EUII without the big white blob.

[Ulyanov]

So I started a game with Hungary the other day just to see what happens around Central-Europe when Austria isn't in the game eating its way all over the map.

The first meal for Austria is off course the Inheritance of Burgundy-event:

#The Marriage of Anne of Burgundy#
event = {
	id = 3597
	trigger = {
		exists = FRA
		exists = HAB
		atwar = no
	}
	random = no
	country = BUR
	name = "EVENTNAME3597"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3597"
	style = 1

	date = { day = 3 month = june year = 1476 }
	offset = 0
	deathdate = { day = 4 month = june year = 1484 }

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3597A"	#Maximilian of Austria#
		command = { type = independence which = GEL }
		command = { type = independence which = FRI }
		command = { type = independence which = KLE }
		command = { type = independence which = HAN }
		command = { type = independence which = KOL }
		command = { type = independence which = LOR }
                command = { type = independence which = PFA }
                command = { type = revolt which = 334 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 334 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 335 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 335 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 336 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 336 }
                command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 376 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 379 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 382 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 383 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 384 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 386 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 387 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 405 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 407 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 408 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 409 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 410 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 411 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 412 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 419 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 420 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = FRA value = 421 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 3178 } # HAB
		command = { type = trigger which = 3320 } # FRA
	}
}

...............

#The Habsburg Inheritance of Burgundy#
event = {

	id = 3178				#Triggered by BUR3597#
	random = no
	country = HAB
	name = "EVENTNAME3178"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3178"
	style = 1

	action_a ={				#Its all mine!#
		name = "ACTIONNAME3178A"
		command = { type = inherit which = BUR }
		command = { type = stability value = 2  }
		command = { type = DIP which = 3 value = 60 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 377 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 378 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 379 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 380 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 337 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 338 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 339 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 340 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 387 }
	}
}

By playing Hungary it is easy to get rid of Austria early on. So what are the effects of the above events not occuring? HUGE! Burgundy lives on and stir up the entire playing-board. Just check this out:






England manage to stay in France because Burgundy is continuosly hacking its way from the north and east, other countries sees their opportunity to grab a bite too. Spain has taken all the southern provinces (Poitou, Guyenne, Auvergne, Cévennes, Languedoc and Provence) and Bavaria and Palatinate has also decided/realised that France is vulnerable. I (Hungary) was not involved in ANY of these wars. I just saw the opportunity when there was only Ile de France left. I made sure I got military access through Palatinate (I've had it all along thorugh Bavaria), and taking Paris was just a piece of cake!

It seems France will get its independence though, as Burgundy don't manage to crush down on its revolts (Orleanais and Berri in the screenshots). But with a very unusual capital! Yey!

Is this a common effect (France being weak) if Austria don't inherit Burgundy? Anybody else had this experience?

Cheers!
Ulyanov

[Reveilled]

Burgundy is, in my experience, a very powerful state, even when AI controlled. The inheritance event returns French provinces conquered by Burgundy to France, and liberates German minors. Prior to this event, I don't think it is uncommon for Burgundy to control quite a few French provinces and large swathes of Germany. Without the event, I think France is in trouble.

[Lachlan]

That's very interesting. I tried essentially the same thing this week, and in my game Burgundy just racked up a bunch of BB and got into a war with everyone. Austria ended up conquering most of continental Europe.

[Ayeshteni]

In most my games (based off of vanilla events), Burgundy rarely gets annexed as they are always involved in BB wars with her neighbours during the event window.

Ayeshteni

[Lachlan]

Okay, well, I thought I'd contribute some screenshots.

Basically, this is what happened in my game:

Burgundy conquered most of France, so I decided to remove the Burgundian inheritance and Crown of France events to see how they'd do. I was hoping they would become a major power; instead, they got into a massive BB war with all of Europe (Burgundy's BB: 62.1/36) and were finally force-annexed by Bourbonnais, which had become the major power in France. Austria, meanwhile, was diploannexing all the German minors, so in this game it was Germany that was consolidated and France that was chaotic---insanely chaotic, in fact, with belligerent empires rising and falling and constantly attacking each other. It reminded me strongly of Mexico from about 500 to 1500. Austria finally took the opportunity to move in and take over.

(Outside of France, if you're interested, Lithuania diploannexed Poland and Bengal acquired Morocco. Mecklenburg managed to conquer half of England and get its ruler, Interregnum of Mecklenburg, elected Emperor, but was finally diploannexed by England.)

This is Burgundy at its height, ca. 1480. (They did eventually get Paris, but had lost other provinces by then.)



This is Europe in 1819. I'm Norway.



What's interesting to me is how such similar changes can result in such different outcomes in my game and Ulyanov's. At first glance, it would appear that the difference between the two games is that Ulyanov deactivated Austria's events to inherit Hungary and Bohemia and I didn't. But I don't think that's all there is to it, because in my game Austria had already diploannexed a third of Germany before it got Bohemia and two thirds before it got Hungary. It may be that, in the long term, killing France helps Austria more than losing Burgundy hurts Austria. France has cores on all of France, so it can gain territory quickly with little BB, whereas Burgundy has the choice of either a) gaining territory slowly and getting eaten alive by Austria while it is still weak, or b) gaining territory quickly and triggering a massive BB war, which allows Austria an opening to take over.

I'd like to see what Ulyanov's Europe looks like in 1819.

[SeedSnatcher]

Those screenshots look sorta like a MP game. And what's that red at the eastern border of the OE? Russia?

[Lachlan]

Originally Posted by SeedSnatcher

And what's that red at the eastern border of the OE? Russia?

Yes...mostly defections from the Ottoman's repeated civil wars...another reason why Austria may have grown so powerful in my game. To be fair, the Ottomans did manage to conquer Persia and diploannex the (rather large) Mughals before their self-destruct spiral started.

[Ulyanov]

Originally Posted by Lachlan

What's interesting to me is how such similar changes can result in such different outcomes in my game and Ulyanov's. At first glance, it would appear that the difference between the two games is that Ulyanov deactivated Austria's events to inherit Hungary and Bohemia and I didn't. But I don't think that's all there is to it, because in my game Austria had already diploannexed a third of Germany before it got Bohemia and two thirds before it got Hungary. It may be that, in the long term, killing France helps Austria more than losing Burgundy hurts Austria. France has cores on all of France, so it can gain territory quickly with little BB, whereas Burgundy has the choice of either a) gaining territory slowly and getting eaten alive by Austria while it is still weak, or b) gaining territory quickly and triggering a massive BB war, which allows Austria an opening to take over.

I'd like to see what Ulyanov's Europe looks like in 1819.

I aggree with you! In the long term France will very likely come back as a major power as she has shields all over France. I'll post you a new screenshot when I'm at the end of my game.

As you say, killing France might help Austria, but in my game Austria won't get either Burgundy, Hungary or Bohemia. I think that will be a major setback for them that they can't retaliate from.

[Ulyanov]

Originally Posted by Ayeshteni

In most my games (based off of vanilla events), Burgundy rarely gets annexed as they are always involved in BB wars with her neighbours during the event window.

Ayeshteni

Weird! I can't recall even one game where Burgundy was not inherited by Austria. It happens every game I play.

[Lachlan]

Originally Posted by Ulyanov

I aggree with you! In the long term France will very likely come back as a major power as she has shields all over France. I'll post you a new screenshot when I'm at the end of my game.

As you say, killing France might help Austria, but in my game Austria won't get either Burgundy, Hungary or Bohemia. I think that will be a major setback for them that they can't retaliate from.

I think I'll start deactivating all of Austria's inheritances in my games, just to see what happens.

[CatKnight]

In my WATK AAR Burgundy ALMOST escaped. The inheritance event expires in 1484, but wars kept Burgundy alive until 1483. They'd been doing...tolerably well up to that point, but nothing earth shattering.

The Burgundy inheritance helped consolidate France MUCH more than it helped Austria that game. I don't know it it really helps Austrian blobness - the Low Countries are "nice to have" for Austria but they eventually lose them anyway. It's inheriting Bohemia and Hungary that turn them into uber-blob.

[jdrou]

Originally Posted by Ulyanov

Weird! I can't recall even one game where Burgundy was not inherited by Austria. It happens every game I play.

What AI aggression level do you use? That could be the difference.

[SunZyl]

Originally Posted by CatKnight

In my WATK AAR Burgundy ALMOST escaped. The inheritance event expires in 1484, but wars kept Burgundy alive until 1483. They'd been doing...tolerably well up to that point, but nothing earth shattering.

The Burgundy inheritance helped consolidate France MUCH more than it helped Austria that game. I don't know it it really helps Austrian blobness - the Low Countries are "nice to have" for Austria but they eventually lose them anyway. It's inheriting Bohemia and Hungary that turn them into uber-blob.

The thing is that the lowlands comes at the exact right time. Even though Austria loses them, it's a great help while it lasts.

[Ulyanov]

Originally Posted by CatKnight

The Burgundy inheritance helped consolidate France MUCH more than it helped Austria that game. I don't know it it really helps Austrian blobness - the Low Countries are "nice to have" for Austria but they eventually lose them anyway. It's inheriting Bohemia and Hungary that turn them into uber-blob.

I understand, but this has more to do with the benfits Austria gets from the inheritances (or France for that matter) than the external effects. I was thinking more of the general opportunities it brings for other nations.

One thing is clear: The Burgundy inheritance benefits both France and Austria. Who benefits the most is of less importance. Without the event, I got following effects: Many south-german minors is allowed to grow and prosper (like Bavaria and Palatinate in my game) due to Austria's absence. When Austria grow (especially beyond Hungary and Bohemia inheritances) they either eat them up through wars or through diploannexing (the latter is often the case for Bavaria). In my game these are allowed to live longer and to create alliances with each other. Many of the states that get their freedom from Burgundy through the event will get their freedom anyway through revolting. France is kept small or even wiped out (like in my game) for a longer period of time. All in all, it gives a more painted map when neither France or Austria are allowed to consolidate their empires.

France will certainly recover, but the german minors to the east will not be mere one-province-revolters from Austria when they (france) decide to expand, but rather medium-sized alliances of the minors that has exited the (two) first century(ies) as winners of wars between minors.

That's my humble opinion anyway.

[Ulyanov]

Originally Posted by jdrou

What AI aggression level do you use? That could be the difference.

It might be?

I always play on "normal" AI-aggressiveness.

[CatKnight]

Hm. Try a mod. I think WATK....perhaps AGCEEP....DEFINITELY EP... keep Austria from going nuts. AGCEEP (again I think...) delays the Bohemian inheritance. EP builds up the German states' AI. WATK has so many provinces there are very few 1 province German minors to mess with.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Burgundy surviving, but I think it horribly cripples France...and I think you're very much mistaken about them recovering. With France out of the picture you're removing one of the big colonizers.

Austria...I don't like the BWB either. I don't agree Low Countries really helps them though - they still have trouble DAing. If I was to try to 'fix' Austria I'd disable the Bohemian and Hungarian inheritances (or at least change the triggers so they only join if they're in serious trouble.) Historically Hungary joined Austria because the Ottomans were on the verge of taking them out. In a 'regular' game where the Ottoman AI is underperforming, they get far too many provinces for free.

Actually now that I think about it, any time the Ottoman AI is up to par, Austria tends to be...tolerable. If you play vanilla, grab Daywalker's BP ai here. It helps a whole slew of nations perform more historically.

[Zast]

The problem is the Hungarian inherritence. Severly buged. Most games, Austria gets massive fre resources and don't have to spend them on what they historically did.

[Lachlan]

Well, I tried playing a (mostly) observer game with Austria's inheritance events deactivated. They still seemed to benefit in the long run. At first, France became the richest country in Europe, with the most powerful army and navy (and a lot of colonies, because England was mostly conquered by Scotland). As time went on, though, Austria diploannexed the Alps and part of southern Germany. (Bohemia and northern Germany got annexed by Poland, which also diplo-vassalized Sweden.) Finally Austria's tech advanced far ahead of France's. France is still a lot bigger, and has a bigger army and navy, but I would be shocked if Austria didn't massacre them in a war.

I think Austria was helped by two things. First, they were further west, so they didn't have to fight the Turks. The Hungarians did that (and eventually got conquered). Second, Austria's territory in southern Germany and northern Italy was a lot richer than their usual territory in Hungary, so they were able to advance faster technologically.

On the whole, I'm not really sure losing the inheritance events hurts Austria---probably the opposite.

[Ulyanov]

Originally Posted by Lachlan

On the whole, I'm not really sure losing the inheritance events hurts Austria---probably the opposite.

Just to make things straight: I never claimed anything in one or the other direction when it comes to whether Austria benefits from these events or not. I was just curious to see how Europe would look without the hungry, expantionist Austria eating its way in all directions. What you have found out here, however, is that the inheritance events really don't have much of an impact on the phenomenon "The Big White Blob".

In my game (where Austria is not present at all and can't make an impact - events or not) Burgundy fairs well 60 years on, and France has still not revolted to independence. Both Burgundy, Spain, Portugal and England has had numerous revolts in French lands, but always manage to kill off the revolters. Burgundy no longer has any revolt risk due to nationalism, so I wonder how long it will take before France gets its independence back. I really doubt France will come back as a great power at this stage.

[Lachlan]

Originally Posted by Ulyanov

Just to make things straight: I never claimed anything in one or the other direction when it comes to whether Austria benefits from these events or not. I was just curious to see how Europe would look without the hungry, expantionist Austria eating its way in all directions.

Oh, I know. So was I.

Originally Posted by Ulyanov

What you have found out here, however, is that the inheritance events really don't have much of an impact on the phenomenon "The Big White Blob".

Maybe it's their high diplomatic ratings, letting them annex everyone.