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cdcdrr

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Dec 10, 2004
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This is the first mod I made. It's intended to change a few things about the Dutch to hopefully portray them a bit more accurately. I've added model pictures, changed the names of models, redid the tech teams, re-arranged the ministers. It's still just version 1.00 and I hope I can fine tune it further, but the changes I did feel like the bare necesities right now. Instructions contained inside the zip file in a readme, along with further information and notes.

I'd also like to hear suggestions, especially on things that I feel uncertain about myself. If someone can answer questions that I have or support this mod in their own way, it will be appreciated. But for now here's where the file is located currently:

http://www.savefile.com/files/44779
 
And here I'll pose some questions and suggestions of my own right now. Please do discuss or offer criticism. I feel like I could use all the feedback I can get, even if they're just flames.

--On Tech teams--

I gave Fokker the Rocketry specialisation, based on the post-war Fokker F.26 design. But is that good enough a reason? I wanted to distinguish Fokker from Koolhoven more. But wouldn't rocketry research make the Netherlands too powerful? There isn't such a strong historical base for the rocketry specialisation, and I can't decide if this is such a good way to make the airplane research teams smarter.

I removed Philips NatLab from the game and gave their specialisations to the mother company. But a side effect is that Philips is now very proficient at making Tank Destroyers, Mobile Artillery, etc. Is this really a good idea? While DAF would still be considered the first choice in this field, Philips is now equal in researching support vehicles. I've thought about replacing Technical Efficiency with Nuclear Engineering (they made X-rays) but that is stretching things, and brings the Dutch one step closer to 'the Bomb'.

Despite my improvements, Frits Zernike is still only good for electric computer research (of the Secret Weapons type). Before, he wasn't even good at that. Is there a way to make the man more useful? It doesn't have to be much, Zernike was merely a scientist, and certainly not of the same calibre as Oppenheimer. But I was wondering if he could be put to use researching computing machines or coding/decoding devices.

I wanted to portray Petrus Best more accurately as a doctrine researcher, but it cost the Netherlands their bomber doctrine research. So I added Ludolph van Oyen, about the only person who's name could be associated with bombing doctrines IMHO. Did I do it right?

--On Leaders--

Furstner; should he or shouldn't he be an Old Guard? In a way, he wasn't a real leader as he led the Dutch fleet from behind his desk instead of standing on the bridge. That is no way to gain combat experience. But he is said to have been very intelligent and not as narrowminded as your average Old Guard. And in his own way he always wanted his navy to be active (and thanks to mutual respect between English and Dutch navies, his ships got preferential treatment upon arrival).

Would it be fancy to add Prince Bernhard as a leader? He hold many (honorary) ranks and was the most prolific member of the royal family in exile. He had a military education, as was still customary for German nobles. If he should be added, I reckon he'd make an inspiring air leader, but also an army leader. He had a title in the navy (Vice Admiral I think it was) but he was not nearly as well established in naval affairs. Should he be included?

--Units and Models--

I could not get good pictures of the Koolhoven FK-59 torpedobomber, Schelde S.21 fighter, Roofdier-class destroyer, or the planned Battlecruisers. If somebody has (surprisingly) anything I could use, please help me out. I recon I could use a Scharnhorst-class picture for the Battlecruiser though.

Likewise, if somebody has reliable information of the Battlecruisers (named "Gouden Leeuw" in the mod since I came across this name) please share it with me. It's rather hard to get info on a ship that never was. I also heard something about Battleships for the Dutch. Information on this is also welcome.

Could there be a Carrier class named Karel Doorman? The Dutch bought two (light) aircraft carriers which where named after Doorman, but neither where build in the Netherlands. So it might not be very historical. And even if, what level would it probably be?

--Ministers--

In my mod, I had to remove the Minister of Security Cornelis van Geelkerken as a Paternal Autocrat in 1945 because he was a clone of the original Fascist Geelkerken (in the Doomsday scenario at least). Does anyone know why he had an evil twin because of my mod, and is there a way to get around this?

I added Ludolph van Oyen as an air minister (he's becoming rather famous in my mod isn't he? :rofl: ). This was done because I couldn't let Douw van der Krap stay Fascist. It just didn't feel right with someone who spend the entire war hatching plans to escape Nazi prisons, refuse cooperation with them and even led Polish resistance against the oppressors. But aren't there any true NSB'ers who could serve this role?

I will try to look up some information on Communists myself, but every bit of help is welcome.

--Scenario--

Should I add airfields? Soerabaja had a floatplane base, there where (abandoned) airfields in Limburg, Gelderland, Noord Brabant and Groningen, but should they really be represented in the game?

Should land forts be added to repressent Fortress Holland (Afsluitdijk, Peel linie, Grebbebergs, etc to)?

What would the true relationships be like? I know at the time, the Netherlands truly disliked the English for the Boer Wars and the blockade against Germany. I figure the positive relations are way off. The Belgian relationships should also be significantly lowered. Belgium tried to claim the Dutch southern provinces despite them remaining neutral throughout WWI. Their refusal to coordinate a defense strategy to cover the Dutch defense's Achilles heel did not help either. France should probably be at least higher than the UK due to the overinflated image of French strategy and doctrine, and their powerful tank army.


Any ideas, corrections or criticism is welcome. I'm trying to improve this little brainfart of mine as much as possible and the users and critics of this mod are truly the only people who can make it an succesful endeavour. Please please do not hesitate to share any ideas or suggestions. I aim to improve.
 
Sounds cool I always wanted to play a game as the Netherlands!
 
hey i'm from holland to :) some of the model are not correct i found it out to . prins bernhard sounds good. i know a good (dutch site) where you can find more information about weapons our country used during the war www.go2war2.nl . i'll take a look at your modications when i got some time
but a good idea this dutch improvment pack :)
 
oh i forgot the HrMs karel doorman was bought from the american after the war i think it was atleast 5th class of aircariers it wasn't a lite carier but normal/ about the 2 light cariers look at the site i have given. there are the two names look at the countries option and from there you will be guided. it where converted merchants. and landforts being placed in the in game provinces of eindhoven (1) utrecht (2) roterdam (1) and amsterdam (2) and only an aribase in rotterdam not in the other provinces maybe utrecht. if you need more help with info just put it here and i'll try to help
 
Dutch battlecruisers

http://www.chuckhawks.com/battlecruisers.htm


The next (and last) two classes of battlecruisers I will take a brief look at were not completed because WW II intervened. They were the Dutch and Russian battlecruisers, both approved in 1940. The Dutch ships will be examined first.

Before WWII the Dutch East Indies were a major world source of strategic raw materials, especially oil. They produced about ten times the amount of petroleum every year that Japan produced. The Japanese coveted this Dutch colony, and, of course, back in Holland, the Government knew it.

Lacking the economic base to build a fleet big enough to defeat the Imperial Japanese Navy, the Dutch realized that, in all likelihood, war with Japan would include the U.S. or UK or both as their allies. The Dutch naval effort was therefore directed toward a small high quality fleet, capable of holding the line in the Western Pacific until augmented by the naval might of their allies.

The Netherlands has a centuries-long tradition as a seafaring nation, and unlike most small nations, they have traditionally built their own warships, including some of the most advanced ships anywhere. Dutch ships were unusually sophisticated, particularly in the areas of gunnery and fire control, where three axis, stabilized, remotely controlled equipment had been developed.

They had little experience in the construction of very large warships, however, so when it was decided to construct a class of battlecruisers for their East Indies Squadron that were three and a half times larger than any previous Dutch cruiser, they sought the help of their German neighbors for some of the early design work.

The new ships were intended to balance the very powerful Japanese heavy cruisers, which were far superior to the smaller light cruisers of the East Indies Squadron.

The resulting ships were very similar to the original (battlecruiser) plans for the Scharnhorst class. They were identical in main battery and beam.

The Dutch revised the initial design to incorporate different boilers, as they (correctly) regarded the German type as overly complicated and difficult to maintain. Along with different boilers came more powerful machinery for greater speed, which required two funnels and a lengthened hull. They also sloped the side armor to increase its effectiveness without increasing weight. Their specifications follow (from Conway's):

Displacement:
29,750t standard

Dimensions:
777ft 8in wl x 98ft 5in x 25ft 7in

Machinery:
4-shaft geared turbines, 8 Werkspoor boilers,
180,000shp = 34kts. Oil 2900t

Armor:
Belt 9in, bulkheads 9in, barbettes 10in, turrets,
10in-4in, torpedo bulkheads 1.6in, decks 4in+1.2in

Armament:
9-11in/45 (3x3), 12-4.7in/45 (6x2), 14-40mm AA
(7x2), 8-20mm AA (8x1)

Complement:
1,050



The unconfirmed proposed names of these ships: Gouden Leeuw (Golden Lion), Eendracht (Unity), Van Oranje (Prince William of Orange). As mentioned above, these three battlecruisers were authorized in 1940, for completion in 1944. The ship yards that would have constructed them were Rotterdamsche Droogdok Maatschappy, Wilton Feyenoord, and Amsterdamsche Droogdok Maatschappy. They were never completed, because the German occupation of The Netherlands halted all work on these ships.

Visually, they looked like Scharnhorst, only with two stacks. The outboard side formed a slight bulge past the base of the belt. They were to be true battlecruisers, armored and rated as such, not battleships like the Scharnhorst class.

Like other battlecruisers, their main job was to overpower heavy cruisers. They had many general similarities to the contemporary American Alaskas, and Japanese B 64 type. Except for their short range, they would have been valuable ships in the Pacific War.

So having a picture of the Schranhorst isn't that weird

Here is another site, which has artist conception of the battlecruisers
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNNeth_11-545.htm
 
maybe on the site of the dutch airforce museum
there they have some pics don't know if they have the koolhoven
i'll take a look
 
I recognise those two sites about the Battlecruisers. Good thing you posted easy links Veldmaarschalk. I also saw one site which had information on them, but it was mostly fictional as it presented a what-if scenario and one of two cruisers was equiped with planes and a short launch strip. Neverminding that, I still wonder if Gouden Leeuw sounds alright for a class name. I'd imagine that Eendracht would be more appropriate.

I think I'll go ahead with adding Prins Berhard as a land and air leader. It's a shame he aquired relevant ranks only late in the war. He won't even be an Air Commodore before 1941. Obviously, a bit late. I estimate skill to be 1, and max skill 4. I'm not sure at what year he should attain ranks. It won't matter for his air career, Mj General is good enough for that. On land Lt General is preferable, but historically he became a Mj General in 1942, followed by Lt General a year later. Should I do it historically? Also what talents would he have (if any)? I suppose Night Flyer and Carpet Bomber are good since that was part of the Dutch Squadron's missions.

I think I'll take a deep look at http://www.waroverholland.nl/ to learn more about fortifications in the Netherlands. I wonder if Friesland deserves a land fort, since there where defenses at that end of the Afsluitdijk. Or maybe the river crossing penalty is already enough.
 
there was a fortification in friesland but it wasn't that great the germans had no trouble take it. so just don't give friesland a landfortress. oh ja the fortifications was known als de wonsstelling.
 
about the hawker hurricane mark 2, at the end of 1941 24 of these plane's arrived at java, these plane's were first ment for the RAF but the dutch used them to from to figter groups of each 12 plane's. so i made a mistake about that holland never used hawker huricanes mark 2. these planes were fighting fit on 16 of febuari 1942
 
and i found out some more about the cariers, there were to so called MAC ships, the macoma and gadila, these are merchantes converted with a flightdeck, after the war from 1946 until 1948 the dutch had a former british escort carier nairana it served under the dutch as the karel doorman.
 
and the ship i was first talking about was first known as Venerable. the dutch used it until 1968 when it was sold to the argentinians. it was of the british Colossus class. it was build in 1943. here is information ( in dutch) about it http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hr._Ms._Karel_Doorman
it should be enoug info about the dutch cariers i think
 
I no longer use the Hawker Hurricanes for a model name since there are enough Dutch planes whose names can be used. Like the Fokker D.XXI which did quite well versus bombers and transports. I suppose you could have prevented the bombing of Rotterdam with those if they weren't so horrendously outnumbered. I also used the Koolhoven FK-55 in a what-if sense. If it had been succesfully completed as planned initially it would have been a remarkable plane even into the 40's. But I think they just ran into technical problems that just couldn't be solved at that time. I would have been a better plane than the Koolhoven FK-58 even before it was completely abandoned.

I think the Wonsstelling could be worth it, since it was actually only a part of the Kornwederzand kazemat. From what I read it did what it was build to do: cover retreating forces and break up German attacks. All of the attacks against it failed. Five reconaisance units fled immediately upon encouter, with the fifth only delaying until night to avoid drawing attention from the artillery. Germany's artillery trains couldn't get past one of the sabotaged bridges, which meant they could not concentrate their larger guns on the fortification. The bombs of the Stukas were inadequate against the cement of Kornwederzand. And the light artillery of the Germans could be retaliated against from the line itself. There was also a gunship nearby which further disrupted Germany's assault by making them believe that its naval gunfire was coming directly from the fort itself, making it seem far more advanced than the Germans believed.

Kornwederzand thus seems about right for a level 1 or 2 fort in Friesland. But what I'd like to know is when all these fortifications were build. I don't want to just insert land forts for the 1936 scenario of they didn't exist yet, and weren't even under construction. If someone has the dates on when construction was started and when they were ready (or at least when you could consider them to be useable) I'd like to know them.

About the carriers. I think that means they are both Light Carriers. Is it worth naming a Light Carrier model when none of them are currently named in the game?
 
you could call the 3rd light carier version the karel doorman class. i'm not sure but the work on the grebbelinie started in 1939 it was mostly trench with some kazematen and pillboxes. some say it still wasn't entirly ready when germans invaded holland.