Thoughts on attrition....

Syt · 01-02-2001, 19:35

One of the concepts I like about Europa Universalis is attrition. When you move your army around, soldiers die of disease, desert, go astray... Army leader come and die... However, if you leave an army where it is (say, to guard your capital during a whole game) there is no attrition. No people tie or are lost in this army, as long as you don't move it and have a province that can support the army. Soooo..... are there no diseases, deserters or deaths of other causes when an army is encamped? Or are the expenses to maintain the number of a stationary already included in the normal maintenance cost for the unit (food, weapons, pay for the warriors)? And the attrition that draws on men during a march is only additional to this, not covered by the usual expenses? What do you think?

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Attrition is not a strategy. Attrition is the apparent lack of strategy. (Sun Tzu)

The Brain · 01-02-2001, 20:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Sytass:
... Or are the expenses to maintain the number of a stationary already included in the normal maintenance cost for the unit (food, weapons, pay for the warriors)? And the attrition that draws on men during a march is only additional to this, not covered by the usual expenses? ...

I guess so, yes.

*Dark Knight* · 02-02-2001, 00:59

Maintenance costs means all normal peacetime costs associated with the military, which I suppose would include turnover of personnel. It would be rather irritating if players were forced to constantly recruit more men for a completely stationary army.

Greven · 02-02-2001, 09:14

'No people tie or are lost in this army, as long as you don't move it and have a province that can support the army.'

They supply level diminishes resulting in a higher attrition level when a province experiences winter.

/Greven

Cobos · 02-02-2001, 11:42

In Norways most efficient weapon, namely the provinces Narvik and Finmark any army it seems attritions away.... You can keep a 2000 man army there for some time, but after around 10 years it's gone, and I'm talking about peacetime attrition now, not 40k of Swedes bleeding against the mighty fortress there

)

Cobos

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If you are not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate.

Syt · 02-02-2001, 20:06

Guess I have been missing on that one yet. I, too, noticed dwindling armies in provinces, but it only came to my attention when the army was in a province that couldn't support it.

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Attrition is not a strategy. Attrition is the apparent lack of strategy. (Sun Tzu)

Magnus · 02-02-2001, 20:11

See Martin Van Creveld's Supplying War for a thorough discussionof logistics. And particularly the danger of eating out a province by standing still vs. constantly flying forward to find fresh forage in this era.

Huszics · 02-02-2001, 21:13

When you move your army around ...
Currently sometimes not even then.
Attrition is only checked every turn of the month and except for artillery moeving in mountains & marshes it is very simple to sync movements so that you have 0 attrition. I personally use it all the time.

Paradox, a fix for this perhaps ?
Check attrition every 10 days or flagg units as 'moved this month' even if standing still at the turn of the month ?
Know it's mayby not on the top of the list but anyway ...

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/ Stefan Huszics members.nbci.com/huszics/

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Arinvald · 02-02-2001, 21:40

In the time period represented in the game the armies had a supply train connected to depots which would supply the majority of their needs while on campaign. An army didnt just move into an area and live only on what that area produced, at least one of any size. Very few areas could sustain a large army in such a situation and armies would be restricted to a very small area of the total landmass of the world. I would think that a nation's army tech level should play a part in here somewhere.

Also If an army is in its home country and at peace, you would assume its in an encampment or barracks and not living off the land, therefore its ability to be supplied should increase and its attrition should be less but I agree it shouldnt disappear completely.

Cobos · 02-02-2001, 21:50

Attrition levels are reduced with higher tech levels, that is one of the advantegous of having a high tech level. And in the core European provinces, they are so big they support armies of 40k and upwards easily, but as soon as you start moving in mountains or the colonies or other places, you will definately feel attrition. Especially since many of the colonies has a special tropical 'bonus' to attrition

You'll notice colonial armies very seldom are above 20k and normally are within the 0-10k size... Otherwise you'll just loose all the men.
But I agree with Huszics that there should be checked for attrition more often or use a flagging system, but I tend to have my moves lasting for more than a month...

Cobos

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If you are not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate.

Arinvald · 02-02-2001, 22:03

Cobos,
Thanks, that helps clear that up some. Sounds like Paradox has really put a lot of thought into the game. I agree as well,there should be no way to game attrition.

Syt · 03-02-2001, 06:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Arinvald:
Also If an army is in its home country and at peace, you would assume its in an encampment or barracks and not living off the land, therefore its ability to be supplied should increase and its attrition should be less but I agree it shouldnt disappear completely.

Maybe barracks or supply depots should be additions to the city menu? What I suggest is that when you reach a certain level in infantry or infrastructure trchnology you can buy a building that helps sustain an army located there. Maybe you could set of how much you want to invest in preserving your force there. The more you pay per month the lower is he attrition.

Just an idea that may be difficult enough to implement. After all, a lot of thought has gone into attrition already. But I also agree that attrition should be checked at least twice for moving armies.

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Attrition is not a strategy. Attrition is the apparent lack of strategy. (Sun Tzu)

Huszics · 03-02-2001, 12:24

What I suggest is that when you reach a certain level in infantry or infrastructure trchnology you can buy a building that helps sustain an army located there.

This is probably what's hidden in the '10-tech ' maximum attrition for your units. Not shure if a change like your suggesting would really improve the gameplay experience.
EU is not a game where you 'research' buildings and as soon as possible you always start building it into every available province. All these new buildings are 'auto built' for you and included in the research cost. The things you can build usually have negative sideeffects (bailiff), are quite expensive (manufacturies & wharfs) or have some speciall effect you do not wan't en masse (govenor).

There are lots of other RTS games you can try if you want to manually build everything...

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Syt · 03-02-2001, 13:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Huszics:
This is probably what's hidden in the '10-tech ' maximum attrition for your units. Not shure if a change like your suggesting would really improve the gameplay experience.
EU is not a game where you 'research' buildings and as soon as possible you always start building it into every available province. All these new buildings are 'auto built' for you and included in the research cost. The things you can build usually have negative sideeffects (bailiff), are quite expensive (manufacturies & wharfs) or have some speciall effect you do not wan't en masse (govenor).

There are lots of other RTS games you can try if you want to manually build everything...

Don't worry, I don't care too much for RTS. However, I think you are right about the level 10 tech. However, you also have to manually build large wharfs and conscription centers manually after you have reached a certain tech level, so I don't see how building barracks would largely hamper gameplay. With a price not too low you have to strategically choose where to build barracks/supply depots. And this leads to.... hmm.... not too much added gameplay, I guess, as you mostly move armies and not leave them where they are for 50 years.

Ok, maybe it's not that great an idea after all!

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Attrition is not a strategy. Attrition is the apparent lack of strategy. (Sun Tzu)

Matte979 · 05-02-2001, 09:07

Two things I have realised when playing.
For those that don't know.

* First the max level of troops in a province before attrition is checked with weight on the unit. Meaning horses eat more. So don't use cavalry when doing seiges, as they wont help anyway.

* Second you can raise the max level of troops before attrition by building defences. So there you have your barracks.

You can check how much a certain level of defence adds by placing the mouse pointer over the attrition level in the province.

/Mathias

Cobos · 05-02-2001, 11:30

Matte: What do you mean by defenses ? Castle/fortification levels ? Or something else ?

Cobos

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If you are not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate.

The Brain · 05-02-2001, 11:58

Fortifications increase the supply level significantly.

zwingli · 06-02-2001, 09:53

Quote:

Originally posted by The Brain:
Fortifications increase the supply level significantly.

I believe that the supported army size increases by at least 10k per fortification level. Although I think with the higher level forts (like level 5 and 6) the increase is even bigger. Not sure if conscription center do add to the total support level as well.

/zwingli

01-02-2001, 19:35	#1
Syt Lewwer duad üs slaav! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Vienna, Austria. Posts: 6,550	One of the concepts I like about Europa Universalis is attrition. When you move your army around, soldiers die of disease, desert, go astray... Army leader come and die... However, if you leave an army where it is (say, to guard your capital during a whole game) there is no attrition. No people tie or are lost in this army, as long as you don't move it and have a province that can support the army. Soooo..... are there no diseases, deserters or deaths of other causes when an army is encamped? Or are the expenses to maintain the number of a stationary already included in the normal maintenance cost for the unit (food, weapons, pay for the warriors)? And the attrition that draws on men during a march is only additional to this, not covered by the usual expenses? What do you think? ------------------ Attrition is not a strategy. Attrition is the apparent lack of strategy. (Sun Tzu)

02-02-2001, 00:59	#3
Dark Knight Troll-slayer Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 9,180	Maintenance costs means all normal peacetime costs associated with the military, which I suppose would include turnover of personnel. It would be rather irritating if players were forced to constantly recruit more men for a completely stationary army.

02-02-2001, 09:14	#4
Greven Game Designer Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Casterly Rock Posts: 3,461	'No people tie or are lost in this army, as long as you don't move it and have a province that can support the army.' They supply level diminishes resulting in a higher attrition level when a province experiences winter. /Greven

02-02-2001, 11:42	#5
Cobos Major Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 539	In Norways most efficient weapon, namely the provinces Narvik and Finmark any army it seems attritions away.... You can keep a 2000 man army there for some time, but after around 10 years it's gone, and I'm talking about peacetime attrition now, not 40k of Swedes bleeding against the mighty fortress there ) Cobos ------------------ If you are not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate.

02-02-2001, 20:06	#6
Syt Lewwer duad üs slaav! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Vienna, Austria. Posts: 6,550	Guess I have been missing on that one yet. I, too, noticed dwindling armies in provinces, but it only came to my attention when the army was in a province that couldn't support it. ------------------ Attrition is not a strategy. Attrition is the apparent lack of strategy. (Sun Tzu)

02-02-2001, 20:11	#7
Magnus Captain Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Arlington, VA, USA Posts: 315	See Martin Van Creveld's Supplying War for a thorough discussionof logistics. And particularly the danger of eating out a province by standing still vs. constantly flying forward to find fresh forage in this era.

02-02-2001, 21:13	#8
Huszics Bugzilla Spammer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: EU-Province: Västerbotten Sweden Posts: 3,628	When you move your army around ... Currently sometimes not even then. Attrition is only checked every turn of the month and except for artillery moeving in mountains & marshes it is very simple to sync movements so that you have 0 attrition. I personally use it all the time. Paradox, a fix for this perhaps ? Check attrition every 10 days or flagg units as 'moved this month' even if standing still at the turn of the month ? Know it's mayby not on the top of the list but anyway ... ------------------ / Stefan Huszics members.nbci.com/huszics/ Warning: best viewed with Mozilla (NS6alpha) or Opera 5.x

02-02-2001, 21:40	#9
Arinvald Second Lieutenant Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 191	In the time period represented in the game the armies had a supply train connected to depots which would supply the majority of their needs while on campaign. An army didnt just move into an area and live only on what that area produced, at least one of any size. Very few areas could sustain a large army in such a situation and armies would be restricted to a very small area of the total landmass of the world. I would think that a nation's army tech level should play a part in here somewhere. Also If an army is in its home country and at peace, you would assume its in an encampment or barracks and not living off the land, therefore its ability to be supplied should increase and its attrition should be less but I agree it shouldnt disappear completely.

02-02-2001, 21:50	#10
Cobos Major Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 539	Attrition levels are reduced with higher tech levels, that is one of the advantegous of having a high tech level. And in the core European provinces, they are so big they support armies of 40k and upwards easily, but as soon as you start moving in mountains or the colonies or other places, you will definately feel attrition. Especially since many of the colonies has a special tropical 'bonus' to attrition You'll notice colonial armies very seldom are above 20k and normally are within the 0-10k size... Otherwise you'll just loose all the men. But I agree with Huszics that there should be checked for attrition more often or use a flagging system, but I tend to have my moves lasting for more than a month... Cobos ------------------ If you are not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate.

02-02-2001, 22:03	#11
Arinvald Second Lieutenant Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 191	Cobos, Thanks, that helps clear that up some. Sounds like Paradox has really put a lot of thought into the game. I agree as well,there should be no way to game attrition.

03-02-2001, 12:24	#13
Huszics Bugzilla Spammer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: EU-Province: Västerbotten Sweden Posts: 3,628	What I suggest is that when you reach a certain level in infantry or infrastructure trchnology you can buy a building that helps sustain an army located there. This is probably what's hidden in the '10-tech ' maximum attrition for your units. Not shure if a change like your suggesting would really improve the gameplay experience. EU is not a game where you 'research' buildings and as soon as possible you always start building it into every available province. All these new buildings are 'auto built' for you and included in the research cost. The things you can build usually have negative sideeffects (bailiff), are quite expensive (manufacturies & wharfs) or have some speciall effect you do not wan't en masse (govenor). There are lots of other RTS games you can try if you want to manually build everything... ------------------ / Stefan Huszics FAQ at members.nbci.com/huszics/ Warning: best viewed with Mozilla (NS6alpha) or Opera 5.x If the page doesn't load at all or only partially, the webservers are overstrained. Try again later.

05-02-2001, 09:07	#15
Matte979 Private Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sweden Posts: 24	Two things I have realised when playing. For those that don't know. * First the max level of troops in a province before attrition is checked with weight on the unit. Meaning horses eat more. So don't use cavalry when doing seiges, as they wont help anyway. * Second you can raise the max level of troops before attrition by building defences. So there you have your barracks. You can check how much a certain level of defence adds by placing the mouse pointer over the attrition level in the province. /Mathias

05-02-2001, 11:30	#16
Cobos Major Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 539	Matte: What do you mean by defenses ? Castle/fortification levels ? Or something else ? Cobos ------------------ If you are not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate.

05-02-2001, 11:58	#17
The Brain "Oldest Sig" Champ Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Sweden Posts: 501	Fortifications increase the supply level significantly.