Alternative History

[Skarion]

I am working on a alternative history scenario for HoI2: DD named Eternal Scandinavia.

HISTORY
The history of this alternative history is like this:


Fourteenth century

In the 14th century Rikardis of Sweden, daughter of Albrecht of Mecklenburg, married into the Danish royal family, which turned over the powerconcentration of Scandinavia upon Sweden after Margarethe died suddenly in 1396.


Fifthteenth century

Even though Norway stayed calmly in the union, Danish nobles tried to interrupt the union under most of the 15th century, especielly while Sweden was in war against the duch yof Novgorod.


Sixteenth century

At the start of the 16th century after a invasion of the Hanseatic League, the rebellious Danes pleaded for Swedish-Norwegian help. A help which they recieved.

At the final victory of the united forces from Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark finaly drove out the armies of the Hanseatic league, Denmark agreed to the current king Christian I's terms on a full and complete annexation of Denmark into the realms of Sweden.

In 1524 Christian I's recolonised Greenland and started a colonisation in current Canada while also expeditions onto western North America started, the forst postal organisation was formed and Protestantism was spread through the union.

Novgorod was mainly crushed between Sweden and Muscowy and on the terms that most of the land connected to the ice sea was to be Swedish land, and the rich center of trade, the city of Novgorod itself, would be turned over to Muscowy. Muscowy turned itself into Russia in the 1580:s as of the fall of Byzantium and the decline of the Golden Horde.

With formation of Russia, Riga and other cities of the former Teutonic order asked for Swedish protection from the Russians and Polish hordes, which they recieved.


Seventeenth century

As of the problems of having the capital of the union in Stockholm, a city which was located far from everything of importance, the capital was moved a newly formed city at the bay of Älvsborg's fortress.

The comming years the conflicts in Northern Germany was too strong and by the promise of economical support from France, England and the newly formed Netherlands, Sweden interferred into the religious wars.

The war was fierce, but the Habsburg commander Tilly was too fierce and he succeeded to force himself into the lands of Jylland before the emperor fired Tilly and also that France declared war on the Habsburgs, turned the way of the war.

After almost thirty years of war, peace was concluded in 1646 with the rich areas of Holstein and Bremen were to be turned over to Sweden and a freedom of faith was to implemented in whole of Germany.

At the end of the 17th century France came into war against the Habsburgs, England the the Netherlands. France pleaded for Swedish help, and soon Sweden moved their forces into Germany once again.

The first target was Brandenburg, Habsburg's ally. With supplies to be able to be sent through Brandenburg Swedish forces would be able to move through Bohemia and maybe even into the lands of Austria, the heart of the Habsburg empire.

The invasion of Brandenburg was a utter failure with the Swedish commanders refusing to cooperate, which made Sweden loose a battle there they had four better equipped soldiers for each German.

With the fall of the Swedish army, both the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and Russia soon declared war on Sweden.

Even though of Swedish failures, France had been able to reach Amsterdam and forced the Netherlands and England into surrendering and turning over colonies in North America unto Sweden and France. But while France still needed Sweden in Germany, they quickly agreed with peace with Russia and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with Sweden surrendering their baltic and Novgorodian provinces in exchange for peace.

Even if Sweden felt betrayed they still agreed to the peace and sent in troops into Germany.

After some more years of war, in 1697 peace was finally concluded with smaller gains by Sweden.


Eighteenth century

For Sweden the foreign politics were almost completly forgotten and only smaller rebellions in Bremen was the only problem Sweden faced while it continued it work of colonising North America.


Nineteenth century

In the nineteenth century the Spanish empire turned bancrupt, and to try to get a handle of the nation Spain let the rebellions in the new world run free with the creation of the empire of Mexico, the empire of Brazil and many other empires and republics to be created in the north and south America.

The duchy of Prussia formed Germany and got itself in plenty of wars with almost all major players except Scandinavia.

Russia declared war on Sweden in 1843 and the war ended with a Swedish defeat at the battle of Riga, there over twenty thousend Swedish soldiers were captured by the Russians. When peace was concluded Finland was turned over to Russia.

As the current tzar Nikolai wanted to turn Finland into a part of Russia he quickly sent in forces, forced Russian onto the Finns and put fines on anyone speaking Finnish in public (Even though both the Swedish and Russian languages were allowed).

At the end of the 19th century, Spain had for some extent fixed their economical problems and went to war with the rebells in the new world.


Twentienth century


After years of prosperity, with smaller wars in Asia, by the example of the Bismarck diplomacy the world was split up between two alliances.

The entente: England, France and Russia.
The Central Powers: Scandinavia (Sweden), Germany (Prussia), the dualmonarchy of Habsburg-Hungary (Austria) and the Ottoman Empire.

In 1914 the war started, a war which Spanish (Spain was still buisy in wars in South and North America at this time, so they stayed neutral) reporters had written to be unavoidable, even if most of Europe though a war was impossible as of that no one would ever again take the chance as of the costs of a war would be.

The war started of that the dual-monarchy of Habsburg-Hungary declared war on Serbia after Serbian terrorist attacks.

Russia quickly intervened on Serbia's side, with the rest of the entente joining the war against the dual-monarchy. As soon as France joined the war Germany and Scandinavia declared war on the entente. With this the World War One had officialy started.


World War One

The war was slow, with Russia, the Ottoman empire and the dualmonarchy falling in domestical collapse while the western front stood still.

In 1917 the communist rebellions which had been rolling in Russia from 1915 forced the Russian government to agree on peace with the Central powers with Finland to be once again returned to Scandinavia, parts of the Russian colony in Canada would be turned over to Scandinavia, with the baltic states to regain their freedom and Poland to once again be created and halved between Germany and the independent Polish kingdom.

Scandinavia succeeded throwing out British troops from North America and Germany was at the gates of Paris after they had annexed Belguim and moved north of the defended French borders, the entente had to surrender in 1919 with accepting Scandinavian gains in North America and the gains in the war against Russia. The annexation of Belguim was also made official. Colonies in Africa was to be given over to Germany and war intemedies would be given over to the Central powers yearly the following ten years as to support the war against rebellions in the dual-monarchy and in the Ottoman empire.


The Years Between

In 1921 the communists celebrated victory in Russia with the formation of the USSR. Soon the communist reformation of Russia started.

The monarchs of the dual-monarchy of Habsburg-Hungary was once again able to return to Vienna in 1923 after German troops were able to capture the city from the rebells.

The Ottoman Empire was finally freed from rebellions in 1924 after bloodbathes had been occuring all over the empire.

In England and France fascist parties got into power and they soon finallised a alliance with Spain (Which had finally aquired peace as the last government in South-america had become puppified).

The Central Powers rebellions had stopped to a large extent, but communist terrorism was active in most areas, with even small communist factions rose up against the Scandinavian government in Norrland and Finland, which ended with bloody battles with the national gardes.


__________________________________________-




With this I need help with borders and to make the history more fit to reality as how it would be in 1936.

Current borders as I have done yet:



Europe



Africa



North America



My questions:
As Belguim is rather going to be developed into Wallonia, are the borders else correct in Europe?

Are the colonies that Germany, Austria and the Ottoman Empire grabbed in Africa likely?

How likely would a Mexican expansion in North America?

How would Spain split up South America to keep them in check?

Would India become independent by 1936?

Would any changes been made on how Russia developed in central Asia?


Oh, and my last question:
If the Habsburg empire survived 1919, would they be built up by individual Hungarian kingdom and a Austrian empire (But the Hungarians be made puppets of Austria) as after HoI2 model?
Or should they be made into 1 Austrian empire or 1 Habsburgian empire?

[Veldmaarschalk]

Originally Posted by Skarion

My questions:
1) As Belguim is rather going to be developed into Wallonia, are the borders else correct in Europe?

2) Are the colonies that Germany, Austria and the Ottoman Empire grabbed in Africa likely?

3)How likely would a Mexican expansion in North America?

4)How would Spain split up South America to keep them in check?

5)Would India become independent by 1936?

6)Would any changes been made on how Russia developed in central Asia?


Oh, and my last question:
7)If the Habsburg empire survived 1919, would they be built up by individual Hungarian kingdom and a Austrian empire (But the Hungarians be made puppets of Austria) as after HoI2 model?
Or should they be made into 1 Austrian empire or 1 Habsburgian empire?

1. What side did Italy fight on ? If it fought on the Entente side it would also have lost Lombardia (Milan) to Austria. If it stayed neutral but was forced to cede Veneto to Austria it might have been compensated with Savoye, Nice and Corsica (all three from France)

Is Lithuania independent ? Or part of Hungary (it has the same colour) ? If it is an independent Lithuania then it would have the area just east of it also, the Wilno/Vilnius area

Albania wouldn't have existed most likely, maybe given to the Ottoman Empire or to Austria

2) Is Libya independent ? Or a colony of Italy ?

The Germans also had a colony in western Africa, Togo, I miss that one on the map

South-Jemen and Kuwait would have been gained by the Ottomans

3) With no USA, that could have happened, for a very short period the region up untill the Misissipi was part of Spain untill the Frence forced them to hand over what was to become Lousiana (the region France sold to the USA not the state)

4) Vice-royalties

5) Yes

6) Maybe an independent Central Asian Soviet Republic could have survived

7) How did they become separated ? Austria-Hungary would most likely have stayed one state.

[Skarion]

Thanks for the answers!

mandead:

4. Into a Viceroy system (a sort of quasi-republican federation loyal to the Crown or Republic, depending which you have in place in Spain) loyal to Madrid.

You think the borders in South America would stay the same or what nations/borders do you think Spain would create?

5. If it had the opportunity, yes.

Do you think that now when Britain have lost WW1 and have recieved a lot of problems in their former colonies, would that be enough opportunity to break for freedom?




Veldmaarschalk:

1. What side did Italy fight on ? If it fought on the Entente side it would also have lost Lombardia (Milan) to Austria. If it stayed neutral but was forced to cede Veneto to Austria it might have been compensated with Savoye, Nice and Corsica (all three from France)

It fought on the Entente side. I will add Lombardia to Austria. Cheers!

Is Lithuania independent ? Or part of Hungary (it has the same colour) ? If it is an independent Lithuania then it would have the area just east of it also, the Wilno/Vilnius area

Independent. Will add the Wilno Vilnius area. Cheers!

Albania wouldn't have existed most likely, maybe given to the Ottoman Empire or to Austria

Why? I thought Albania stayed neutral?

2) Is Libya independent ? Or a colony of Italy ?

It's a Austrian colony (Recieved as spoil of war)

The Germans also had a colony in western Africa, Togo, I miss that one on the map

Could you paint it out or shouldn't I be lazy and just check Wiki?

South-Jemen and Kuwait would have been gained by the Ottomans

Cheers, will add that.

4) Vice-royalties

Any idea about the actual nations/borders Spain would set up?

6) Maybe an independent Central Asian Soviet Republic could have survived

If so, which would have survived?

7) How did they become separated ? Austria-Hungary would most likely have stayed one state.

They are still both a part of the Habsburgian empire, I am just not sure about the Hungarian autonomy within it.

Did the Hungarians have their own parliament or anything like that for example?

[Veldmaarschalk]

Albania was occupied during the war by the central powers, maybe they also could have reinstalled William of Wied

Map of Togoland

Togoland (tō'gōlănd') or Togo (tō'gō) , historic region (c.33,500 sq mi/86,800 sq km), W Africa, bordering on the Gulf of Guinea in the south. The western section of Togoland is now part of Ghana, and the eastern portion constitutes the Republic of Togo.

Viceroyalty of New Granada

New Granada, Viceroyalty of
Spanish viceroyalty in northwestern South America during colonial times. The region was conquered by the Spanish in the 16th century and was initially subject to the Viceroyalty of Peru. It became a separate viceroyalty-first established temporarily in 1717, and later permanently in1739- that included the modern countries of Colombia, Panama, Venezuela, and Ecuador. Its capital was Santa Fé (modern Bogotá). It was liberated from Spain in 1823.

Viceroyalty of Peru

Peru, Viceroyalty of
Second of the four viceroyalties established by Spain to govern its domains in the Americas. Founded in 1543, it initially included most of South America, but it lost jurisdiction over much of its territory to other viceroyalties over time. Peru, with its wealth of silver, was considered Spain's most valuable possession in the Americas. By the late 18th century, Indian rebellions had destabilized the region, and the viceroyalty was unable to defend itself when the revolutionary forces of José de San Martín entered Lima in 1821. It became part of Peru and Chile in 1824. See also New Granada; New Spain; Viceroyalty of Río de la Plata.

Viceroyalty of Rio de la Plata

Río de la Plata, Viceroyalty of the
Last of the four viceroyalties that Spain created to govern its New World colonies. Established in 1776 as means of decentralizing rule in the Spanish empire, it controlled an area previously administered by the Viceroyalty of Peru and included what is now Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, and Bolivia. Successive viceroys defended the territory against encroachment by Portugal and Britain and helped Buenos Aires become a flourishing outpost of the Spanish empire. Salted meat from the cattle ranches of the interior, exported to meet the demand for cheap food for slaves, brought unprecedented wealth to the colony. In 1810 the Creoles created a provisional junta and sent the viceroy into exile. See also New Granada;New Spain.

Viceroyalty of New Spain

New Spain, Viceroyalty of
Former Spanish viceroyalty (1535–1821), principally in North America. At various times it included what is now the southwestern U.S. (as well as Florida and parts of the coast of the Gulf of Mexico), Mexico, Central America north of Panama, much of the West Indies, and the Philippines. Mexico City was the seat of the government, which also had jurisdiction over Spain's Caribbean possessions. The first viceroy sent Francisco Vázquez de Coronado on his northern expeditions. The viceroyalty succumbed to the coalition forged by Agustín de Iturbide in 1821.

About central asia, what would be a more interesting alternative history is the creating of a pan-Turkic state, incorporating all the central asian republics as vassals of the Ottoman empire

[Kabraloth]

I fear I can only answer a couple of those. But anyway, your point of departure is so far back that the 20th century should be totally unrecognizable. But anyway...

Are the colonies that Germany, Austria and the Ottoman Empire grabbed in Africa likely?

The Ottomans should have Libya and the area south of it. Those were historically places where the Ottoman traders were. If there's anything like OTL's scramble to Africa and the Ottomans are stronger, then I don't see why they shouldn't get this land (it's mostly desert anyway).

Would India become independent by 1936?

Unlikely, although Dominion status is very likely.

Would any changes been made on how Russia developed in central Asia?

With a strong Scandinavia, it is even unlikely that Russia becomes as strong as it was (Peter the Great would likely be just another Russian prince with long beard and a thirst for vodka).

If the Habsburg empire survived 1919, would they be built up by individual Hungarian kingdom and a Austrian empire (But the Hungarians be made puppets of Austria) as after HoI2 model?
Or should they be made into 1 Austrian empire or 1 Habsburgian empire?

Your guess is as good as mine.
Personally, I am of the opinion that an Austria-Hungary which wins WW1 (unless it is a war of attrition like ours) will sooner or later descend into civil war with its Hungary half. The result would likely be a federalized whole empire.
For the sake of managability, I'd go for the Hungarian puppet kingdom.

[Skarion]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1&postcount=63

Something like this?

[lordofthemark]

given a 14th century POD, i think its impossible to say what the 19th or 20th century would look like. All you can do is write out a detailed timeline, and see if it hangs together.

[Skarion]

If you look on things in a DD perspective, how likely would the new great central powers to abondon their IRL blitzkrieg doctines and instead gone for the usual trench warefare which was usual in WW1?

And how likely would it be with a France which developes blitzkrieg as a way to break through the underdefended border with Germany?

given a 14th century POD, i think its impossible to say what the 19th or 20th century would look like. All you can do is write out a detailed timeline, and see if it hangs together.

Currently I haven't made any major changes except that the USA isn't created and the outcome of WW1. It's quite unlikely this would've happend, but it's a fun "what if?".