Grand Medieval Map Quest

[CrackdToothGrin]

Inspired by Elvain and his incredibly detailed map of Eurasia for his Regions of Medieval Europe map, I have decided to embark on a similar quest. Right now, I have only completed the map for the British Isles, but I am going to expand it to cover the area represented by the game Crusader Kings. I intend to cover roughly the same time period as well.

The images shown on this thread are almagamated visuals of the various layers I am utilizing in Photoshop. My overall goal is to finish this and host the map as a PSD file, complete with named layers, as well as finished versions of the map, with various layers shown, in JPEG, all zipped together. The file is very large, some 8000 x 6000 pixels overall.

In essence, I want to make the map with the following scheme:

-An underlayer showing "counties"
-A layer showing colored "provincial" divisions
-Layers for provincial and county names, in their native languages

This would allow the user to pick and choose which layer they want all inside one file, using Photoshop or GIMP with a Photoshop plugin. The JPEGS that will go together with this will be compiled in one mass file, as well as several smaller files geared to show a specific area. This is done to aid those without Photoshop.

Here's the progress thus far:

Brittania with County Outlines (Unnamed):


Brittania with County Outlines (Named):




I know that you can't see the fine detail, but I can send anyone the maps if they need them. All you have to do is pm me.

I would appreciate any help that any of you have, especially when it comes to regions I am not familiar with, like the Balkans and Poland, especially Russia. I will do my best to use period names and the appropriate languages depending on which culture populated the region at the time.

This is not intended for a mod, but rather as a source of reference for modders and historians alike, as no site I have visited has approached this level of detail, for this period, ever. If anyone knows of such a site, then let me know so I can reference it in my own work.

My approach to creation using layers allows me to make this inherently modifiable, and easily so.

Thank you in advance for any help and patronage you may show. I don't know how long this will take, but I have over fourteen hours a day to spend on this and lots of historical atlases. I use no stylus, no tablet, and must do this all with a mouse. If anyone wants to help, I would appreciate it if you could post maps, name changes, translations, etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Once again, thank you in advance.

[Divi]

Are comments on the organization of the regions accepted? What are the regions supposed to represent? And since you reference Crusader Kings, I guess you'd like a representation roughly in the 11th century (VE ).

[elvain]

I believe we could help each other a lot.

My project thuogh it isn't abandoned issomewhere down on my to-do-list recently... but we could share our materials, thuogh in fact I miss materials for the same regions you do..

nice graphics. I never had that much time to work on it enough

[CrackdToothGrin]

Any comments are accepted...

The provincial borders just visually aid in the grouping once the map gets larger, they are rough representations of approximate areas. The counties themselves are significantly more accurate, and can be changed at will. Since I use layers dedicated to each facet of the project, borders are easily adjustable. The examples shown are just JPEGS of the project, but those layers are all, in fact, in a single file.

Once again, any help would be appreciated. I have info for Germany, France, Spain, and Italy without fail, but East Europe and the Balkans are going to be difficult, especially since I don't know anything about their languages.

But just to reiterate, the provinces are rough, and if there's a good reason to change them I will. The counties are taken from a series of maps from the 11th to early 15th century and are pretty accurate. The provinces are just to help me visually get a grip on approximate regions. For instance, when I get to Poland, and I make Silesian territories, they will all be grouped together roughly.

The only reason for the grouping is for those who want to make a map like those in Medieval Total War, where the regions are broad, and often large in size. The county detail is for those who make EU2/3 style maps, picking and choosing which territories they want to show. I plan to have over 3,000 named counties by the end of the project.

[RGB]

I could help with Russia, a little bit. At least I can tell you which towns were important and which were smaller, and so on.

But over a longer period, not like, immediately.

[Gordy]

The counties that you have used are the traditional ones which are still more popular than the ones created in 1974. The regions you have used are well named and reasonable though I don't think I'd have unified Yorkshire and Lancashire.

However the traditional counties weren't in use at the time. Some really bizarre ones like 'Hullshire" and 'Blackburnshire' existed.

[CrackdToothGrin]

The counties, especially in southern England, were taken from a map from 1399, so if you have any earlier maps it be useful. I know some of the counties listed are the same today, but everything on my map is from as far back as 1399. If there are more antiquated names for them, I'd also like to know that.

As for unifying Lancashire and Yorkshire, I struggled with that for a little while, but decided to do so. In retrospect I think I should've separated them, and I probably will now that I think of it. I want this map to be useful for two main reasons, like I said before:

A- To have an extremely detailed set of "counties" or "tuaths" or "kraj" for the nitpickers,

B- To have reasonable regions or "provinces" for those who aim to make a similar map.

I am actually making my own tabletop or PBEM game like Lords of the Earth that will utilize the map, since I think every game I have played just isn't detailed enough. If I could, I'd make a game that had every religion at the time that had more than a few thousand adherents, etc...

But, back to Yorkshire/Lancashire, I will separate them now that I think about it... For those who want to make a broad map, it allows them to use it for a "Danelaw" scenario, allowing the player to hold the Cumbria/Lancashire area against the Danish invaders.

And to RGB, all help on Russia would be great. I know an extensive amount about the history, and the geography, but are the regional names the same as the city? For instance, is Pksov the city the same as Pksov the region? I have all of the information I pretty much need for the Ukraine area, but the Novgorod maps I have, while extensive, are all in Cyrillic, which I can't read without tedious amounts of by-hand translation. I have some fabulous maps of the region, but I need to know which cities were the largest, so they can be exclusive, like what I have done with London, by separating it from Middlesex.

I know Kiev, Pksov, Moskva, etc. in some cases had over 50,000 people, when London had only 12,000, and that there were over 300 urban centers in Kievan Rus territory prior to the Mongol invasion, but I need to know which handful were large enough to warrant distinct separation.

And for Elvain, I know in your thread you mentioned that Bohemia itself had no large separations, but rather a patchwork of small divisions, too small to be reasonably mapped, but could it be broken up into topographical or vegetative regions? I know that the Bohemian Forest region seems to be separated occasionally in many of the maps, and is Sudetenland a more recent division? Some period maps I have show it present in the 13th century so I just wanted to know.

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by CrackdToothGrin

The counties, especially in southern England, were taken from a map from 1399, so if you have any earlier maps it be useful. I know some of the counties listed are the same today, but everything on my map is from as far back as 1399. If there are more antiquated names for them, I'd also like to know that.

The wikipedia article is the best that I can suggest but English counties are a complicated business. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_counties)

The counties today are quite different from the traditional ones, different names different boundaries. Absolutely ignore the modern ones, the traditional ones are the ones that people tend to identify with.

As for archaic names Shropshire is often called 'Salop' and Devon 'Devonshire'.

The Furness peninsula was called 'Detached Lancashire' or 'Lancashire over Sands'. Essex was sometimes considered part of East Anglia. But generally I think your borders are very good.

As for unifying Lancashire and Yorkshire, I struggled with that for a little while, but decided to do so. In retrospect I think I should've separated them, and I probably will now that I think of it. I want this map to be useful for two main reasons, like I said before:

They are also very populous areas (in modern times). I don't know about back then but now Yorkshire has about 5 million people and Lancashire about 7 million (traditional boundaries) which is far more than East Mercia, West Mercia, East Anglia, Wessex, Cornwall, Northumberland etc.

Lancaster and York (in particular) are historically very important places.

[CrackdToothGrin]

That article is where I made most of the counties from, in addition to the 1399 map (can't remember from where), the Euratlas Periodical Atlas of World History, and the Atlas of World History, which I actually own. Right now I'm working on France, which is proving to be quite the monumental task...

Scotland in particular was also hard, since so many of the counties were fragmented. For instance, I completely left out Cromarty because it was in about twelve constituent parts.

But, the Furness peninsula I just named Furness, but should it be Lancaster upon Sands? I don't think I'd like "Detached Lancashire"...

[RGB]

Originally Posted by CrackdToothGrin

And to RGB, all help on Russia would be great. I know an extensive amount about the history, and the geography, but are the regional names the same as the city? For instance, is Pksov the city the same as Pksov the region? I have all of the information I pretty much need for the Ukraine area, but the Novgorod maps I have, while extensive, are all in Cyrillic, which I can't read without tedious amounts of by-hand translation. I have some fabulous maps of the region, but I need to know which cities were the largest, so they can be exclusive, like what I have done with London, by separating it from Middlesex.

I know Kiev, Pksov, Moskva, etc. in some cases had over 50,000 people, when London had only 12,000, and that there were over 300 urban centers in Kievan Rus territory prior to the Mongol invasion, but I need to know which handful were large enough to warrant distinct separation.

We'll do it area by area. Novgorod-Pskov, Rostov-Vladimir, Severschina (It had so many medium sized towns! But that one people always forget! In CK it's just Novgorod-Severski, for example), Kiev, Volhyn, Polotsk-Smolensk.

The area around Kiev and Severia should be a lot more populous than the towns around Rostov, and if you're planning an 11th century setup many later centres (Moskva, Tver) are still tiny outposts.

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EDIT: Drop by my AAR! Long time no see. Also, if you want your maps translated send them my way.

[Aetius]

If you are going to spend serious time on this I suggestion you set out criteria.

Basically:
1. How big does something need to be represented separately if it has a land border to another province? I am talking minimum size here, e.g. 1000 km2, 4000 km2 etc. You can work this out by taking some region of a known size and known number of areas and see what the average area ends up as.
2. How big does an island need to be to be represented? When should groups of islands be represented?
3. How big a population, roughly, for a province to be represented separately (this is an issue in northern and northeastern Europe and in the desert areas of the Maghreb and Levant)
4. What naming conventions priority order should be followed: Traditional area name in English, main town name in English during a majority of the period, (if none of them exist) name of main tribe or geographic object (river, oasis, erg or whatever)

I have spent some time on doodling on maps and thinking about these issues, so these are the questions that I needed answering before starting a particular area.

[elvain]

Originally Posted by CrackdToothGrin

And for Elvain, I know in your thread you mentioned that Bohemia itself had no large separations, but rather a patchwork of small divisions, too small to be reasonably mapped, but could it be broken up into topographical or vegetative regions? I know that the Bohemian Forest region seems to be separated occasionally in many of the maps, and is Sudetenland a more recent division? Some period maps I have show it present in the 13th century so I just wanted to know.

In Bohemia the first division to kraj (districts) is known in the very fall of middle ages (end of 15th/16th century), there are other that could be used, but the regions would be rather small.

As for the "natural divisions" I'm not big friend of it. I suppose "Sudetenland" is mostly taken of because since 13th century(but in larger nuimbers in 16th/17th century) there were Germans colonizing this sub-mountinious region so it is separated to represent German population in Bohemia. However it is the only reason that advocates creating of such region.

It is possible to make some 4-5 regions according to main cities (Litoměřice/Leitmeritz in the north, Plzeň/Pilsen in the southwest, Budějovice/Budweis in the south and Hradec Králové/Gradec in the east with Praha in the middle. Before 13th century it would be Žatec in northwest, Plzenec in southwest, Doudleby in south and Libic in the east, Prague in the centre)
but the regions have no natural borders, they fluctuate throughout time, the mountains go around Bohemia, not inside, the rivers rather create regions than they'd divide them (f.i. the Pilsen region is region around 4 rivers that meet in Plzeň)

As for Russia, I have several maps of it, PM me your email and I can send you some...

and as for the "standardisation" of provinces, Arilou, to be honest, the important thing in my Regions of Medieval Europe is wether the region had some political status betwen 1000 and 1500 it should be represented, no matter how small it is. In areas where it is ucertain every important city should be represented. Important is the area around, in general.. In desert regions the tribes are the "units"

[CrackdToothGrin]

RGB- Well, I am looking for an 11th Century setup for the most part, but I also want to show areas populated later, in the mid-15th Century, so the map can serve as an inspiration for the whole CK time frame. By reading the forums, anyone not well-versed in history can get any information they need about which towns were populated and which weren't. I would hope that they would know this anyway, ... For the most part, the map will be from the 11th to 13th Centuries, but areas developed a century or so later will also warrant distinction.

Aetius- As for your criteria, I have the same, but I will list it so everyone can understand how I make the borders.
1- Pretty much any well-defined border will be shown. I have been lucky in that Iberia, France, and England had relatively well-established borders. As for size, most will be around 2,500 square miles, or around a 50 mile width. In areas that were particularly fragmented, the borders may be smaller. In areas which were sparsely populated, they will undoubtedly be much larger.

2- For islands, most will be represented, especially if the island has a history of changing ownership. For instance, in the Hebrides/The Isles, I show: Leòdhas, Na Hearadh, Uibhist à-Tuath, Uibhist à-Deas, An t-Eilean Sgitheanach, Muile, Diùra, Ìle, and Bhòid (Sorry, those are in Scots Gaelic). In the Aegean, I will show most of the Cyclades, the Dodecanese, etc., as well as the islands in Dalmatia, and off the west coast of Greece. I will also show most of the islands in the Baltic. The Balaerics will be shown as four separate islands. Cyprus and Crete will be split into differing areas.

3- Most divisions will be traditional areas, with settlements shown based relatively. For instance, in North Africa, the settlements may be smaller than in Europe, but if the settlement was of particular importance, and was larger than average for the relative area it represented, then I might separate it from its corresponding area. For areas with little geographical information, shown territorial division might be only named and/or based off of a settlement, without making it exclusive. For instance, once I get to the Straits of Gibraltar, and I research the Tangiers area, I might make it separate while naming the surrounding territory differently, assuming such information exists. Translation will most likely be a very difficult prospect. My Arabic is rough, pretty much only introductory, and reading Islamic maps is difficult. When I reference ancient maps (Because I have several hundred maps actually drawn in the time period), any city that is actually shown will be researched to see if it warrants a separate status.

4- Naming conventions for provinces (groups of "counties") will most likely be in English, since that is not the primary focus of my work. Naming conventions for counties will be in the corresponding language of the dominant owner in the time period, which may change quite frequently. In the end, I will have a list of the names, with alternate pronunciations for some contested areas. But for the most part it will be foreign and hopefully archaic. For instance, in Brittania I have five languages used for names: English (England), Irish Gaelic (Ireland), Manx Gaelic (Isle of Man), Scottish Gaelic (Scotland up to the Orkneys), and Norse (For Orkneys/Shetlands). This is where help will be needed, as I don't know if Russian will suffice for Rus territories, or if Kievan Rus and Novgorod, etc. had differing languages.

Elvain- Perfect. But, should those areas have separate names besides the cities? I would doubt that a native of Praha would think that a 2,500 mile square chunk of territory around the city would be named solely for the city. Unless, of course, Bohemians have a sense of nationalism that makes one's location in the country irrelevant . But, back to the point, I don't agree in naming based on vegetative or purely topographical regions either, I just wanted to know if Czechs do. I'm trying to do each region relative to the dominant culture, since I am entirely unfamiliar with anything other than introductory cartography for Bohemia and its history. I know a lot of history for the world, but I need to know if the people in the region recognized territorial division. In the end, like I said, I want to have about 3,000 named "counties."

[RGB]

Originally Posted by CrackdToothGrin

RGBThis is where help will be needed, as I don't know if Russian will suffice for Rus territories, or if Kievan Rus and Novgorod, etc. had differing languages.

It depends on whether you'll run into a West Rus nationalist, of course, but generally it's accepted that old East Slavic was mutually intelligible even in Krivian land (i.e. Belarus); but there were several dialects, of course. The Novgorodian dialect was the most distinct but I doubt it'd cause much problem for a person from even as far as Halych.

As to modern languages? Names have drifted, of course, but from what I undesrtand the old language had hard consonants. Russian, with a few exceptions, seems overall the best pick but treating things case by case is not a bad idea either.

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by CrackdToothGrin

But, the Furness peninsula I just named Furness, but should it be Lancaster upon Sands? I don't think I'd like "Detached Lancashire"...

Lancashire over Sands. Lancaster is a small city, Lancashire is the county. It was divided between the main part of Lancashire and the bit North of Grange over Sands. I think Lonsdale was probably in use at the time for that area.

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by CrackdToothGrin

For instance, in Brittania I have five languages used for names: English (England), Irish Gaelic (Ireland), Manx Gaelic (Isle of Man), Scottish Gaelic (Scotland up to the Orkneys), and Norse (For Orkneys/Shetlands).

Scottish Gaelic has been restricted to the Higlands and Islands for some time. In the time period it was probably spoken in Central Scotland (replacing Pictish) but it was never much spoken in Eastern Scotland.

Scots (closely related to the Northumbrian form of Anglo-Saxon) was the language of South East Scotland, a language similar to Welsh in Strathclyde (South West Scotland, on your map Southern Galloway), North East Scotland (Caithness and Sutherland) spoke Norn (Norse) just like Orkney and Shetland.

In England, Cornish was still extant, Cumbric (similar to Welsh) in Cumbria until 11th century and a minority would speak Welsh along the border with Wales.

[CrackdToothGrin]

The questions I have are:

A: Do I find Norn for Sutherland and northwards (I have Orkneyjar and Hjaltland for the Orkneys and Shetland). If Norn isn't available, is there a more modern Norse/Norwegian translation for the area? And if one couldn't find that, is there any Norwegian person you could contact on these boards that could translate it for you? I seriously would consider getting a hold of Norwegian history professors, even using professional translation sources to send letters to them so they could give me the information. I am a very dedicated person.

B: Where could I find a Scots translation for the Scottish Gaelic names I have in the Lothian territories? I never knew that they were even different...

C: Could I still just use modern English names for counties, or do I have to translate them into Cornish? ??

D: So "Lancashire over Sands" or "Lonsdale?" (I accidentally said Lancaster over Sands, when I meant Lancashire... )

E: And, once again, Cumbric for Cumbria-area territories? I am trying very hard to use proper nomenclature, and my research states that the language died out in the 11th century.

F: Do you want me to send you the JPEG file of Brittania so you could look it over? (This is to anyone who wants to look at it.)

G: RGB, if I sent you a Russian map of Medieval French provinces, could you translate it? Or should I just buckle down and translate the Cyrillic by hand?

H: Are there any good old East Slavic websites in English? I mean, if I can find midget bestiality I think that I should be able to find something relevant.

I: Is this a fool's errand?

J: Some voivodeships in medieval eastern Poland used old East Slavic, so should I use their names, assuming I can find them?

K: Should I find Welsh translations for Strathclyde? Or should this be one of those, "give two examples if you're unsure" nomenclatural treatises?
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EDIT: I have Scots translation for Lothian and Strathclyde (Unless I need to use Welsh for Strathclyde), and I have Norn for Caithness and Sutherland.

Also, scratch question "C," unless someone has an appropriate answer.

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by CrackdToothGrin

B: Where could I find a Scots translation for the Scottish Gaelic names I have in the Lothian territories? I never knew that they were even different...

I would suggest that Wikipedia might have the original place name on their individual articles e.g. look up Berwick on Tweed (then Scotland).

C: Could I still just use modern English names for counties, or do I have to translate them into Cornish? ??

I doubt that Cornish has a word for Yorkshire but the Cornish for Cornwall is 'Kernow'.

D: So "Lancashire over Sands" or "Lonsdale?" (I accidentally said Lancaster over Sands, when I meant Lancashire... )

Yes.

E: And, once again, Cumbric for Cumbria-area territories? I am trying very hard to use proper nomenclature, and my research states that the language died out in the 11th century.

Correct. I take it you are only interested in the 14th century, in which case ignore Cumbric.

F: Do you want me to send you the JPEG file of Brittania so you could look it over? (This is to anyone who wants to look at it.)

Can do.

[RGB]

G: RGB, if I sent you a Russian map of Medieval French provinces, could you translate it? Or should I just buckle down and translate the Cyrillic by hand?

Yes I could.

H: Are there any good old East Slavic websites in English? I mean, if I can find midget bestiality I think that I should be able to find something relevant.

Will try to look - eventually.

J: Some voivodeships in medieval eastern Poland used old East Slavic, so should I use their names, assuming I can find them?

You mean things like Peremyshl, Vladimir-Volynski, Galich, Lvov? Pinsk, Turov?
Yes, they should have Rus names, except maybe the Hrody Czerwenskie in particular; like Peremyshl thing, that could be Polish.

[CrackdToothGrin]

When I look up Galich I find it to be Halych in several maps. Is that correct? Or is this a perfect example of different names from separate languages?

As for the map, RGB, you can find it here.

If that's too much work, I already have many maps from the period. But, since the map is Russian, I don't know which century it is from, and I think that it would be very helpful, since some of the borders are demonstrably different than a couple of period maps I have. I can deal with the French versions, although I will have to translate the southern portions into Occitan. However, while my speaking ability in Russian is highly elementary, I cannot read Cyrillic.

My ability to speak several languages helps me out highly, but Slavic languages are just hard for me.