Economy during Wartime?

TzarSamuil · 13-11-2006, 15:42

I'm studying economics right now and we had a course of lectures about the economy during the First world war
During the Great war the state(No matter which, even England) practically took control of the economy, so i think it will be good to implement this in Victoria.
When you're at you should be possible to build certain types of factories(ammonitions or steal..) and to build railroads even with laissez faire party leading the government.
Of course this should be possible after researching a proper military technology late in the game(1900 onwards)
What do you thing about this?

slugo · 13-11-2006, 15:55

that's an interesting idea, but it would only affect l-f democracies, as all others would be able to make the shift by switching parties.

Jaeger74 · 13-11-2006, 15:59

I never build new factories during war time because I want to concentrate in war only. Also I don't want to spend the money my war efforts need to build factories or railroad.

You should have secured stockpiles of needed arms by building those factories before the war already or actively buying them from world market.

TzarSamuil · 13-11-2006, 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by slugo

that's an interesting idea, but it would only affect l-f democracies, as all others would be able to make the shift by switching parties.

I think it will also affect interventionist democracies, because they can't build factories.
And i've got the impression that L-F and INT. democracies are the most common type of government in Victoria.

TzarSamuil · 13-11-2006, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaeger74

I never build new factories during war time because I want to concentrate in war only. Also I don't want to spend the money my war efforts need to build factories or railroad.

You should have secured stockpiles of needed arms by building those factories before the war already or actively buying them from world market.

Well you never know when will a war happen

And in 1914 all politicians and military men have prepared some supplies etc.. but they were far from enough.
War drains supplies very fast.

Well of course the game doesn't simulate properly this aspect also because the connection between war and economy is not so strong as it should be.

slugo · 13-11-2006, 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by TzarSamuil

I think it will also affect interventionist democracies, because they can't build factories.
And i've got the impression that L-F and INT. democracies are the most common type of government in Victoria.

you're right, it would affect int dems too, my bad.
that's one reason its good to stay con-mon if at all possible.

TzarSamuil · 13-11-2006, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by slugo

you're right, it would affect int dems too, my bad.
that's one reason its good to stay con-mon if at all possible.

Well democracies with L-F are super for industrializing so when i play i try to become democracy with L-F ruling party(or at least INT), but i would also like to have some more control over economy during war, bacause that is what happened in real life.
I came up with this idea after a game in the 1914 scenario and my CAP POPS started building luxury clothes factory

Far better for the state would have been ammo factory or steel factory...maybe

Bismark776 · 13-11-2006, 16:41

Perhaps it should be possible, not to build new factories, but to convert factories into types that build war materials. Then, when the war ends, the factories convert back to their former types. However, during conversion productivity should be zero or very low, and there should a certain percentage chance for each factory that it may remain its new type. I think that this would certainly add a fair bit of realism to the game and allow things to be more dynamic. However, this should only be made possible either by some sort of late game tech or some sort of late game event because this sort of thing occured much more in 20th century than any other period and would become an exploit that players could use to easily get factories that produce military supplies.

The RC · 14-11-2006, 02:30

The game doesn't really need to represent the wartime conversion of factories, because by and large units don't actually need war materials to function, just money... And any factory can generate that. I don't know about other players, but I don't often fight very long wars or build excessive amounts of new units during wars either, so there's not much point to haveing more war materials (and they might actually hurt the war economy by being less profitable than luxury goods etc.)

Historically, Economies shouldn't grow in wartime (Just be redirected to, well, war) Only the neutral countries profitted from the Great War, most of the main combatants, in contrast, broke the bank. As the system stands now, giving the player economic control during wartime would make long term, total war a boon to the L-F economies, when it should be a curse.

If units consumed food and drink, and ammunition while fighting, as well as used weapons and clothing etc. to reinforce, then it would be a totally different story. As it stands wartime productions conversion or economic control doesn't really have any purpose

Taybaxter · 14-11-2006, 05:26

I would personally like to see the integration of supplies (instead of just money) into the consumption of goods by infantry units. Each unit would perhaps consume a small amount of ammunition, small arms, and canned food. Artillery units would consume explosives or something.

Secondly- I would like to see the integration of economic warfare. Naval blockades need to be fixed, perhaps sinking of convoys, choices to destroy factories and RR's in occupied states (total war type of deal like Sherman's march through the south).... All distant dreams

In a few large wars I have gotten involved in I have made events to destroy factories in my states or my enemies if key provinces are occupied to better simulate this...

Palle · 14-11-2006, 10:44

There's really no point in building military factories in war-time, since you can buy everything you want in the world market, even if your enemy is the only one who builds that product.

Jaeger74 · 14-11-2006, 12:34

I second everything you said, Taybaxter.

*OHgamer* · 14-11-2006, 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taybaxter

I would personally like to see the integration of supplies (instead of just money) into the consumption of goods by infantry units. Each unit would perhaps consume a small amount of ammunition, small arms, and canned food. Artillery units would consume explosives or something.

Secondly- I would like to see the integration of economic warfare. Naval blockades need to be fixed, perhaps sinking of convoys, choices to destroy factories and RR's in occupied states (total war type of deal like Sherman's march through the south).... All distant dreams

In a few large wars I have gotten involved in I have made events to destroy factories in my states or my enemies if key provinces are occupied to better simulate this...

On the first, can't disagree more. There's already so many things you need to be concerned about in keeping the home front balanced that the last thing I'd want to have to do as a player is worry about micromanaging the consumption of individual material supplies as well for the troops at the front. That is all elided into the supplyconsumption cost for each unit, and at least for me, that is perfectly fine. If I wanted to worry about individual material supplies for each unit, I'd play HoI, but as Victoria is not, in the first instance, a war game, I think the current setup is fine.

On the second, I agree, would love to see blockades and embargos more elaborately developed further in the game engine. We have a start with the ability to choke off colonial supplies by blockading the coasts of colonies, but the tough nut to crack is affecting supply from the World Market.

On the factory destruction in rival states - hmmmm. (taking out notebook and starting to jot some ideas down)....

Gotikiller · 14-11-2006, 22:47

OHgamer if you can get Paradox to integrate Blockades/Embargoes/Factory Destruction (*Evil Grin*) It would make Victoria AMAZING!!!!

EUnderhill · 14-11-2006, 23:32

Perhaps a balance in the simplicity/realism debate could be found by increasing the supply cost for each province the unit is distant from the province from which it is recruited. This will properly make foreign wars the expensive propositions they were and encourage use of native troops in native areas. I wouldn't mind seeing reinforcements require material replacement as well (reinforcing an artillery division from 8k to 12k would require 3.33 art and sm arms, for example). I do agree that making a new good of supplies would make things a bit overcomplicated for most tastes, possibly even mine.

sirsri · 15-11-2006, 04:29

Maybe regular factories should have an option to (temporarily) convert to military supplies in war time. So if you're at war, all your factories get a little toggle to convert them. Granted a lot of things count as military supplies but I'm thinking the basics, steel, steamers, ammunition, canned goods, artillery and small arms, and then factories convert to somethat at the same tech level, with say a 10% (20%, 25%? ) efficiency penalty.

Adding supply pools would be very good. Given the economic model available the idea that a battleship would take steel steamers as maintenance rather than just money makes a lot of sense, though probably grind performance to a halt in games with a lot of units since you have to check for each supply, every day/month/week/whatever. It could probably done as a separate variable just each time a unit is created/added/removed you add remove from the per day supply consumption, but then you run into difficulty managing repairs etc... and recurring inconsistent database problems which is what happens with the save games now, though not the end of the world it is to be avoided IMO.

TzarSamuil · 15-11-2006, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by OHgamer

On the first, can't disagree more. There's already so many things you need to be concerned about in keeping the home front balanced that the last thing I'd want to have to do as a player is worry about micromanaging the consumption of individual material supplies as well for the troops at the front. That is all elided into the supplyconsumption cost for each unit, and at least for me, that is perfectly fine. If I wanted to worry about individual material supplies for each unit, I'd play HoI, but as Victoria is not, in the first instance, a war game, I think the current setup is fine.

I don't get the impression that there are so many things.I also think that economy is one of the most important parts of wars.
You can actually win any war in Victoria without even having ammo factory or small arms factory
IRL this would have impossible.
I don't think that it would be hard to implement some ammo and small arms being added when reinforcing.

Economic stagnation and economic blockades definitely need more realism

13-11-2006, 15:42	#1
TzarSamuil Second Lieutenant Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 119	Economy during Wartime? I'm studying economics right now and we had a course of lectures about the economy during the First world war During the Great war the state(No matter which, even England) practically took control of the economy, so i think it will be good to implement this in Victoria. When you're at you should be possible to build certain types of factories(ammonitions or steal..) and to build railroads even with laissez faire party leading the government. Of course this should be possible after researching a proper military technology late in the game(1900 onwards) What do you thing about this?

13-11-2006, 15:55	#2
slugo Colonel Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: freeland, pa, usa Posts: 873	that's an interesting idea, but it would only affect l-f democracies, as all others would be able to make the shift by switching parties. __________________ to alchohol, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems- Homer J Simpson secrecy begs tyranny- jubal harshaw

14-11-2006, 05:26	#10
Taybaxter Mississippi Valley Creole Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Currently New Jersey, but a St. Louisan Posts: 483	I would personally like to see the integration of supplies (instead of just money) into the consumption of goods by infantry units. Each unit would perhaps consume a small amount of ammunition, small arms, and canned food. Artillery units would consume explosives or something. Secondly- I would like to see the integration of economic warfare. Naval blockades need to be fixed, perhaps sinking of convoys, choices to destroy factories and RR's in occupied states (total war type of deal like Sherman's march through the south).... All distant dreams In a few large wars I have gotten involved in I have made events to destroy factories in my states or my enemies if key provinces are occupied to better simulate this... __________________ WritAAR of the week, July 23, 2006. Province #553/584, Nationality: Yankee, Religion: ? , Occupation:Student, Ideology: American Liberal, Issues: Anti-Clerical/Interventionism, Cash Reserves: $150 Consciousness:9.25 (Books: +.20, Current Party: +.60, Internet: +.40, Location: +.50). Militancy: 1.0 (Ruling Party: -2.00, Religious Right: +2.00) “Come, come, my conservative friend, wipe the dew off your spectacles, and see that the world is moving” Elizabeth Cady Stanton

14-11-2006, 23:32	#15
EUnderhill cougar bait Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,065	Perhaps a balance in the simplicity/realism debate could be found by increasing the supply cost for each province the unit is distant from the province from which it is recruited. This will properly make foreign wars the expensive propositions they were and encourage use of native troops in native areas. I wouldn't mind seeing reinforcements require material replacement as well (reinforcing an artillery division from 8k to 12k would require 3.33 art and sm arms, for example). I do agree that making a new good of supplies would make things a bit overcomplicated for most tastes, possibly even mine. __________________ .

13-11-2006, 15:59	#3
Jaeger74 Major Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Suomi Posts: 694	I never build new factories during war time because I want to concentrate in war only. Also I don't want to spend the money my war efforts need to build factories or railroad. You should have secured stockpiles of needed arms by building those factories before the war already or actively buying them from world market.

13-11-2006, 16:41	#8
Bismark776 First Lieutenant Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 258	Perhaps it should be possible, not to build new factories, but to convert factories into types that build war materials. Then, when the war ends, the factories convert back to their former types. However, during conversion productivity should be zero or very low, and there should a certain percentage chance for each factory that it may remain its new type. I think that this would certainly add a fair bit of realism to the game and allow things to be more dynamic. However, this should only be made possible either by some sort of late game tech or some sort of late game event because this sort of thing occured much more in 20th century than any other period and would become an exploit that players could use to easily get factories that produce military supplies.

14-11-2006, 02:30	#9
The RC Front Page Special Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 531	The game doesn't really need to represent the wartime conversion of factories, because by and large units don't actually need war materials to function, just money... And any factory can generate that. I don't know about other players, but I don't often fight very long wars or build excessive amounts of new units during wars either, so there's not much point to haveing more war materials (and they might actually hurt the war economy by being less profitable than luxury goods etc.) Historically, Economies shouldn't grow in wartime (Just be redirected to, well, war) Only the neutral countries profitted from the Great War, most of the main combatants, in contrast, broke the bank. As the system stands now, giving the player economic control during wartime would make long term, total war a boon to the L-F economies, when it should be a curse. If units consumed food and drink, and ammunition while fighting, as well as used weapons and clothing etc. to reinforce, then it would be a totally different story. As it stands wartime productions conversion or economic control doesn't really have any purpose

14-11-2006, 10:44	#11
Palle Major Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 787	There's really no point in building military factories in war-time, since you can buy everything you want in the world market, even if your enemy is the only one who builds that product.

14-11-2006, 12:34	#12
Jaeger74 Major Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Suomi Posts: 694	I second everything you said, Taybaxter.

14-11-2006, 22:47	#14
Gotikiller Captain Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 483	OHgamer if you can get Paradox to integrate Blockades/Embargoes/Factory Destruction (Evil Grin) It would make Victoria AMAZING!!!!

15-11-2006, 04:29	#16
sirsri First Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: London Ontario, Canada Posts: 224	Maybe regular factories should have an option to (temporarily) convert to military supplies in war time. So if you're at war, all your factories get a little toggle to convert them. Granted a lot of things count as military supplies but I'm thinking the basics, steel, steamers, ammunition, canned goods, artillery and small arms, and then factories convert to somethat at the same tech level, with say a 10% (20%, 25%? ) efficiency penalty. Adding supply pools would be very good. Given the economic model available the idea that a battleship would take steel steamers as maintenance rather than just money makes a lot of sense, though probably grind performance to a halt in games with a lot of units since you have to check for each supply, every day/month/week/whatever. It could probably done as a separate variable just each time a unit is created/added/removed you add remove from the per day supply consumption, but then you run into difficulty managing repairs etc... and recurring inconsistent database problems which is what happens with the save games now, though not the end of the world it is to be avoided IMO.