Governmental Collapse. GOOD THING?

Soviet_j · 02-03-2002, 13:24

Caution may be considered a cheat and/or spoiler to the game and If you are going to read it, please read through it all:

Well folks as near as i can tell collapsing your own government is not such a bad thing... Yay Lenin!

Here i was playing a wicked awesome Grand Campaign game whereby all of the USSR holdings were mine and then some (tibet, most of west china and flourishing colonies in the new world more specifically newfoundland and a good portion of quebec. Thats right in my world a french quebec is a pipe dream.. you all be speakin russian now! i even obtained a grip on africa, although it was very tenuous) along comes 177? (i cant remember when)a good year for the empire.. But one thing niggles constantly on my mind, geez things have been going too well.. Maybe i shouldnt have played it safe all those times i chose the + to stability maybe i shoulda chose a few of the minus events.. anyways.. I had a crazy look in my eye that terrified courtiers, nobles, peasants and soldiers alike.. Even the Czarina was trepidacious about assigning me missions, afraid to rock the boat. i concerned myself with getting more holdings off of the muslims, preying on their tech weakness at best they had 6 I had gotten russia to 16.

But you see i saw this as boring and unsportsman-like.. i wanted to shake things up major.. but i did not want to have to deal with catholics at all (i had orthadox cranked to full along with Muslim full.. with Catholic set to shit, i had only four states, protestant set to as high as i could get it about 60% i had finland and northern sweden and reformed set zero i had no states of them.. I had shiite states, konfucian states and Buddist states but the setting never allowed me to toy with them and they really werent any trouble..) who needs the headache of beating the catholic outta the catholics?

So anyways, along comes a couple of events i barely remember them exactly but the first was something that added to my revolt risk for a couple of years something like +5, prettty harsh but nothing my bored soldiers couldnt handle.. then along came an event that involved something major in history.. something about an uprising etc and how the Czarina at the time had to do an aboutface about freedoms towards the serfs and you are given a choice to loosen the reigns a bit or tighten them.. i tightened them why would i choose the bad choice? (i had stab 0) It would bring my stab to -3 but i did want to have free subjects (my new project was modernizing russia so if history were to continue beyond the endgame There would still be a Czar in Russia and no Soviet union. Quite the mission)..

So the wuss that i was i chose the safe option and gained a stab taking me to stab +1.. But this bothered me.. How is this a challenge? How did i better the lot of loyal russians everywhere?

But thats when another BIG event in history came along one that could give me a stab increase of plus 1 (taking me to +2) or could decrease my stab by -4 (taking my stab to -3) i hemmed and hawwwed.. i even pressed the button to decrease stab.. but then quickly (while still holding thebutton mind you)i rolled off of it.. (thats how much i dreaded the descision).. in the end like a bandade that had to come off i winced, closed my eyes and clicked (really this IS how i did it).. BANG!!

as popups exploded on my screen.. (holy shit they were unstoppable, hundreds in just the first few days of the change) Another thought came to me.. "Hmm hey! since i am at -3 i cant go any lower.. so what the hell lets give the people more freedom.. so i went to the govnmt screen and click the button to bring the slider one step even closer to free subjects...

Holy SHIT! Boy was I wrong!...(keep in mind the game was paused as i did this so it wasnt a result of a month rollover it was because i lowered the stab when it was alreayd too low) My stab stayed the same.. But heres where it gets hairy!!! even more popups occured as places that hadnt revolted now decided to (apparently the serfs could taste my fear) Including of all places MOSCOW.. the capital of russia (thats right Fuck Peter the great in the ear he was stupid to move the capital closer to our enemies..i started the game as Muscovy and damnit I was gonna end with moscow running the show)

Boy did the shit hit the fan.. I was overwelmed by the popups.. I reached a point whereby i just ignored them (i play at 1280x1024) I had lots of room on the screen and they just gathered in one area which was fine by me..

One year went by and I knew it was over.. There was no way i could fix the damage i had done.. The revolt risk was 15 in the freaking "safe" areas 20+ in others.. It was insane and damit i loved (call me crazy or grozny)every minute finally something worthy of my talents and my soldiers skills.. but i knew i couldnt keep it all together i focused on major areas and decided to CREATE VASSALS..

i bet NOONE has ever created vassals .. Well have i got a surprise for you! You get Victory points for doing it.. upwards of 10 each country.. i freed all the trouble states i couldnt keep and brought my score to 5000+.. I freed finland, Uzbek Khanate, tibet, The Teutonic Order (whom i was glad to be rid of..) and two other khanates.. I then proceeded to make alliances with them. i didnt want to have to wait to buy em back later.. i knew when the revolution was over i wanted them back with out fighting..i freed almost everyone i had the option to free with the exception of courland.. NO One and I mean NO one was getting Kurland Except me!

So get this thats when i notice they all had +200 relationships with me .. they loved the autonomy i had given them..So they jumped at the alliance i dangled in front of them.. so with that done i commenced purging my country of rebels.. But i knew it was impossible ( ikept playing though cause i am a psycho.. now i also know why simcity, a game i always found boring and unplayable, always had destroy city events options. It is because you have built the perfect country EU2/ city Simcity that you wanna do some damage and see if your perfect garden of eden can handle anything..Note to all the people i had insulted for playing simcity : I understand you now and hereby apologize)

I left my capital held by rebels because i thought to myself (theres no way the game would allow your capital to revolt and leave the country.. Would it?) i trusted my instincts and let the rebels hold onto it...

Well Folks Thanks for reading so far heres the Kinder Surprise:

My Government Collapsed...

and... Welll.... i looked .. and I loooked... I saw my score lost about a hundred points (i had gained as much when i had created vassals) so i wasnt hurt at all... i noticed my my stability went from -3 to +3.. Ummm.. Ouch too bad about my stability going up.. <he says extremely sarcastically>

I also noticed my Czarinas stats Now sucked they went from 5 green pips across the board to about 3 pips across the board..

BUt.. ummm... errr... Nothing else bad at all... I was so amazed that here i am typing furiously away to spread the good news..

Collapse your government if you are not going to be at war and voila good stuff happens I now have free peasants.. i have a stab of +3 which i never would have gotten .. at full power it estimated my next stab increase would be in 2133

..

But one thing bothers me.. if i was really alive then would my freethinking policies catapult me to power or would i have been the second person on the chopping block after the czarina herself? as near as i can figure I had started a grassroots movement of freethinking and innovation that scared the russian nobility who gauged their power by how many "souls" they owned.. they revolted and tried to seize the capital.. they were almost successful but the peasants themselves saved the czarina and i and Voila Much rejoicing in the nation both for me and the Czarina..

On a side note when my government collapsed the rebel held cities became mine again and almost all the rebel armies disappeared. there is now only one rebel force left and its siegeing novogorod.. but i think this is more of a case of ambitious noble who hasnt checked his email

Ummm.. DUDE! The revolution is OVER You lose! Give it up!
Hes got maybe 20k of troops and i have 200k. Idiot..

Anywho i hope this has been as enlightening for you as it has been for me.. Thanks for bearing through my aliteration of the events.. but i deserve it

So collapse your government! I was sure it would end my game.. BOY! was i wrong! (by the way for all the events i mentioned there were indeed other perks and incentives other than the stability modifications)

The camel · 02-03-2002, 15:06

Sopunds like you had the infamous "CIVIL WAR" -random event.

Collapse of goverment is something you sometimes get lucky with, don`t count on it happening...i have screwed up more than one empire trying to get rid of rebels by collapse, but just ended up loosing all my conquests

Sol Invictus · 02-03-2002, 17:33

Collapse sounds like a desperate measure that I would prefer to avoid. All those bad popup messages would give me a nervous breakdown.

DarthMaur · 02-03-2002, 17:54

Heh, nice AAR... what about Kurland? Did it declare independence?

CharlestheGreat · 02-03-2002, 18:08

That's one way to get rid of rebels. The other way is to keep a 100k man army with Invincible Morale in your capital city and your stability at +3.

Soviet_j · 02-03-2002, 23:27

No no I will never accept Kurland as free as long as i breathe! they are more Russian then BaseBall and Appple Pie! <its funny really it is, what with the colonies i have in the new world>

Oh and Yea like i said i coulda played safe and wussy but i didnt.. why cause i wanted to change governmental stats drastically and all at once and cost per change i made off like a bandit.. -5 to serfdom made a -6 by me also clicking the actual slider and doing it the hard way while i was at stab -3. And no capital can hold 100k of troops At least not that i had seen I had gotten moscow to 75. but it was the rebels elsewhere where the problem really lies anyways.. i found small taskforces of 5k did the job well i had a 4k army beat a 28k rebel force.. That guy got a statue and parades lemme tell you!

i went from total slavery to almost completely free serfs in one fell swoop and all i lost was some shit states that i still get half trade from.. all and all Collapsing the governemnt at the right time saves you time and money. getting the stab from -3 to +3 in one day is sweet.

Soviet_j · 02-03-2002, 23:33

Oh shoot i forgot to address the camels comment on it being the civil war event .. it wasnt .. And to collapse your government you have to have rebels hold your capital for about a year and it will happen. a bunch of short controlled governmental collapses have proven this...

So avenge your fathers, brothers and Rise for freedom!

HisMajestyBOB · 02-03-2002, 23:39

you like constant revolts, etc? try the timurids. 55 months of +8 revolt risk, everyone hates you, mega BB, so when your gov't is about to collapse everyone declares war on you to turbo annex you. Great fun!

HisMajestyBOB · 02-03-2002, 23:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Soviet_j
And to collapse your government you have to have rebels hold your capital for about a year and it will happen. a bunch of short controlled governmental collapses have proven this...

So avenge your fathers, brothers and Rise for freedom!

your govt can collapse if they hold enough provices, even if they dont own your capital. trust me, i know

Lord Joseph · 02-03-2002, 23:46

speaking from experience are we? I came pretty close when my war against the Ottomans lasted 16 years

Peter Ebbesen · 03-03-2002, 01:09

Quote:

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
you like constant revolts, etc? try the timurids. 55 months of +8 revolt risk, everyone hates you, mega BB, so when your gov't is about to collapse everyone declares war on you to turbo annex you. Great fun!

Right, it is great fun to play the Timurids. And that would be 588 months (49 years) assuming you chose the Attack all Traitors option.

The Disintegration of the Timurid Empire event is the event to teach you that revolt risks are cumulative and last as long as the longest one.

Agrippa · 31-03-2002, 07:38

Boo to socialism. Yay to Monarchy!

********"your govt can collapse if they hold enough provices, even if they dont own your capital"******

Did it happen....hmmm i never seen it happen...

Jinnai · 31-03-2002, 11:53

Quote:

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB

your govt can collapse if they hold enough provices, even if they dont own your capital. trust me, i know

I think 1//2 your total provinces must be controlled by some foreign entity (ie another nation, natives, rebels, etc.), plus your capital must be controlled by rebels.

Jacob Oppenheim · 31-03-2002, 16:36

he got the pugatchev revolt event, it always reeks havoc in russia

Danila · 03-04-2002, 02:28

RUSSIA RULES!!!!!!!

JohnMK · 03-04-2002, 02:47

Quote:

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
you like constant revolts, etc? try the timurids. 55 months of +8 revolt risk, everyone hates you, mega BB, so when your gov't is about to collapse everyone declares war on you to turbo annex you. Great fun!

Errr uhhh it's 588 months, not 55 months.

Big difference! One is nearly 50 years, the other is barely 5.

Becephalus · 03-04-2002, 14:51

what is the big deal with the timurids, everyone talks like they are a challange, the golden horde is a lot harder as your economy is poorer your allies fewer and enemies stronger, its also much harder to increase stab, with the timurids i actually gained 7 provinces by 1500 on vh/f by diplo annexing caliphate and qara and taking oman's trading posts, if you keep you stab at plus 2 or 3 almost no revolts occur, and afterwards is the age of barabur or however you spell his name

DarthMaur · 03-04-2002, 15:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Becephalus
what is the big deal with the timurids, everyone talks like they are a challange, the golden horde is a lot harder as your economy is poorer your allies fewer and enemies stronger, its also much harder to increase stab, with the timurids i actually gained 7 provinces by 1500 on vh/f by diplo annexing caliphate and qara and taking oman's trading posts, if you keep you stab at plus 2 or 3 almost no revolts occur, and afterwards is the age of barabur or however you spell his name

Almost no revolts? With +8 revolt risk during 49 years?

Ah, well, sure Golden Horde is harder. Orleans is even more harder, so what?

Timurid Empire, well, Timur, Empire, The Tiger, stuff

emperor dennis · 03-04-2002, 17:45

If you make a few really good peace offers (below max.) the governement collapses after a while too, due to revolts everywhere.
Then it's a peace of cake of finally taking 'em over

Petrus · 03-04-2002, 20:04

Yes, you must not be at war or have an enemy occupy any of your provinces when this happens or you will loose them all.

02-03-2002, 13:24	#1
Soviet_j Recruit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Scarborough,Ontario, Canada Posts: 7	Governmental Collapse. GOOD THING? Caution may be considered a cheat and/or spoiler to the game and If you are going to read it, please read through it all: Well folks as near as i can tell collapsing your own government is not such a bad thing... Yay Lenin! Here i was playing a wicked awesome Grand Campaign game whereby all of the USSR holdings were mine and then some (tibet, most of west china and flourishing colonies in the new world more specifically newfoundland and a good portion of quebec. Thats right in my world a french quebec is a pipe dream.. you all be speakin russian now! i even obtained a grip on africa, although it was very tenuous) along comes 177? (i cant remember when)a good year for the empire.. But one thing niggles constantly on my mind, geez things have been going too well.. Maybe i shouldnt have played it safe all those times i chose the + to stability maybe i shoulda chose a few of the minus events.. anyways.. I had a crazy look in my eye that terrified courtiers, nobles, peasants and soldiers alike.. Even the Czarina was trepidacious about assigning me missions, afraid to rock the boat. i concerned myself with getting more holdings off of the muslims, preying on their tech weakness at best they had 6 I had gotten russia to 16. But you see i saw this as boring and unsportsman-like.. i wanted to shake things up major.. but i did not want to have to deal with catholics at all (i had orthadox cranked to full along with Muslim full.. with Catholic set to shit, i had only four states, protestant set to as high as i could get it about 60% i had finland and northern sweden and reformed set zero i had no states of them.. I had shiite states, konfucian states and Buddist states but the setting never allowed me to toy with them and they really werent any trouble..) who needs the headache of beating the catholic outta the catholics? So anyways, along comes a couple of events i barely remember them exactly but the first was something that added to my revolt risk for a couple of years something like +5, prettty harsh but nothing my bored soldiers couldnt handle.. then along came an event that involved something major in history.. something about an uprising etc and how the Czarina at the time had to do an aboutface about freedoms towards the serfs and you are given a choice to loosen the reigns a bit or tighten them.. i tightened them why would i choose the bad choice? (i had stab 0) It would bring my stab to -3 but i did want to have free subjects (my new project was modernizing russia so if history were to continue beyond the endgame There would still be a Czar in Russia and no Soviet union. Quite the mission).. So the wuss that i was i chose the safe option and gained a stab taking me to stab +1.. But this bothered me.. How is this a challenge? How did i better the lot of loyal russians everywhere? But thats when another BIG event in history came along one that could give me a stab increase of plus 1 (taking me to +2) or could decrease my stab by -4 (taking my stab to -3) i hemmed and hawwwed.. i even pressed the button to decrease stab.. but then quickly (while still holding thebutton mind you)i rolled off of it.. (thats how much i dreaded the descision).. in the end like a bandade that had to come off i winced, closed my eyes and clicked (really this IS how i did it).. BANG!! as popups exploded on my screen.. (holy shit they were unstoppable, hundreds in just the first few days of the change) Another thought came to me.. "Hmm hey! since i am at -3 i cant go any lower.. so what the hell lets give the people more freedom.. so i went to the govnmt screen and click the button to bring the slider one step even closer to free subjects... Holy SHIT! Boy was I wrong!...(keep in mind the game was paused as i did this so it wasnt a result of a month rollover it was because i lowered the stab when it was alreayd too low) My stab stayed the same.. But heres where it gets hairy!!! even more popups occured as places that hadnt revolted now decided to (apparently the serfs could taste my fear) Including of all places MOSCOW.. the capital of russia (thats right Fuck Peter the great in the ear he was stupid to move the capital closer to our enemies..i started the game as Muscovy and damnit I was gonna end with moscow running the show) Boy did the shit hit the fan.. I was overwelmed by the popups.. I reached a point whereby i just ignored them (i play at 1280x1024) I had lots of room on the screen and they just gathered in one area which was fine by me.. One year went by and I knew it was over.. There was no way i could fix the damage i had done.. The revolt risk was 15 in the freaking "safe" areas 20+ in others.. It was insane and damit i loved (call me crazy or grozny)every minute finally something worthy of my talents and my soldiers skills.. but i knew i couldnt keep it all together i focused on major areas and decided to CREATE VASSALS.. i bet NOONE has ever created vassals .. Well have i got a surprise for you! You get Victory points for doing it.. upwards of 10 each country.. i freed all the trouble states i couldnt keep and brought my score to 5000+.. I freed finland, Uzbek Khanate, tibet, The Teutonic Order (whom i was glad to be rid of..) and two other khanates.. I then proceeded to make alliances with them. i didnt want to have to wait to buy em back later.. i knew when the revolution was over i wanted them back with out fighting..i freed almost everyone i had the option to free with the exception of courland.. NO One and I mean NO one was getting Kurland Except me! So get this thats when i notice they all had +200 relationships with me .. they loved the autonomy i had given them..So they jumped at the alliance i dangled in front of them.. so with that done i commenced purging my country of rebels.. But i knew it was impossible ( ikept playing though cause i am a psycho.. now i also know why simcity, a game i always found boring and unplayable, always had destroy city events options. It is because you have built the perfect country EU2/ city Simcity that you wanna do some damage and see if your perfect garden of eden can handle anything..Note to all the people i had insulted for playing simcity : I understand you now and hereby apologize) I left my capital held by rebels because i thought to myself (theres no way the game would allow your capital to revolt and leave the country.. Would it?) i trusted my instincts and let the rebels hold onto it... Well Folks Thanks for reading so far heres the Kinder Surprise: My Government Collapsed... and... Welll.... i looked .. and I loooked... I saw my score lost about a hundred points (i had gained as much when i had created vassals) so i wasnt hurt at all... i noticed my my stability went from -3 to +3.. Ummm.. Ouch too bad about my stability going up.. <he says extremely sarcastically> I also noticed my Czarinas stats Now sucked they went from 5 green pips across the board to about 3 pips across the board.. BUt.. ummm... errr... Nothing else bad at all... I was so amazed that here i am typing furiously away to spread the good news.. Collapse your government if you are not going to be at war and voila good stuff happens I now have free peasants.. i have a stab of +3 which i never would have gotten .. at full power it estimated my next stab increase would be in 2133 .. But one thing bothers me.. if i was really alive then would my freethinking policies catapult me to power or would i have been the second person on the chopping block after the czarina herself? as near as i can figure I had started a grassroots movement of freethinking and innovation that scared the russian nobility who gauged their power by how many "souls" they owned.. they revolted and tried to seize the capital.. they were almost successful but the peasants themselves saved the czarina and i and Voila Much rejoicing in the nation both for me and the Czarina.. On a side note when my government collapsed the rebel held cities became mine again and almost all the rebel armies disappeared. there is now only one rebel force left and its siegeing novogorod.. but i think this is more of a case of ambitious noble who hasnt checked his email Ummm.. DUDE! The revolution is OVER You lose! Give it up! Hes got maybe 20k of troops and i have 200k. Idiot.. Anywho i hope this has been as enlightening for you as it has been for me.. Thanks for bearing through my aliteration of the events.. but i deserve it So collapse your government! I was sure it would end my game.. BOY! was i wrong! (by the way for all the events i mentioned there were indeed other perks and incentives other than the stability modifications)

02-03-2002, 17:54	#4
DarthMaur Grandpa Maur Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 7,818	Heh, nice AAR... what about Kurland? Did it declare independence? __________________ Polyamory? And now also the (shorter, but expanding lately!) Polish version! Androgynous atheist bisexual feminist liberal libertine polyamorous transhumanist switch.

02-03-2002, 18:08	#5
CharlestheGreat Second Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 107	That's one way to get rid of rebels. The other way is to keep a 100k man army with Invincible Morale in your capital city and your stability at +3. __________________ My people drink beer. Many battles have been fought and won by soldiers nourished on beer. -Frederick the Great

02-03-2002, 23:39	#8
HisMajestyBOB Eukaryote Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: 대한민국, 인천 (Incheon, Republic of Korea) Posts: 3,161	you like constant revolts, etc? try the timurids. 55 months of +8 revolt risk, everyone hates you, mega BB, so when your gov't is about to collapse everyone declares war on you to turbo annex you. Great fun! __________________ "It is as if China went to the prom with one partner, Russia, went home with another, the United States, and then married the latter while wooing its jilted original date as a mistress." - Stephen Kotkin, The Unbalanced Triangle Check out Arsenal of Democracy, an upcoming game using the Hearts of Iron 2 engine! You have lost The Game. Sorry. Number of victims: 16?

02-03-2002, 23:46	#10
Lord Joseph Historian in Training Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The City of Brotherly Love Posts: 3,895	speaking from experience are we? I came pretty close when my war against the Ottomans lasted 16 years __________________ Long time, no post.

02-03-2002, 15:06	#2
The camel Wants a CK AAR Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wants a CK AAR Posts: 1,175	Sopunds like you had the infamous "CIVIL WAR" -random event. Collapse of goverment is something you sometimes get lucky with, don`t count on it happening...i have screwed up more than one empire trying to get rid of rebels by collapse, but just ended up loosing all my conquests

02-03-2002, 17:33	#3
Sol Invictus Colonel Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kentucky/USA Posts: 819	Collapse sounds like a desperate measure that I would prefer to avoid. All those bad popup messages would give me a nervous breakdown.

02-03-2002, 23:27	#6
Soviet_j Recruit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Scarborough,Ontario, Canada Posts: 7	No no I will never accept Kurland as free as long as i breathe! they are more Russian then BaseBall and Appple Pie! <its funny really it is, what with the colonies i have in the new world> Oh and Yea like i said i coulda played safe and wussy but i didnt.. why cause i wanted to change governmental stats drastically and all at once and cost per change i made off like a bandit.. -5 to serfdom made a -6 by me also clicking the actual slider and doing it the hard way while i was at stab -3. And no capital can hold 100k of troops At least not that i had seen I had gotten moscow to 75. but it was the rebels elsewhere where the problem really lies anyways.. i found small taskforces of 5k did the job well i had a 4k army beat a 28k rebel force.. That guy got a statue and parades lemme tell you! i went from total slavery to almost completely free serfs in one fell swoop and all i lost was some shit states that i still get half trade from.. all and all Collapsing the governemnt at the right time saves you time and money. getting the stab from -3 to +3 in one day is sweet.

02-03-2002, 23:33	#7
Soviet_j Recruit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Scarborough,Ontario, Canada Posts: 7	Oh shoot i forgot to address the camels comment on it being the civil war event .. it wasnt .. And to collapse your government you have to have rebels hold your capital for about a year and it will happen. a bunch of short controlled governmental collapses have proven this... So avenge your fathers, brothers and Rise for freedom!

31-03-2002, 07:38	#12
Agrippa Sergeant Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Chisinau, Moldova Posts: 65	Boo to socialism. Yay to Monarchy! ******"your govt can collapse if they hold enough provices, even if they dont own your capital"**** Did it happen....hmmm i never seen it happen... __________________ Code: \| \| + \ \\.G_.*=. `( '/.\\| .>' (_--. _=/d ,^\ ~~ \)-' ' / \| ' '

31-03-2002, 16:36	#14
Jacob Oppenheim Qoheleth Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Orim Posts: 450	he got the pugatchev revolt event, it always reeks havoc in russia __________________ Optima dies....Prima Fugit

03-04-2002, 02:28	#15
Danila Banned(UD) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 65	RUSSIA RULES!!!!!!!

03-04-2002, 14:51	#17
Becephalus Paul Bäumer's gravedigger Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 1,850	timurids??? what is the big deal with the timurids, everyone talks like they are a challange, the golden horde is a lot harder as your economy is poorer your allies fewer and enemies stronger, its also much harder to increase stab, with the timurids i actually gained 7 provinces by 1500 on vh/f by diplo annexing caliphate and qara and taking oman's trading posts, if you keep you stab at plus 2 or 3 almost no revolts occur, and afterwards is the age of barabur or however you spell his name

03-04-2002, 17:45	#19
emperor dennis your favourite future Dictator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: near St. Niklaas (Belgium) Posts: 1,695	If you make a few really good peace offers (below max.) the governement collapses after a while too, due to revolts everywhere. Then it's a peace of cake of finally taking 'em over __________________ Alfonso II d'Este; Duke of Ferrara, Modena and Reggio; Marquis of Este; Prince op Carpi; Rightful Lord of Bologna and Romagna (1558 RPG) xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx

03-04-2002, 20:04	#20
Petrus Field Marshal Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Hail Slovakia! Posts: 2,621	Yes, you must not be at war or have an enemy occupy any of your provinces when this happens or you will loose them all. __________________ "That's like hypnotizing chickens.." --Iggy Pop