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unmerged(49082)

unmerged(49082)

Field Crown Hetman
Oct 2, 2005
1.170
2
I have a question for pro players to answer. What determines what party gets votes when both have the same ideology?

Let's take an example. Argentina, GC, 1.04. Year 1856 is a start date for Partido Liberal and this is when you can have two liberal parties at the same time (provided Partido Unitario is currently in power). Here is an extract from the party file:
Code: 
country;id;name;start;end;ideology;Economic;Trade;Religious;Minority;War;Culture;Religion;Status
ARG;16600;Partido Liberal;1856;2000;liberal;laissez_faire;free_trade;moralism;limited_citizenship;pro_military;all;all;x
ARG;16601;Partido Unitario;1835;1856;liberal;laissez_faire;free_trade;pluralism;full_citizenship;pro_military;all;all;x
As you can see Partido Liberal has a lower ID than Partido Unitario. The game engine as a general rule favours lower IDs and it does as well here. No matter what you do, sooner or later the first party gets all the liberal votes. Btw is there anyone out there that managed to hold Partido Unitario in power by in-game means without cheating (under democracy)? I suspect this is WAD but is there any way around it?
 
But Argentina has many states, and I found when playing Uruguay (1 state) that those events don't do much.
You could try closing factories and RGOs (for unemployment) or stop selling in the WM, although I have no idea if that has any effect (maybe you only raise Partido LIberal's votes, or you end up with a socialist party)
 
Geroshabu is certainly right - if in the election you favour electoral responses that match the party of your choice - they will have have an increased chance of being elected.

This is more useful in a small country than a large one, as these issues are decided at a State level: the fewer states, the lager the proportional effect.

But your question still remains. Playing Brazil once with a purely Landed electorate I banned all laissez faire governments with the result that there was 0.00% vote of any sort(??). The incumbent government was returned on two occasions before I changed this situation.
 
Mazyrian said:
But Argentina has many states, and I found when playing Uruguay (1 state) that those events don't do much.
You could try closing factories and RGOs (for unemployment) or stop selling in the WM, although I have no idea if that has any effect (maybe you only raise Partido LIberal's votes, or you end up with a socialist party)
Click to expand...

You need to pick Populism in the event "Populism vs. Establishment" from the State and Government tech to make these choices important. By picking establishment they won't really make a difference, which is bad if you have several similar ideology parties. You need some luck, but if they trigger in your most populated states, you have a good chance of getting the party you want.
And if you don't get it immediately, you could either try by either triggering some of the election events manually, or by holding continious reelections.
 
I have run some tests that show that the vote_on_ideology value is not that much important at all. If I set my whole population's dominant issue to full citizenship Partido Unitario gets all the liberal votes no matter what the setting is, while if I set something else beside pluralism (second unique stance) Partido Liberal gets all. The next surprise (or mayby quite the opposite - as expected) is that there is some magic behind the election resolving system that makes getting an exact formula neigh on impossible. When a second liberal pary appears the combined support for liberals is lower but when I trigger my testing event (e.g. command = {type = pop_dominant_issue which = 100 value = full_citizenship }) it goes back to the previous value. Conclusion - during normal gameplay new party of the same ideology may screw voting patters. I hope I will make some more detailed testing on the subject one day.

From what I would guess now the system works this way (a sketch for 1.04):
1. One pop one vote (if the voting right allow it to vote).
2. If pop has the ideology that only one available party presents, add a vote to it.
3. If pop has the ideology that more than one available party presents and the pop has a dominant issue that only one of the previous parties has as a stance, add a vote to it.
3. If pop has the ideology that more than one available party presents and the pop has a dominant issue that more than one of the previous parties has as a stance, add a vote to the one with the lower ID (the one that is higher in the party screen).
4. If pop has the ideology that none of the available parties presents, add vote to the party that has pop's dominant issue as a stance (?), or if there are more such parties, add a vote to the one with the lower ID.

What I am not completely sure is the rule one pop = one vote. Votes are certainly tied to the number of pops rather than to the number of people but the empiric results don't always confirm this rule. Mayby it is tied to pop size efficiency tiers but I don't think it always works that way either. Tell me what you think about these rules from your experience. I know that they are not always correct so there must be some other hidden factor.
 
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Usually there shouldn't be two similar parties available at the same time, I think. In this example Partido Unitario, the first Argentinian liberal party should die at the same time when the another liberal party, Partido Liberal comes available. But if Partido Unitario is ruling when it should die, I guess this kind of situations are possible.
 
Jaeger74 said:
Usually there shouldn't be two similar parties available at the same time, I think. In this example Partido Unitario, the first Argentinian liberal party should die at the same time when the another liberal party, Partido Liberal comes available. But if Partido Unitario is ruling when it should die, I guess this kind of situations are possible.
Click to expand...
Not only such situations may happen but in this particular case you want Partido Unitario to hold power simply because it is (much) better. You will want to do everything to keep them even after the death date and to do so you must know exactly what are the mechanics behind the scene. Hence this post asking for help.
 
I have made some more testing (Uruguay, 1914 scenario, some edits to make it easy to test). First a couple of interesting observations. Elections can take place under democracy, monarchy and con. monarchy. Dictatorships seem to be unable to run elections no matter what. Elections can obviously only take place with voting rights other than none. You can have an election even with none parties allowed (there is only one party available though). Banning parties is allowed only with right to ban and either hms government or laws by decree executive designation. If pops want to vote on a banned party (it doesn't matter if there is a second one just as good but not choosen) their votes are wasted, don't count. Setting a ruling party is allowed with any goverment besides democracy, you only need to have more than one party available (so this leaves out one_party system).

The vote_on_ideology setting doesn't seem to do anything at all. If you have evidence that it does, please prove me wrong by posting here.

Seondary issues (which are simply dominant issues pops had before the current one) do have a meaning if the dominant issue doesn't help to decide. When two parties have exactly the same support, the one that is currently in power wins, or if this doesn't help to decide, the one with lower ID.

Pops can only vote on parties that accept their culture and religion. Ruling party immigration stance (full/limited citizenship/residence/slavery) doesn't seem to affect non-national culture pops to vote (as opposed to what VickyWiki states). If a pop doesn't find a proper party, it's vote is wasted.


So here is an updated algorithm of counting votes (remember it is for 1.04, I don't posess V:R, but votes there are proportional to pop size):
1. One pop one vote (if the voting rights allow it to vote). A pop can only choose between parties that accept it's culture and religion. If a pop cannot find such, it has no party to vote for and therefore the vote is wasted (doesn't count). If a pop decides to vote on one particular party, according to the rules below, and the party is banned, the vote is wasted.
2. If a pop has the ideology that only one available party represents, vote on it.
3. If pop has the ideology that more than one available party represents choose only between them.
4. If a pop has the ideology that none of the available parties represent, search for a second or third option as follows:
conservative -> none
reactionary -> conservative
liberal -> conservative and anarcho-liberal
anarcho-liberal -> liberals -> socialist
socialist -> anarcho-liberal -> communist
communist -> socialist -> conservative
If the second option is represented by only one party, vote on it. If the second option is represented by more than one party choose only between them. If the second option is not represented by any party use a third option (if any) just as it was a second option.
5. If a pop has a dominant issue that only one of the eligible parties has as a stance, add a vote to it.
6. If a pop has a dominant issue that more than one of the eligible parties has as a stance choose only between them.
7. If a pop has a secondary issue that only one of the eligible parties has as a stance, add a vote to it.
8. If a pop has a secondary issue that more than one of the eligible parties has as a stance choose only between them.
9. If there is still more than one party left to choose between, pick the one with the lower ID (higher in the party screen).


In brief it means that the deciding factors from the most to the least important are:
ideology
dominant issue
secondary issue
ID


I also suspect that crime can affect the results. But I'd be pleased if anyone could explain that in detail. VickyWiki also states that consciousness and/or plurality affects pops voting choices. Again, anyone could explain that in detail? I think it would be worth to write an article on VickyWiki about the subject of elections so please free to add your own suggestions.
 
VickyWiki also states that consciousness and/or plurality affects pops voting choices.
Click to expand...
Indeed, I've seen voting choices change radically when there is a quick change in plurality (by event for example). I'm not sure the algorithm on this, but I've definitely seen the proof in more than one game.
 
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It may be hard to test the influence of CON on voting. I made my testing in sterile enviroment using few homogenious pops. Running such tests during normal gameplay is hard to do, there may be too many factors that obfuscate the situation. Right now I can't even imagine how such test should look like.

Tell me if I am cotrrect: high CON is supposed to make pops vote as they like while low CON to vote on the ruling party, right?
 
Walen said:
Tell me if I am cotrrect: high CON is supposed to make pops vote as they like while low CON to vote on the ruling party, right?
Click to expand...

I believe that is right, but also high CON IIRC makes voters more likely to vote for their current ideological setting while low CON makes them more likely to vote for whatever their main issues are.
 
OHgamer said:
I believe that is right, but also high CON IIRC makes voters more likely to vote for their current ideological setting while low CON makes them more likely to vote for whatever their main issues are.
Click to expand...

I thought it worked dually- if high CON but low plurality(not sure what is low, <50%?) then the vote is ideology primarily, if high CON and high PLUR then dominant issue can surpass ideology, if low CON and low PLUR then it goes strictly by idealogy, low CON and high PLUR(would probably be rare situation in game but depending on how played could be created) then it's issues again.
 
From what I've read of OHgamer's take on this, low CON leads to issues-based voting, whereas high CON leads to ideology-based voting. Apparently, high CON means they become conscious of themselves as part of a larger community. They're willing to put aside their own personal favorite issues so that the group (which they are highly CONscious of) is benefited.
 
JohnMK said:
From what I've read of OHgamer's take on this, low CON leads to issues-based voting, whereas high CON leads to ideology-based voting. Apparently, high CON means they become conscious of themselves as part of a larger community. They're willing to put aside their own personal favorite issues so that the group (which they are highly CONscious of) is benefited.
Click to expand...

But if plurality is high they recognize their place in the group or they try to achieve what they think the group should be as a reflection of themselves. I don't know... it's very interesting and I'd love to see an interview with the people who coded this. It sounds like they noticed that voters often vote against their own interests if convinced that their core idealogy is advanced in real life and perhaps tried to model that.
 
Ok, but do you have any proof for that? For now it is only guessing. I will run another test soon to see if that is correct.
 
Great work! I think you should add this to Wiky.

Walen said:
I have made some more testing (Uruguay, 1914 scenario, some edits to make it easy to test). First a couple of interesting observations. Elections can take place under democracy, monarchy and con. monarchy. Dictatorships seem to be unable to run elections no matter what. Elections can obviously only take place with voting rights other than none. You can have an election even with none parties allowed (there is only one party available though). Banning parties is allowed only with right to ban and either hms government or laws by decree executive designation. If pops want to vote on a banned party (it doesn't matter if there is a second one just as good but not choosen) their votes are wasted, don't count. Setting a ruling party is allowed with any goverment besides democracy, you only need to have more than one party available (so this leaves out one_party system).

The vote_on_ideology setting doesn't seem to do anything at all. If you have evidence that it does, please prove me wrong by posting here.

Seondary issues (which are simply dominant issues pops had before the current one) do have a meaning if the dominant issue doesn't help to decide. When two parties have exactly the same support, the one that is currently in power wins, or if this doesn't help to decide, the one with lower ID.

Pops can only vote on parties that accept their culture and religion. Ruling party immigration stance (full/limited citizenship/residence/slavery) doesn't seem to affect non-national culture pops to vote (as opposed to what VickyWiki states). If a pop doesn't find a proper party, it's vote is wasted.


So here is an updated algorithm of counting votes (remember it is for 1.04, I don't posess V:R, but votes there are proportional to pop size):
1. One pop one vote (if the voting rights allow it to vote). A pop can only choose between parties that accept it's culture and religion. If a pop cannot find such, it has no party to vote for and therefore the vote is wasted (doesn't count). If a pop decides to vote on one particular party, according to the rules below, and the party is banned, the vote is wasted.
2. If a pop has the ideology that only one available party represents, vote on it.
3. If pop has the ideology that more than one available party represents choose only between them.
4. If a pop has the ideology that none of the available parties represent, search for a second or third option as follows:
conservative -> none
reactionary -> conservative
liberal -> conservative and anarcho-liberal
anarcho-liberal -> liberals -> socialist
socialist -> anarcho-liberal -> communist
communist -> socialist -> conservative
If the second option is represented by only one party, vote on it. If the second option is represented by more than one party choose only between them. If the second option is not represented by any party use a third option (if any) just as it was a second option.
5. If a pop has a dominant issue that only one of the eligible parties has as a stance, add a vote to it.
6. If a pop has a dominant issue that more than one of the eligible parties has as a stance choose only between them.
7. If a pop has a secondary issue that only one of the eligible parties has as a stance, add a vote to it.
8. If a pop has a secondary issue that more than one of the eligible parties has as a stance choose only between them.
9. If there is still more than one party left to choose between, pick the one with the lower ID (higher in the party screen).


In brief it means that the deciding factors from the most to the least important are:
ideology
dominant issue
secondary issue
ID


I also suspect that crime can affect the results. But I'd be pleased if anyone could explain that in detail. VickyWiki also states that consciousness and/or plurality affects pops voting choices. Again, anyone could explain that in detail? I think it would be worth to write an article on VickyWiki about the subject of elections so please free to add your own suggestions.
Click to expand...
 
After some further testing I must admit that OHgamer was right. As I am lazy and have deleted my earlier sterile testing enviroment, I experimented on my current game. It works as follows: When CON is 3 or less, pop has the ideology of the party that would get votes according to pop issues (even when events enforce change, ideology reverts in one day) [e.g. with <=3 CON clerk can turn conservative if it has issues similar to a conservative party that could get elected {?a first party, i.e. with the lowest ID, that has this issue}] and gets all the MIL modifiers tied to that fact. Once CON is 4 or more, pop has its own ideology (a natural one). Now, what is the effect of vote_on ideology setting. With 'yes' (starting establishment) pop votes on ideology just as my algorithm predicts. With 'no' (populism) pop votes according to issues as long as its CON is 6 or less. Plurality does not affect this.

I will try to get all this info together and update my algorithm.

One more related thought. It may be a good idea to pacify pops' CON due to overfunding social reforms and/or clergymen to keep a party in power. It can really work, but is very event sensitive. A +1 CON might mean that you fail, so it's risky but doable.
 
Walen said:
After some further testing I must admit that OHgamer was right. As I am lazy and have deleted my earlier sterile testing enviroment, I experimented on my current game. It works as follows: When CON is 3 or less, pop has the ideology of the party that would get votes according to pop issues (even when events enforce change, ideology reverts in one day) [e.g. with <=3 CON clerk can turn conservative if it has issues similar to a conservative party that could get elected {?a first party, i.e. with the lowest ID, that has this issue}] and gets all the MIL modifiers tied to that fact. Once CON is 4 or more, pop has its own ideology (a natural one). Now, what is the effect of vote_on ideology setting. With 'yes' (starting establishment) pop votes on ideology just as my algorithm predicts. With 'no' (populism) pop votes according to issues as long as its CON is 6 or less. Plurality does not affect this.

I will try to get all this info together and update my algorithm.

One more related thought. It may be a good idea to pacify pops' CON due to overfunding social reforms and/or clergymen to keep a party in power. It can really work, but is very event sensitive. A +1 CON might mean that you fail, so it's risky but doable.
Click to expand...

Hmm... that makes some sense because in games with countries were I am forced to keep clergy around because I can't get the luxury furniture to promote clerks I've noticed its easier to get the parties I wanted elected. I thought it was because of the # of parties available for the vote since they are usally lower before revolution or suffrage and all parties enabled, but it might have more to do with CON.
 
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