. People saw nothing wrong with Sir Humphrey Gilbert - who was born in 1530's - to search for China by going north over the Canadian islands. They thought it would be right there.

In Canada into the 17th century explorers were trekking deep inland into the forests and followed the rivers looking for a route to China - they asked the natives where to find the Pacific Ocean where they would find china right there. As the translation of the Pacific Ocean for the natives was 'Great Waters' the indians took them instead to the Canadian Great Lakes

what a dissapointment for those Europeans.

One of Montreal's boroughs supposedly bears its name because of La Salle's obsession, well past the 30YW, to find the way to the northwest passage; the colonial government supposedly gave him the lordship of Lachine as a mockery.

26-06-2007, 18:11	#1
mlipo Lt. General Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Kingston, PA, USA Posts: 1,596	Cortes and China From Conquest: Montezuma, Cortes, and the Fall of Old Mexico by Hugh Thomas: (Cortes had just forced Mont. to swear fealty to Charles) "He then sought to console the Mexicans, and assured them that he would always treat them well. He even told Montezuma that they together would soon set about conquering a bigger empire than the present Mexican one...It may well have represented, if fleetingly, a genuine ambition of Cortes: why should not Montezuma's army, with Cortes' weapons, conquer China-which everyone believed to be near at hand?" This was in 1520. Was China STILL believed to be nearby? __________________ Ricky Bobby: [running around on the track in his underwear, thinking he is on fire] Help me Jesus! Help me Jewish God! Help me Allah! AAAAAHHH! Help me Tom Cruise! Tom Cruise, use your witchcraft on me to get the fire off me! Last edited by mlipo; 26-06-2007 at 18:30.

11-07-2007, 23:56	#9
Rinmaru Trapped in a Woman's Body Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas, USA Posts: 91	He got killed by Lapo-Lapo(sp) in Cebu. __________________ "The art of using troops is this: ......When ten to the enemy's one, surround him; ......When five times his strength, attack him; ......If double his strength, divide him; ......If equally matched you may engage him; ......If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing; ......And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him, ..........for a small force is but booty for one more powerful." - Sun Tzu, the Art Of War

18-07-2007, 18:25	#11
jeffg006 Armchair General w/ cupholder Join Date: May 2002 Location: the celestial kingdom Posts: 557	Yes they certainly did believe china was close, dumb dumbs that they were. People saw nothing wrong with Sir Humphrey Gilbert - who was born in 1530's - to search for China by going north over the Canadian islands. They thought it would be right there. In Canada into the 17th century explorers were trekking deep inland into the forests and followed the rivers looking for a route to China - they asked the natives where to find the Pacific Ocean where they would find china right there. As the translation of the Pacific Ocean for the natives was 'Great Waters' the indians took them instead to the Canadian Great Lakes what a dissapointment for those Europeans. __________________ “I can make a lord... but only God can make a gentleman.” (King James I of England, VI of Scotland) "... What remains?" cried Ivanhoe, "Glory, maiden, glory! which gilds our sepulchre - and embalms our name." (Sir Walter Scott) AARS: Regnum Angevinus (CK) ~ Empire Under Heaven (VIP Chinese AAR) ~流風 - Chinese Name - Liu Feng ~

26-06-2007, 18:16	#2
Leviathan07 General Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Old europe Posts: 2,434	Well, Magellan only made it back to Spain in 1522, so until then you couldn't really be sure just how big the Pacific ocean was (or if there was even a landbridge to known countries further west from mexico)

28-06-2007, 17:51	#6
Hamath First Lieutenant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Ghent, Belgium Posts: 259	Even in 1600, people were looking for a way through america to China (landbridges in the north and rivers through the colonial USA, who would lead to the pacific, and, for a moment, they tought that the Mississippi wàs that river )

12-07-2007, 12:50	#10
Leviathan07 General Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Old europe Posts: 2,434	Well, yes, he never made it back, but one of his ships did, and they confirmed that the Pacific really was a large and mostly empty body of sea.