HoI3: Active, Provinceless Combat

[hellfish6]

DanDaMan has given me a lot of food for thought about provinceless combat in another thread, and I thought it was worthy of its own thread. I've added some of my own thoughts to it as well.

The Idea

Remove the province system from HoI3's combat system. Provinces may be retained for some administrative functions, but I prefer - and illustrate here - a totally provinceless system.

Why?

This system makes combat more realistic, as you're not fighting over artificial provinces. Instead you fight over key terrain (point objects) on the map - cities, towns, airfields, ports, bridges, etc.

It also allows for more interesting combat, as you get to move your forces without the constraints of abstract and artificial provinces - some of which in HoI2 could be huge and some of which could be tiny.

How it works

1. Radius of action.

In an active, provinceless combat system ground and naval units are represented by point objects on the map - just like towns and cities. The point determines the map location of that unit and is itself determined by the unit's center of mass. The Radius of Action (RoA) is the range of the unit's influence - the limit of the RoA is determined by a percentage of the unit's combat power. If a division has a 20km RoA (20km from the unit's center of mass), that means that 10% of its combat power is effective. Any enemy unit with its center of mass at the 20km mark will be attacked with 10% of the combat power of the division. Likewise, the enemy will attack as well if your division is within their radius of action. As the distance between the two units closes, the combat power of each division increases. At 10km, your division has 50% of its combat power available to it. When the two units are practically on top of each other, each fights with nearly 100% of its combat power.

Aircraft units likewise have a RoA, but theirs is determined by range from their airbase. If a tactical bomber unit has a 500km RoA, they can attack any target within 500km of their airbase.

Naval units are largely treated as other ground units, except their RoAs will tend to be greater and they are restricted to operating at sea.

2. Supply.

Supply is traced via roads and railroads from major friendly cities. If there is no open road/rail link from your division to a friendly city, that division is out of supply.

3. Attacking, defending, and reserve.

When you're attacking, you select a division (or corps or army) and basically click on the map to give it a destination waypoint. Likewise, if you shift+click on the map you can give the unit multiple waypoints. The speed of the advance will be determined by what terrain the unit's center of gravity is located on. If the unit's CoG is on a mountain, it will be slow. If it is on a road, it will be fast.

When defending, instead of selecting waypoints, you create a defensive line. click and drag to create a defensive line. This line will give the defending unit an RoA bonus, so that they can use their entire RoA without range restrictions.

Reserve posture for a division quadruples the RoA of the division, and likewise decreases the overall effectiveness of the unit. It's useful for garrisons and units not in combat.

Illustrations:



Jamaica (picked because it was a good quality map roughly of the style I like).

You can see the road system (red lines) and the important point objects (towns, city, airfield and port).



Here is the radius of action for a tactical bomber unit based at the Jamaican air base. Also in the pic is the info tab of the airbase, which details the size of the base, the value of the air defenses and radar systems of that base as well as what units are based there. If this was a city info tab, it might show IC capacity of the point object, manpower, resources, etc.



Combat.

Enemy division is red and its RoA is shown with the thin red circle around it. The defensive line is the thick red line on the southeast side of it.

The friendly division is blue, with its RoA shown buy a thin blue circle around it. It has attack waypoints that skirt around the red defensive line. Since the friendly division's center of gravity will not touch the defensive line, the defending enemy unit will not receive a defensive bonus.

Also shown is the unit info screen of the friendly division. This is derived from my Build-Your-Own-Division system, and shows the overall capabilities of the division. It also lets you see what kinds of components your division has (tooltips can tell you if your tank battalion is M4A1s or M5s) as well as buttons to disband or upgrade the division (allowing you to swap out battalions if you want).

Also note the leader screen. In this system, the leader is attached to the division like a brigade of its own. If you combine three divisions into a single corps, each division will retain its general and the corps will have its own general on top of that. Also the general will have personality traits (like Vicky) as well as combat traits (like HoI2).

[xsx12]

Most Awesome Idea ever, it would allow us to fight WW2, not Province Wars! IU throw my support 500% behind this, thats right, it would take 5 serious issues/bugs for me not to like this idea. This is the most revolutionary idea out their, but the Division sizing would have to be reworked. How about being able to split your forces into Regiments/Brigades? If that doesn't work out, I love all the supply, Air Range ETC Ideas. The Idea is almost to good. How would that be accomplished on the map is the question? I want to see this in HOI3 when it comes out. Very much.

[Myth]

I'd definitely love this

Also the general will have personality traits (like Vicky) as well as combat traits (like HoI2).

I like my idea for this better, drop Vicky and HoI2, go straight to CK

[DanDaMan]

I think mapping all of the roads/rail lines might be a bit too difficult. Especially if you try to make them all historically accurate. And the roads and rails of 1936 wouldn't be the same as 1947. You would also need some way to dynamically change them if the player decides to upgrade infrastructure. I think the abstracted infrastructure value is good enough.

One thing that is missing from the map is who controls which territory. There always has to be a definite line of who has what. I think it would be a nice touch to show some things like population, infrastructure, ethnicity/political support, dissent, partisan activity, agriculture as a gradient of "whatever value" per square km across all of your territory. Other than that all my ideas are in the other thread about HOI3.

[Myth]

I think the abstracted infrastructure value is good enough.

I'm wondering just how this would work though? would it be per square kilometer, or per "province" (as it were, such as say, you want to upgrade the infrastructure in the area bounded by the real-life province of Yorkshire), some other way?

[Myth]

an idea: what of a hybrid province/seamless map? combat takes place on the seamless variety, whereas for stuffs such as AA or industry, the player may decide to build them at specific points or simply within a larger province, and if this latter choice is taken then they are simply randomly placed within the borders of said province?

then, specifically for infrastructure, you may choose simply to upgrade the entire infrastructure within a province or, for less time and less IC, you might simply choose to upgrade a certain road that connects two cities, or only roads that go east/west or north/south. (this is assuming that every town and city on the map within the province is connected by the most direct route [given forests and other natural obstacles] to every adjacent town/city within the province. also, perhaps highways connecting the largest cities of each province together (and these largest cities act as hubs to the rest of the province). haven't really thought this through at all, just throwing out the random idea that popped into my head.

[hellfish6]

Originally Posted by DanDaMan

I think mapping all of the roads/rail lines might be a bit too difficult. Especially if you try to make them all historically accurate. And the roads and rails of 1936 wouldn't be the same as 1947.

I don't think you'd need to be 100% historically accurate about it. Nothing else in HoI2 is 100% accurate - often not even close - so why should this be any different? You could theoretically just draw the road and rail lines on a bmp (in the EU3 engine) and leave them open to modding. As long as they're reasonably logical, I don't see a problem.

You would also need some way to dynamically change them if the player decides to upgrade infrastructure. I think the abstracted infrastructure value is good enough.

How would you do abstracted infrastucture values in a provinceless system?

One thing that is missing from the map is who controls which territory. There always has to be a definite line of who has what.

I disagree. If you don't have forces stationed somewhere, you shouldn't know where the front line begins or ends. Maybe using Jamaica was a bad example. Here's Hungary. No formal front lines are drawn, but in general you've got a very good idea of where the front lines are.

I think it would be a nice touch to show some things like population, infrastructure, ethnicity/political support, dissent, partisan activity, agriculture as a gradient of "whatever value" per square km across all of your territory. Other than that all my ideas are in the other thread about HOI3.

That can all be shown in the info tab of a city, just like the airfield info tab.

[LL21]

I think this would require extremly powerfull computer to simulate provinceless mode.But a great idea

[LL21]

Would this be same in naval warfare

[HMS Enterprize]

Like the idea here, although I have one question regarding the jamaica example.

It is shown that the blue division skirts around the edge of the defensive line. However it would be fair to say that the blue unit's ROA would overlap a part of the defensive line- I assume this would mean that a combat is started- however you dont seem to suggest this...

I would have thought if ROAs cross that would suggest at least recon units coming into contact?

[Myth]

I disagree. If you don't have forces stationed somewhere, you shouldn't know where the front line begins or ends. Maybe using Jamaica was a bad example. Here's Hungary. No formal front lines are drawn, but in general you've got a very good idea of where the front lines are.

but what about peace time?

[Samilou]

Originally Posted by LL21

I think this would require extremly powerfull computer to simulate provinceless mode.But a great idea

Considering it's a few years or possibly a decade til HoI3 such powerful computers would exist by then and be very common. Actually this is small-potatoes even now, look at Supreme Ruler 2010, it's much more complicated and advanced than this, what demands from the computer is graphics, graphics and graphics.

[hellfish6]

Originally Posted by HMS Enterprize

Like the idea here, although I have one question regarding the jamaica example.

It is shown that the blue division skirts around the edge of the defensive line. However it would be fair to say that the blue unit's ROA would overlap a part of the defensive line- I assume this would mean that a combat is started- however you dont seem to suggest this...

I would have thought if ROAs cross that would suggest at least recon units coming into contact?

Yes - exactly. When the ROAs start to overlap, combat is initiated. At extreme range, ROAs simulate recon skirmishes and artillery support/interdiction. As the two divisions close the distance between their centers of gravity, the amount of their total firepower they bring to bear goes up proportionately, simulating the escalation of combat and the introduction of new forces into the fighting.

[DanDaMan]

You need to have front lines and territory for stuff like who controls which industrial areas

[hellfish6]

Originally Posted by DanDaMan

You need to have front lines and territory for stuff like who controls which industrial areas

Fair enough. But then I'll pose the question again - how would you do it in a provinceless system? What would determine where the front line is? The halfway point between any two opposing units?

[Dionysius]

anyone here play Rome Total War? i`d like a province/combat system something like that.

[Myth]

that wouldn't work well at all. remember that total war's grand strategy is not only turn-based, but incredibly shallow.

Fair enough. But then I'll pose the question again - how would you do it in a provinceless system? What would determine where the front line is? The halfway point between any two opposing units?

if both opposing divisions are stationary, I'd say yes. if one is advancing then obviously it'll be (marginally) pushing the frontline forward in front of it. I'd also say, however, that any industry between two opposing divisions is damaged/destroyed and, seeing as they'd be in a combat zone, most likely not manned and thus not counting for anyone, which eliminates that problem as only factories and other infrastructure behind the frontlines would count for anything.

I'm wondering, however, how partisans and rebels would work. would there be roving militia divisions that control and destroy everything that comes within their RoA?

[hellfish6]

Originally Posted by Myth

I'm wondering, however, how partisans and rebels would work. would there be roving militia divisions that control and destroy everything that comes within their RoA?

I'd think they'd pop up randomly in occupied terrain (maybe more frequently around population centers?). They might have a significant ROA because they're dispersed in small groups, but overall pretty weak (few guerrilla forces can stand up in a conventional fight). They'd affect supply lines and, if left unchecked, would spawn new rebel/partisans at varying rates (say 50% chance for a new rebel unit per currently existing rebel unit per year, depending on dissent levels). That way they grow slowly but exponentially (like real guerrillas) and while you can kill them with conventional forces, you can't stop them with just your military. You'd need to adjust policies to lower the dissent levels in occupied territory.

This might be more useful if HoI3 was going to be a Cold War game, as this might be better suited to the post-colonial conflicts after WWII (Vietnam, Nicaragua, Africa, etc.).

[Myth]

well, there was massive partisan action on the Eastern Front and in China against the Japanese. anyway, I'd say that it should be rather difficult for conventional forces to wipe out rebels. the German experience on the Eastern Front showed they could always disperse and hide in villages and forests and swamps and whatnot, and the Germans could only do little to stop them. thus, while more of a danger to supply lines and infrastructure than divisions and armies, they should be fairly damn hard to wipe out (or, perhaps, wiping one out would temporarily increase the likelihood of another spawning nearby).

[DanDaMan]

Basically just what I said in the other thread about HOI3. The front line is by definition where combat takes place between two countries. Before the war it would be the borders of your country. You can deploy divisions along the front line so that they are spread out like a line or you can deploy mobilized divisions along it ready to attack as a point. When you launch an attack against the enemy the front line shifts based on how much resistance they put up. If you attack in a small concentrated area you might push a salient into the line. If you have a broad sweeping attack you move the whole line. If there is nobody opposing you on the other side then there is no resistance and you can walk all over their territory and push the frontline back until you meet some resistance somewhere.

It would probably take a lot of tweaking and testing to get an algorithm for front line movement in combat, but it will all depend on the stats of the attackers vs the defenders opposite them. So when you launch an offensive, the basic command would be to say attack until you get this far forward or you lose this much strength. You could also have divisions stretched along the line that will move with it and resist a counter attack but aren't yet commited to the offensive.

If you had a partisan uprising or an amphibious landing or a paradrop, the new frontline would be established as a small circle around the opposing force. For paradrops there might be some pre-combat during the time it takes them to get assembled if they happen to drop right on top of your armies.

When you close a pocket, the frontline disappears at that point and all the troops along it are automatically mobilized so they can be moved somewhere else.

The reason I suggested that population and ethnicity and ideology and dissent be modelled as gradients was so that you don't have big partisan uprisings coming out of the middle of the siberian wasteland. A partisan value should be calculated from the other numbers. Of course cities would have specific values and be more likely to host a rebellion if they have a big population and big dissent. So a city could have a population of 500 000 and the neary area might have a population density of say 8/sqkm or something like that. Other values would just have to be on an arbitrary scale of dissent.
The ultimate goal being to have a partisan density which affects movement of supplies and troops. Partisan density can't be definitively measured, it requires some sort of domestic intelligence gathering. If partisan density gets high enough you might have an uprising.