Ideas for Reformed in the Alternate Reformation

[MattyG]

I am sitting here on the couch as Finn and I watch Thomas the Tank Engine (James and the Red Baloon and other Tales). Gordon is being pompous and is heading for a fall at Edward's expense. It's all good stuff. A morning coffee. Yum, yum. And then we'll get dressed and head out to playgroup. Anyway, I suddenly found inspiration for the Reformed religon in the Alternate Reformation, which we ought probably to start renamed the Reformist Schism or somesuch.

So, this is my idea. I only have a simplified version at this stage.

A generation after the Schism, the division within the Catholic Church has become unacceptable and some of the old personal divisiveness that drove it has been forgotten. The new generation of bishops is more interested in reconciliation. At least, some are, including the Pope in Rome. So, there is another Laternan Council to which all of the bishops-who-support-the-other-Pope are invited, to establish a compromise on liturgical and administrative matters, some compromise that can bring the church back together again.

The result is partly successful, in that some bishops and the countries they come from decide to support the Pope in Rome (beoming Protestant). However, this also alienates some of the more hard-nosed reformists, who were actually looking to continue the reforming agenda. They then establish an alternate Church, rather than calling themselves Catholics, and are - in this case - an actual 'protesting' church and get the Reformed tag. Meanwhile, the rump of conservatives become CRC.

So much for compromise brining people together, at least in the short term. The shit has hit the fan again.

Our Edict of Tolerance comes a generation later, when it is clear that the rift will not be mended easily and Pope Somethingorother makes an edict of, say, tolerance, accepting that the True Church will convince others to return to the fold only through its own virtue.

[Don_Quigleone]

Sounds cool! What countries will take the reformed tag? Also if the conservatives take the counter reformed tag (which they probably should) where will "normal" catholics stand?

[orimazd]

Questions of things that I have missed involving this alternate reformation, which I am posting in here because they also include stuff in here:

1. Where are the protestants based in the Schism? I understood that Bavaria and north Germany are extremely conservative, especially Bavaria because they are easily able to exploit it.

2. I am not too clear on the event chain leading up to Martin Luther being elected pope. Its nice having a life. Well, not a life, but a girl (which kinda precludes a life). But you end up missing out on more masculine activities than constant talking, like thinking about EUII and even occasionally playing it and miserably failing during attempts at coding.

3. Could this happen if Bavaria becomes Germania? I mean, even though all reform would come to a grinding halt just hanging over the edge of the cliff, would events push it over anyways next generation, kinda like this?

4. Where will France be on this kind of thing? I figure Languedoc/Occitania would be very much supportive of reform. But they would more likely be hard-nosed reformists rather than the protestants following the pope.

5. Would there be near-unavoidable war nearly depopulating a huge number of provinces, reducing city populations to four digits and european tax values by a quarter to half of their total value? That would rock. It would rock like the 30 years war (which is ridiculously avoidable in vanilla and AGCEEP, since nobody ever declares war).

I think that's all for now. My lunch is ready.

6.

[MattyG]

Originally Posted by orimazd

Questions of things that I have missed involving this alternate reformation, which I am posting in here because they also include stuff in here:

1. Where are the protestants based in the Schism? I understood that Bavaria and north Germany are extremely conservative, especially Bavaria because they are easily able to exploit it.

Everywhere else. Seriously, the only certain Protestant state is Papal States. However, the chance that no-one else will go Protestant is so small that ... it would be impressive to see it happen. All the Iberians have 50% chance, likewise Wessex, Brittany, Eire, York and so forth. Each Catholic state has to make a choice of supporting the Pope in Rome or in Germany. Germany means you stay catholic, Rome means you go Protestant. (Which, in this case, reads Reformist Catholic).

2. I am not too clear on the event chain leading up to Martin Luther being elected pope. Its nice having a life. Well, not a life, but a girl (which kinda precludes a life). But you end up missing out on more masculine activities than constant talking, like thinking about EUII and even occasionally playing it and miserably failing during attempts at coding.

Nice that you have a girl. Maybe she can play EU2 with you and you two can code together. ( command = { type = removeclothing which = girlfriend } ).

Ahem.

The event chain is complicated. There are a lot of events for the Papacy where choices establish the ascendency of conservatism, reformism or moderate. I have never fully followed it through myself, actually. mikl wrote it all. It's great stuff, actually. Much of it is the fifth laternan council, and then the various reactions to humaism.

3. Could this happen if Bavaria becomes Germania? I mean, even though all reform would come to a grinding halt just hanging over the edge of the cliff, would events push it over anyways next generation, kinda like this?

Germania is actually a function of Bavaria winning the crusade, but the crusade is intimately connected with the whole Alternative Reformation process. If Bavaria does win the crusade (whether or not it then forms Germania) the chance of the Alternate Reformation happening is very unlikely. Unless you are playing Papal States (or, rather, own province 399) and can make the right choices.

4. Where will France be on this kind of thing? I figure Languedoc/Occitania would be very much supportive of reform. But they would more likely be hard-nosed reformists rather than the protestants following the pope.

On the whole, my position is that there are a few countries which will be Catholic only (Bavaria, Teutonic Order, Brandenburg), only one which will be Protestand only (Papal States) and everyone else will have a chance for either. But most will have a 50% chance (assuming ai controlled) of going either way. Occitania will be - along with Scotland and Hansa - one of those whose action_a is Reformist and action_b is Conservative, and so they are 84% likely to support the Pope in Rome, and so go protestant.

5. Would there be near-unavoidable war nearly depopulating a huge number of provinces, reducing city populations to four digits and european tax values by a quarter to half of their total value? That would rock. It would rock like the 30 years war (which is ridiculously avoidable in vanilla and AGCEEP, since nobody ever declares war).

Sort of. The problem with enforcing conflict is that players can manipulate it. We are very very good at attacking countries that are weakened by existing conflicts. The last thing we want to do is to help players acheive WC. And I think that the key character of this conflict is actually less the nation-nation conflict but the internal conflicts. Everyone think they are following the real Pope and are the true Catholics. It's more insidious than just Protestants versus Catholics. It's more like Shiite versus Sunni. So, the events give everyone - regardless of choice - RR lasting 30 years, then it would happen again when the above Refmored/CRC thing happens, although with a ittle less intensity.

But this RR reduces taxes, and there are events for people to flee to the colonies. And there will be a lot of Rebellions. And there will certainly be more wars than BEFORE this reformation, as the religious differences increase the likelyhood of conflict.

I think that's all for now. My lunch is ready.

6.

Good point. Mine too.

[MattyG]

Originally Posted by Don_Quigleone

Sounds cool! What countries will take the reformed tag? Also if the conservatives take the counter reformed tag (which they probably should) where will "normal" catholics stand?

Well, there are the obvious candidates: Hansa, Scotland, Occitania, Kalmar. But we could decide on a few other loose canons, too. Navarra? Wutemburg? Luxemburg? Hungary even?

Normal Catholics (those who support the Pope in Rome instead of the one in Germany) will remain Protestant.

[Don_Quigleone]

I think the Italian states should have a very large chance of going protestant myself

[orimazd]

Originally Posted by MattyG

Nice that you have a girl. Maybe she can play EU2 with you and you two can code together. ( command = { type = removeclothing which = girlfriend } ).

I'll respond to the rest later, because i also got a job, but does this kind of language turn your wife on? Or does she prefer perl? Guys like girls who like perl necklaces. Okay, enough sexual connotation. Nice might be good but I think "I'm sorry about that" might be equally appropriate, considering the past few days

[MattyG]

Originally Posted by orimazd

I'll respond to the rest later, because i also got a job, but does this kind of language turn your wife on? Or does she prefer perl? Guys like girls who like perl necklaces. Okay, enough sexual connotation. Nice might be good but I think "I'm sorry about that" might be equally appropriate, considering the past few days

Meaning that the relationship has been a little rough the last couple of days?

[Don_Quigleone]

Ahh the unpredictable rumble tumble of love, I'll stick to EU2 for now, good and predictable, hang on... my 50000 stack just lost against a stack of 2000! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH...........

[MattyG]

Originally Posted by Don_Quigleone

Ahh the unpredictable rumble tumble of love, I'll stick to EU2 for now, good and predictable, hang on... my 50000 stack just lost against a stack of 2000! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH...........

My worst moment?

Playing MP. I am Byzantium and at war with GH and Sibir. Now, remember, Sibir is not a world power ... I am a full CRT ahead in the land tech. I have full offensive and Land. I have a leader of quality 5/3/5. I have about 20K total of which about 7 K were Cavalry.

The Sibir force of about 6K (and about 500 cavalry) gets defeated by me in neighbouring Georgia and retreats into Kouban to face that 20K force.

Across a river.

In winter.

With virtually zero morale.

They win.

[Don_Quigleone]

What are the odds of that! Yes, Eu2 is certainly not predictable, is it! Hmm maybe feminine society is more predictable after all...

[MattyG]

Originally Posted by Don_Quigleone

What are the odds of that! Yes, Eu2 is certainly not predictable, is it! Hmm maybe feminine society is more predictable after all...

Maybe that was the problem ... they were all amazons!

[orimazd]

Originally Posted by MattyG

Meaning that the relationship has been a little rough the last couple of days?

It means that I've been going crazy...nobody else makes me so angry so often (and the issues causing this are only because we aren't understanding what the other says apparently...though almost entirely its been me misunderstanding her). LOL, I really don't know what to think of that (which is why I have been thinking about that all day).

Anyways, back on topic. Response to the stuff this thread is about is coming next.

[orimazd]

Originally Posted by MattyG

Everywhere else. Seriously, the only certain Protestant state is Papal States. However, the chance that no-one else will go Protestant is so small that ... it would be impressive to see it happen. All the Iberians have 50% chance, likewise Wessex, Brittany, Eire, York and so forth. Each Catholic state has to make a choice of supporting the Pope in Rome or in Germany. Germany means you stay catholic, Rome means you go Protestant. (Which, in this case, reads Reformist Catholic).

Okay, that sounds good. Especially Eire going protestant.

The event chain is complicated. There are a lot of events for the Papacy where choices establish the ascendency of conservatism, reformism or moderate. I have never fully followed it through myself, actually. mikl wrote it all. It's great stuff, actually. Much of it is the fifth laternan council, and then the various reactions to humaism.

So I am presuming the path being written about so much is going to be the most likely one?




Germania is actually a function of Bavaria winning the crusade, but the crusade is intimately connected with the whole Alternative Reformation process. If Bavaria does win the crusade (whether or not it then forms Germania) the chance of the Alternate Reformation happening is very unlikely. Unless you are playing Papal States (or, rather, own province 399) and can make the right choices.



On the whole, my position is that there are a few countries which will be Catholic only (Bavaria, Teutonic Order, Brandenburg), only one which will be Protestand only (Papal States) and everyone else will have a chance for either. But most will have a 50% chance (assuming ai controlled) of going either way. Occitania will be - along with Scotland and Hansa - one of those whose action_a is Reformist and action_b is Conservative, and so they are 84% likely to support the Pope in Rome, and so go protestant.

Sort of. The problem with enforcing conflict is that players can manipulate it. We are very very good at attacking countries that are weakened by existing conflicts. The last thing we want to do is to help players acheive WC. And I think that the key character of this conflict is actually less the nation-nation conflict but the internal conflicts. Everyone think they are following the real Pope and are the true Catholics. It's more insidious than just Protestants versus Catholics. It's more like Shiite versus Sunni. So, the events give everyone - regardless of choice - RR lasting 30 years, then it would happen again when the above Refmored/CRC thing happens, although with a ittle less intensity.

How high of a revolt risk? I mean, if all nations get a revolt risk of like +50 for ten years and declining from there, it would be really fun to watch the ai and human nations disintegrate (I have no idea how to plan ahead for such a situation, though...risk bankrupcy a dozen times to be able to hold whatever your empire is together?). Because that's hard to avoid even as a human player--with a revolt risk so high you are not going to be able to build any considerable army after the reformation begins for another fifteen or twenty years. However, you won't be at risk from the computer because they will have the same problems at the same time for the whole time (Unless the computer is muslim...but their West-Christian provinces I guess are going to get the same revolt risk you see in Europe). Though I presume you don't mean one that high. Which is unfortunate in my perspective, but that's okay because I feel like a little kid with a magnifying glass and an ant hill.

But this RR reduces taxes, and there are events for people to flee to the colonies. And there will be a lot of Rebellions. And there will certainly be more wars than BEFORE this reformation, as the religious differences increase the likelyhood of conflict.

That's true, yes.

[mikl]

I have sent MattyG the revised Epochal_German file, containing the events which flick states to Reformed Church. As with the Protestant Church events, once they choose to demand reformed of the people n their capital, they then enforce the religion in the provinces as per this extract:


################################################## ################
# Altmark
################################################## ################
event = {
id = 880301
trigger = {
religion = protestant
event = 101
NOT = {
domestic = { type = serfdom value = 7 }
}
}
random = no
country = ALT
name = "The State Reformed Church"
desc = "Pastors have been speaking the words of Jean Calvin from the pulpit. There is here a an opportunity to take advantage of this interpretation of the scriptures for our own uses, or ban it forever from our borders."
date = { day = 1 month = october year = 1527 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = october year = 1535 }

action_a = {
name = " No, this is too far, discourage these priests "
command = { type = relation which = SWA value = 50 }
command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 12 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 12 value = 1 }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
}
action_b = {
name = " Allow this interpretation "
command = { type = religion which = reformed }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -1 value = reformed }
command = { type = relation which = SWA value = -50 }
command = { type = domestic which = centralisation value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = serfdom value = -1 }
command = { type = DIP which = -2 value = 120 }
command = { type = ADM which = -1 value = 24 }
command = { type = ADM which = 2 value = 240 }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
}
}

event = {
id = 880351
trigger = {
religion = reformed
atwar = no
NOT = {
domestic = { type = serfdom value = 5 }
}
}
random = no
country = ALT
name = "The Provincial Reformed Church"
desc = "With Calvin's words sweeping the capital, it was not long before other provinces caught the spell of his interpretation of the scriptures. Since the publications of Luther's bible in the new art of printing, and the pamphlets that constantly cirulate around the lands it has been impossible to control in which way te people want to worship. This no longer something we can control."
date = { day = 1 month = october year = 1530 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = october year = 1540 }

action_a = {
name = " Let the priests spread their Word further "
command = { type = provincereligion which = 374 value = reformed } #Alsace
command = { type = provincereligion which = 332 value = reformed } #Anhalt
command = { type = provincereligion which = 373 value = reformed } #Baden
command = { type = provincereligion which = 336 value = reformed } #Bremen
command = { type = provincereligion which = 310 value = reformed } #Hannover
command = { type = provincereligion which = 333 value = reformed } #Hessen
command = { type = provincereligion which = 306 value = reformed } #Holstein
command = { type = provincereligion which = 309 value = reformed } #Jylland
command = { type = provincereligion which = 343 value = reformed } #Kleves
command = { type = provincereligion which = 344 value = reformed } #Köln
command = { type = provincereligion which = 375 value = reformed } #Lorraine
command = { type = provincereligion which = 311 value = reformed } #Magdeburg
command = { type = provincereligion which = 346 value = reformed } #Mainz
command = { type = provincereligion which = 305 value = reformed } #Mecklemburg
command = { type = provincereligion which = 334 value = reformed } #Münster
command = { type = provincereligion which = 335 value = reformed } #Oldenburg
command = { type = provincereligion which = 345 value = reformed } #Pfalz
command = { type = provincereligion which = 331 value = reformed } #Sachsen
command = { type = provincereligion which = 372 value = reformed } #Württemberg
command = { type = provincereligion which = 388 value = reformed } #Bern
command = { type = provincereligion which = 380 value = reformed } #Flandern
command = { type = provincereligion which = 337 value = reformed } #Friesen
command = { type = provincereligion which = 338 value = reformed } #Gelre
command = { type = provincereligion which = 339 value = reformed } #Holland
command = { type = provincereligion which = 377 value = reformed } #Luxembourg
command = { type = provincereligion which = 1612 value = reformed } #Schwyz
command = { type = provincereligion which = 340 value = reformed } #Zeeland
command = { type = provincereligion which = 403 value = reformed } #Liguria
command = { type = provincereligion which = 390 value = reformed } #Mantua
command = { type = provincereligion which = 404value = reformed } #Piedmonte
command = { type = provincereligion which = 405 value = reformed } #Savoie
command = { type = provincereligion which = 370 value = reformed } #Veneto
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 6 value = 1 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 24 value = 1 }
}
}

However.

Feel that the nature of Calvnism is such that the "Provincial Reformed CHurch" event should offer the choice to allow refomed teachings in provinces on a random basis. That it the event firs non randomly, but it selects yours provinces randomly, as follows:

command = { type = provincereligion which = -2 value = reformed }

Anyway, the following have Reformed as choice a)
The Hanseatic League
Jutland
Koln
Oldenburg
The Palatinate

...and the rest of the Germans have it as choice b). Swabia actually has options to ban or kill the calvinists, so the reformed choice becomes option d), in their role as 'protector' of the protestant faith.

[Don_Quigleone]

Cool, where else does reformed go? Also as the current events stand it's way too hard to go reformed with scotland, your nation is sent into COMPLETE anarchy, and if you've managed to build up an empire it's very hard to hold it together, I think th RR in the events should be toned down, combined it's like 20% which is a lot (especially considering it lasts something like 10 years...)

[MattyG]

Originally Posted by Don_Quigleone

Cool, where else does reformed go? Also as the current events stand it's way too hard to go reformed with scotland, your nation is sent into COMPLETE anarchy, and if you've managed to build up an empire it's very hard to hold it together, I think th RR in the events should be toned down, combined it's like 20% which is a lot (especially considering it lasts something like 10 years...)

Interesting, because the file Incompetant wrote actually has a note that comments on the level of RR and that it is possible to ride through it. Maybe he didn't test it enough. Personally, if you found it difficult, then maybe its just right. Religious conflict OUGHT to almost destroy a nation (see contemporary Iraq).

That said, Scotland's is a bot over the top, with RR of up to 12. So, I wittled it down to a maximum of 2 for the full length of ten years.

[Don_Quigleone]

Exactly, it's perfectly possible to do it (i'm not denying that) but it basically means that you're stuck fo ten years trying to squash revolts left, right and center, and if you've managed to amass anything before that, it's extremely difficult to hold onto it, it bassically eliminated (for me anyway) reformed as an option as the only way it could be avoided was to have 9 innovativeness (which can't be done if you plan on doing colonies or conversion) whereas you could pretty easily go protestant as you only needed 6 innovativeness to avoid the after effects, another reason it's pretty hard on the player is that it causes you to lose norwegian culture, basically there was no point in going reformed, in multiplayer you'd probably just kill yourself. Myself I'd do as you say and have it peak at 12 but be pretty low for most of the duration, I'd additionally remove the loss of norwegian culture as well, why should it be so hard for the scots to go reformed anyway?

[MattyG]

Originally Posted by Don_Quigleone

Exactly, it's perfectly possible to do it (i'm not denying that) but it basically means that you're stuck fo ten years trying to squash revolts left, right and center, and if you've managed to amass anything before that, it's extremely difficult to hold onto it, it bassically eliminated (for me anyway) reformed as an option as the only way it could be avoided was to have 9 innovativeness (which can't be done if you plan on doing colonies or conversion) whereas you could pretty easily go protestant as you only needed 6 innovativeness to avoid the after effects, another reason it's pretty hard on the player is that it causes you to lose norwegian culture, basically there was no point in going reformed, in multiplayer you'd probably just kill yourself. Myself I'd do as you say and have it peak at 12 but be pretty low for most of the duration, I'd additionally remove the loss of norwegian culture as well, why should it be so hard for the scots to go reformed anyway?

I think there rather ought to be a way to Norweigian culture back. I'll give it some thought ...

[MattyG]

I have just completed the first draft of the key event that leads to 'reformed' religions in our alternate reformation.

Here it is:

event = {
	id = 201
	random = no
	trigger = { event = 200 }
	name = "The Free Church Movement"
	desc = "'Neither Rome nor Ulm shall we worship, but God alone.' These words, long thought to be apocyphal, were discovered in 1938 amid a lost collection of papers by Savarics de Carcassone. Not only was the renowned quote accurate, but it appears to have been delivered in a sermon at Padua University, as long attributed. These words formed the touchstone for the burgeoning reaction to the Reformist Schism which would become known as the Free Church Movement. Savarics de Carcassone was able to capture the frustration felt by so many by the inability of the Catholic Church to reconcile the conservative and reformist wings. A generation had by now known only religious conflict, with towns, regions and cities divided. De Carcassone was a lay preacher and theologian who had the presence and oratory to sway listeners. Dispite his academic background, his appraoch was to travel, on foot, taking charity as it came, and preaching in ale houses, town squares, festivals, anywhere he might have an audience. Tireless and uncompromising, he inspired with an entourage of scribes who transcibed his writings and delivered them to sympathetic priests and bishops across Europe. Although himself closer to such herecies as the Lollards and Brotherhood of the Free Spirit, De Carcassone was not aligned with either faction of the Schism, and was careful to avoid appearing to support conservative or reformist ideas. Instead, his message was about who owned the church and whether any one church could claim to be annoited by God, that a direct communion with God was the basis of all faith and that a church must a community that whose worship supports 'each souls unique connection with the father'. Although few of the churches that emerged from the Free Church Movement would truly espouse this doctrine, de Carcassone's ideas would nonetheless fuel the abandonment of the Catholic Church and the establishment of new churches throughout Europe."
	date = { day = 13 month = february year = 1580 }

	action_a = {
		name = "OK"
		command = { type = flag which = 2 }
	}
}

So, Reformed will be the game tag for all the various churches that split off from the two Catholic Churches, either because they are old-style protestants/Lollards/Cathars etc or for political reasons (like ole Henry VIII).

Note that the event has a set date.

Once this has triggered, each Catholic and Protestant state will get a response event at some point in the succeeding 10 years, which will allow them to respond to the Free Church Movement. For most it will mean supression, revoltrisk etc, but others may have Accept Them as their action_a.

Nations who accept the Free Churches will then later get a chance to convert, or to supress them now that they have grown in number and influence. Most versions of converting will be in the form of establishing a national church, like the Churches of England or Scotland in RL.