United States Colonial Flag

LCA · 27-10-2006, 20:46

Did the US, prior to independance, ever have a British colonial flag like Canada or others in the Commonwealth? Particularly one with a Union Jack in the upper left corner?

I have never seen one if so, but was curious.

BTW - First post in the history forum. Hi all.

Rocketman · 27-10-2006, 21:39

The Grand Union flag.

"At the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776, this was the most commonly flown flag, and was present at the naming of the country, "the United States of America," on September 9, 1776. The flag was the official flag for the beginning of the American Revolution. " - from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Union_Flag <-the wiki article.

In the time before the War for Independence, though, I doubt there was a flag for the 13 colonies, mostly because they weren't 'united' like Canada was. They were 13 separate colonies.

StephenT · 28-10-2006, 15:05

According to here the flag shown by Rocketman was first used on 1 January 1776 by Washington; it was basically the British Red Ensign with white stripes added. Before that, there was no flag for all the colonies. (And remember that there were more than 13 British colonies in North America - it's just that 13 of them rebelled while the others (in Canada, Bermuda, etc) stayed loyal).

LCA · 28-10-2006, 21:28

Fascinating stuff - I had no idea. Interesting that every school child has heard of, or seen, the "don't tread on me" flag but not this one.

It's actually a great looking flag.

ComradeOm · 28-10-2006, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by LCA

It's actually a great looking flag.

You really think so? To my mind its hideous

HMS Enterprize · 29-10-2006, 00:33

Its a grand flag. A true reminder of what could have been the most unassailable empire to ever grace the earth.

I firmly believe no power would have even contemplated war/inter-state agression with the British Empire and her allies had the colonies stayed with us, it had the potential to be a great peace-keeping agent.

LCA · 29-10-2006, 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComradeOm

You really think so? To my mind its hideous

It looks better in the flesh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by HMS Enterprize

Its a grand flag. A true reminder of what could have been the most unassailable empire to ever grace the earth.

I firmly believe no power would have even contemplated war/inter-state agression with the British Empire and her allies had the colonies stayed with us, it had the potential to be a great peace-keeping agent.

Independance, at some point, was a historical inevitability. However, the Queen could do no worse than the current President. I wonder how history might have changed had America peacefully obtained independance and been a part of the Commonwealth.

God Save the Queen!

ComradeOm · 29-10-2006, 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by LCA

Independance, at some point, was a historical inevitability. However, the Queen could do no worse than the current President. I wonder how history might have changed had America peacefully obtained independance and been a part of the Commonwealth.

I doubt it would have made a difference. The US would have soon outstripped its mother nation in almost every respect anyway.

Gordy · 29-10-2006, 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComradeOm

I doubt it would have made a difference. The US would have soon outstripped its mother nation in almost every respect anyway.

Who knows?

Canada and Australia have yet to do so. If the USA hadn't become independent then its settlement patterns would have been entirely different.

They may never have 'grabbed' parts of Mexico, Louisiana, Alaska, Hawaii or the West.

Gordy · 29-10-2006, 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HMS Enterprize

Its a grand flag. A true reminder of what could have been the most unassailable empire to ever grace the earth.

I firmly believe no power would have even contemplated war/inter-state agression with the British Empire and her allies had the colonies stayed with us, it had the potential to be a great peace-keeping agent.

Again this is rather based on everything else staying the same (which it would not have). A loyal Ontario came out of the resettlement of American loyalists and the war of 1812. In keeping the US, we may have lost Canada.

As I said in my post above, I don't think the US would be as powerful today if it had not succesfully rebelled.

HMS Enterprize · 29-10-2006, 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordy

Again this is rather based on everything else staying the same (which it would not have). A loyal Ontario came out of the resettlement of American loyalists and the war of 1812. In keeping the US, we may have lost Canada.

Quite possible, although it most likely would not have affected the balance of power in any great way if Ontario led to the loss of canada.

Quote:

As I said in my post above, I don't think the US would be as powerful today if it had not succesfully rebelled.

Again quite possible but even if only the 13 colonies remained with the Empire, given the growth possibilities, I could see the Empire still being supremely powerful.

Gordy · 29-10-2006, 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by HMS Enterprize

Quite possible, although it most likely would not have affected the balance of power in any great way if Ontario led to the loss of canada.

It might if an independent Canada was allied to France and was able to drive Westwards and capture the land that was in our reality taken by the USA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HMS Enterprize

Again quite possible but even if only the 13 colonies remained with the Empire, given the growth possibilities, I could see the Empire still being supremely powerful.

Greater British emigration to the US would have meant fewer emigrants to the other colonies.

I don't doubt that the 13 colonies would have added to British power but I think people exagerate the difference they would have made.

HobbesDJ · 29-10-2006, 22:39

Wow, that sure is an ugly flag!

HMS Enterprize · 29-10-2006, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by HobbesDJ

Wow, that sure is an ugly flag!

Be silent! Its great!

Much better than all those ugly, rebellious stars..errgh

AllThat4Nothing · 30-10-2006, 17:33

There was no official flag to represent all the British colonies in North America (well specifically what is the US now) collectively. Only when the concept of independence was conceived, and by that time the local powers that be were already considering themselves severed from the empire.

And by the way the flag shown earlier (grand union flag) is ugly as all get out. Thank God for Betsy Ross LOL...

LCA · 30-10-2006, 23:22

Okay, the vote is in and the Grand Union flag is once again consigned to the trash bin of history. The more I look at it the more I tend to agree. It is still interesting as a historical oddity though.

27-10-2006, 20:46	#1
LCA Second Lieutenant Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Miami Posts: 101	United States Colonial Flag Did the US, prior to independance, ever have a British colonial flag like Canada or others in the Commonwealth? Particularly one with a Union Jack in the upper left corner? I have never seen one if so, but was curious. BTW - First post in the history forum. Hi all.

29-10-2006, 00:33	#6
HMS Enterprize On loan to the C.S Navy Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Great Britain Posts: 4,325	Its a grand flag. A true reminder of what could have been the most unassailable empire to ever grace the earth. I firmly believe no power would have even contemplated war/inter-state agression with the British Empire and her allies had the colonies stayed with us, it had the potential to be a great peace-keeping agent. __________________ NEW! Stable test version of Harry Turtledove's 'How Few Remain' & 'American Empire' mod for Victoria Revolutions now available. Get it HERE Settling Accounts mod v3.0 for HOI2: DD. Get it HERE

30-10-2006, 17:33	#15
AllThat4Nothing On Probation Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In a "Chu" in a desolate, sun scorched hellhole Posts: 1,009	There was no official flag to represent all the British colonies in North America (well specifically what is the US now) collectively. Only when the concept of independence was conceived, and by that time the local powers that be were already considering themselves severed from the empire. And by the way the flag shown earlier (grand union flag) is ugly as all get out. Thank God for Betsy Ross LOL... Last edited by AllThat4Nothing; 30-10-2006 at 19:29.

30-10-2006, 23:22	#16
LCA Second Lieutenant Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Miami Posts: 101	Okay, the vote is in and the Grand Union flag is once again consigned to the trash bin of history. The more I look at it the more I tend to agree. It is still interesting as a historical oddity though. __________________ Lane "Coming home from very lonely places, all of us go a little mad: whether from great personal success, or just an all-night drive, we are the sole survivors of a world no one else has ever seen." -John le Carre

27-10-2006, 21:39	#2
Rocketman Banned Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: The Moon Posts: 1,696	The Grand Union flag. "At the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776, this was the most commonly flown flag, and was present at the naming of the country, "the United States of America," on September 9, 1776. The flag was the official flag for the beginning of the American Revolution. " - from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Union_Flag <-the wiki article. In the time before the War for Independence, though, I doubt there was a flag for the 13 colonies, mostly because they weren't 'united' like Canada was. They were 13 separate colonies.

28-10-2006, 15:05	#3
StephenT Bored now. Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: London, England Posts: 4,787	According to here the flag shown by Rocketman was first used on 1 January 1776 by Washington; it was basically the British Red Ensign with white stripes added. Before that, there was no flag for all the colonies. (And remember that there were more than 13 British colonies in North America - it's just that 13 of them rebelled while the others (in Canada, Bermuda, etc) stayed loyal).

28-10-2006, 21:28	#4
LCA Second Lieutenant Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Miami Posts: 101	Fascinating stuff - I had no idea. Interesting that every school child has heard of, or seen, the "don't tread on me" flag but not this one. It's actually a great looking flag.

29-10-2006, 22:39	#13
HobbesDJ First Lieutenant Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Near Ballmer, Merlin Posts: 241	Wow, that sure is an ugly flag!