Prosperous socialists and peace-loving reactionaries?!

Alexander Seil · 08-07-2006, 20:44

My POPs decided to go all weird on me. Now, I can tolerate it when some Arabic farmers out in the deserts of North Africa turn reactionary despite their 0 militancy, but WTF is up with 100% life/everyday POPs taxed at 30% (well, high tariffs, but come on!) turning socialist? I even have a bunch of socialist capitalists in Barcelona! Talk about social responsibility

The most interesting part is that my craftsmen stay liberal while many farmers (the vast majority in Iberia outside of Portugal, it seems) have turned socialist. As I allow universal suffrage, I quickly banned the left-wing parties (and a bunch of others, just in case). So, what's the reason for all this? My plurality is very low, I am constitutional monarchy (no social programs, btw) and average consciousness tends to be low. The entire process of almost 18% of my population turning red took place in maybe a month or two. I almost hit the mobilization button when I spotted the percentage - I thought I was heading for an imminent revolution

Gen. Skobelev · 08-07-2006, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Seil

I even have a bunch of socialist capitalists in Barcelona!

That's scary! Unfortunately I have no idea how that comes - though I've noticed also that some colonial subjects of my rule tend to go reactionary with 0 militancy...

Alexander Seil · 08-07-2006, 20:53

By the way, those guys have more in the bank than the royal treasury. I wonder if they'd be willing to, ehh, share

Gen. Skobelev · 08-07-2006, 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Seil

By the way, those guys have more in the bank than the royal treasury. I wonder if they'd be willing to, ehh, share

Well, with only 30% taxes I'd say it's time they start to pay for his majestys expenses! What kind of king are you when you let your subject be so rich?

But perhaps some social reforms might help to the socialist menace. Though having consciousness low (as you said you had) should help in that.

mib · 09-07-2006, 03:32

I'm reactionary. And I support peace.

Countries like Sweden are prosperous. They are also socialist.

Alexander Seil · 09-07-2006, 04:20

But are you a Victoria population unit? If so, I think you need to watch out, otherwise there will be plenty of curious people on this forum trying to find you. You know, to dissect you and put the results up on VickyWiki

Jingles · 09-07-2006, 04:29

I tend to rule my people with an iron fist. 50% taxes for middle/rich, and 55% taxes for poor. Full tariffs, 0 crime, 100% education, 100% social(never have any of that liberal crap anyways

). Full army, 0 navy. The whole game. I call it ruling Tsar-style

The huge taxes let me field monstrous armies, to persuade my population to errr.... "support" my policies. No wonder I like to play Russia so much

Doesn't really matter if they're socialist, communist, reactionary, whatever. My army doesn't distinguish

Alexander Seil · 09-07-2006, 04:37

There wasn't as much as a riot in Iberia (outside of occupied Portugal) for about 60 years

I'd like to see this develop into a civil war...

Lord_Richmond · 09-07-2006, 07:09

I have seen similar things. In the early game, it seems that militacy is all that decides whether a pop is reactionary. However, latter in the game pops seem to change with little reason. It may be linked to date, forcing you to have X pops as sociaists once that ideology becomes availble. It may be an impact of a culture tech (dont some change X% of pop to certain ideology).

Lützow · 09-07-2006, 08:07

Welcome to Europe!

Here in Finland, the Social Democratic party is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) party, and I would call Finland prosperous.
I myself am in the middle class, maybe someone would say "upper middle class", and I would say in the game terms I have atleast 75% luxury needs, and I'm a Sosialist.

Arilou · 09-07-2006, 13:03

Quote:

I even have a bunch of socialist capitalists in Barcelona! Talk about social responsibility

That's not really strange, at least not for 20th century.
A lot of "capitalists" started supporting the social-democrats when they saw they were going to win anyway

Walen · 09-07-2006, 14:20

This is not really the place to discuss politics, but the present day social-democrats are not exactly the same as 19th century socialists.

I must admit that recently I was surprised when I saw reactionaries at 2 MIL, but they were the devolved remains from aristocrats merging with other conservative farmers. Seeing those strange ideologies appearing out of nowhere is even more strange. Mind though that socialism is the default ideology of some pop types since 1850.

Arilou · 09-07-2006, 15:21

Quote:

This is not really the place to discuss politics, but the present day social-democrats are not exactly the same as 19th century socialists.

By 1920 they were certainly approaching it though.

Quote:

I must admit that recently I was surprised when I saw reactionaries at 2 MIL, but they were the devolved remains from aristocrats merging with other conservative farmers. Seeing those strange ideologies appearing out of nowhere is even more strange. Mind though that socialism is the default ideology of some pop types since 1850.

Yup, I believe that's the point: Various POP's have been "naturally" conservative or liberal, BAM! Socialism appears and now they're all socialists.

NikkTheTrick · 09-07-2006, 22:52

I never saw socialist capitalists in my games

Also, craftsmen are the first ones I see turn socialist (as they should

)

altrgamm · 09-07-2006, 23:07

May be you intervened in politic settings too much? in my experience banning parties and changind the ruling one somehow gives to your POPs a strange ideas....but it's depending on goverment type...

Alexander Seil · 10-07-2006, 02:45

Alright, so, basically, no one has any clue about what's going on

And, no, I didn't start banning parties left and right until I spotted the socialists. Otherwise I'm just a constitutional monarchy with no social reforms and really low plurality.

By the way, this is not 1850 we're talking about. It's 1903, and there were no socialists in Spain in 1900. There were no socialists, as a matter of fact, even when my plurality was about 25% higher than it is right now. Socialists just kind of sprung up all of the suddent in 1902-1903, and most of them are rural POPs. The craftsmen/clerks are predominantly liberal. The situation is much worse in some places than it is in others - there are no socialists in Fez, despite a large Spanish farmer/laborer population, but socialists are overwhelmingly strong in Catalonia (also a largely rural region). Additionally, slaves in the Carribean and the Philippines have turned red.

Gen. Skobelev · 10-07-2006, 08:22

I guess they did not immigrate to your country? Sudden influx of socialist immigrants could explain the rise of red menace in your kingdom... but somehow I doubt you're having immigration strategy in your game.

Lützow · 10-07-2006, 09:27

Just let them coup you!

DarthMaur · 10-07-2006, 12:34

Might it be an event that turns part of your population into socialist? Like, the ones that turn them into liberal, etc. (culture tech tree)

Alexander Seil · 10-07-2006, 18:04

No, it's not immigration and it's not events. It seems that the most likely explanation are the POPs' low consciousness (at least for farmers). It's 1907 and the red menace is starting to retreat slowly.

08-07-2006, 20:44	#1
Alexander Seil Philosopher of the Future Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 7,335	Prosperous socialists and peace-loving reactionaries?! My POPs decided to go all weird on me. Now, I can tolerate it when some Arabic farmers out in the deserts of North Africa turn reactionary despite their 0 militancy, but WTF is up with 100% life/everyday POPs taxed at 30% (well, high tariffs, but come on!) turning socialist? I even have a bunch of socialist capitalists in Barcelona! Talk about social responsibility The most interesting part is that my craftsmen stay liberal while many farmers (the vast majority in Iberia outside of Portugal, it seems) have turned socialist. As I allow universal suffrage, I quickly banned the left-wing parties (and a bunch of others, just in case). So, what's the reason for all this? My plurality is very low, I am constitutional monarchy (no social programs, btw) and average consciousness tends to be low. The entire process of almost 18% of my population turning red took place in maybe a month or two. I almost hit the mobilization button when I spotted the percentage - I thought I was heading for an imminent revolution __________________ I admit to smoking, but I never exhaled. - B. Durruti Billy Bob's Concise Summary of Paradox Relationship Threads Censored for telling it like it is by: Haru yo koi

08-07-2006, 20:53	#3
Alexander Seil Philosopher of the Future Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 7,335	By the way, those guys have more in the bank than the royal treasury. I wonder if they'd be willing to, ehh, share __________________ I admit to smoking, but I never exhaled. - B. Durruti Billy Bob's Concise Summary of Paradox Relationship Threads Censored for telling it like it is by: Haru yo koi

09-07-2006, 03:32	#5
mib I build for China Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: United Bloody States of Metric F*cktons of IC Posts: 4,647	I'm reactionary. And I support peace. Countries like Sweden are prosperous. They are also socialist. __________________ Chinese Historical Improvements (CHI) Project for HOI3 Consolidated China Improvement Pack (CCIP) for HOI2 HOI2 \| Doomsday \| Armageddon \| China players beware

09-07-2006, 04:20	#6
Alexander Seil Philosopher of the Future Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 7,335	But are you a Victoria population unit? If so, I think you need to watch out, otherwise there will be plenty of curious people on this forum trying to find you. You know, to dissect you and put the results up on VickyWiki __________________ I admit to smoking, but I never exhaled. - B. Durruti Billy Bob's Concise Summary of Paradox Relationship Threads Censored for telling it like it is by: Haru yo koi

09-07-2006, 04:29	#7
Jingles Forlorn Hope Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 816	I tend to rule my people with an iron fist. 50% taxes for middle/rich, and 55% taxes for poor. Full tariffs, 0 crime, 100% education, 100% social(never have any of that liberal crap anyways ). Full army, 0 navy. The whole game. I call it ruling Tsar-style The huge taxes let me field monstrous armies, to persuade my population to errr.... "support" my policies. No wonder I like to play Russia so much Doesn't really matter if they're socialist, communist, reactionary, whatever. My army doesn't distinguish __________________ "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -Patrick Henry

09-07-2006, 04:37	#8
Alexander Seil Philosopher of the Future Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 7,335	There wasn't as much as a riot in Iberia (outside of occupied Portugal) for about 60 years I'd like to see this develop into a civil war... __________________ I admit to smoking, but I never exhaled. - B. Durruti Billy Bob's Concise Summary of Paradox Relationship Threads Censored for telling it like it is by: Haru yo koi

09-07-2006, 07:09	#9
Lord_Richmond Major Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 623	I have seen similar things. In the early game, it seems that militacy is all that decides whether a pop is reactionary. However, latter in the game pops seem to change with little reason. It may be linked to date, forcing you to have X pops as sociaists once that ideology becomes availble. It may be an impact of a culture tech (dont some change X% of pop to certain ideology). __________________ The Victoria Tutorial - Comprehensive guide for beginners - http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...58#post9168158

09-07-2006, 08:07	#10
Lützow Major Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mikkeli, Finland Posts: 778	Welcome to Europe! Here in Finland, the Social Democratic party is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) party, and I would call Finland prosperous. I myself am in the middle class, maybe someone would say "upper middle class", and I would say in the game terms I have atleast 75% luxury needs, and I'm a Sosialist.

09-07-2006, 14:20	#12
Walen Field Crown Hetman Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: 947, where the bears wander loosely on the streets Posts: 1,160	This is not really the place to discuss politics, but the present day social-democrats are not exactly the same as 19th century socialists. I must admit that recently I was surprised when I saw reactionaries at 2 MIL, but they were the devolved remains from aristocrats merging with other conservative farmers. Seeing those strange ideologies appearing out of nowhere is even more strange. Mind though that socialism is the default ideology of some pop types since 1850. __________________ Victoria 1.04 + OHgamer's hotfix pack ..... \| ..... VickyWiki has answers to your questions Attitudes comparison ..... Research, RPs and literacy ...... Argentina AAR/Guide (suspended) Election mechanics ........ Crime concepts explained ....... Intensive and extensive improvements Immigration factors ........ Oranje AAR (ongoing) ............ (outdated) Pop size efficiency analysis Victoria Improvement Project 0.45 is out at last. I will try it out as soon as I have some free time Victoria: Revolutions is out!!! But I don't have a credit card to pay yet Europa Universalis III is out!!! But will it make good old EU2 obsolete? You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. - W. Churchill The more a worker earns the more it buys. The more a capitalist buys the more it earns. - M. Kalecki Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. - ???

09-07-2006, 22:52	#14
NikkTheTrick Field Marshal Join Date: May 2004 Location: I really don't know Posts: 3,612	I never saw socialist capitalists in my games Also, craftsmen are the first ones I see turn socialist (as they should ) __________________ If you have problems with getting into Personal Unions in EUIII, adopt "keep your %@#$ in your pants" policy with regards to Royal marriages.

09-07-2006, 23:07	#15
altrgamm First Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 257	May be you intervened in politic settings too much? in my experience banning parties and changind the ruling one somehow gives to your POPs a strange ideas....but it's depending on goverment type...

10-07-2006, 02:45	#16
Alexander Seil Philosopher of the Future Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 7,335	Alright, so, basically, no one has any clue about what's going on And, no, I didn't start banning parties left and right until I spotted the socialists. Otherwise I'm just a constitutional monarchy with no social reforms and really low plurality. By the way, this is not 1850 we're talking about. It's 1903, and there were no socialists in Spain in 1900. There were no socialists, as a matter of fact, even when my plurality was about 25% higher than it is right now. Socialists just kind of sprung up all of the suddent in 1902-1903, and most of them are rural POPs. The craftsmen/clerks are predominantly liberal. The situation is much worse in some places than it is in others - there are no socialists in Fez, despite a large Spanish farmer/laborer population, but socialists are overwhelmingly strong in Catalonia (also a largely rural region). Additionally, slaves in the Carribean and the Philippines have turned red. __________________ I admit to smoking, but I never exhaled. - B. Durruti Billy Bob's Concise Summary of Paradox Relationship Threads Censored for telling it like it is by: Haru yo koi

10-07-2006, 08:22	#17
Gen. Skobelev The White General Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,147	I guess they did not immigrate to your country? Sudden influx of socialist immigrants could explain the rise of red menace in your kingdom... but somehow I doubt you're having immigration strategy in your game. __________________ Play Advanced Third Reich with fellow Paradoxians! \| A3R AAR Battle of the Arctic II - updated 4.5.2008 (Fall 1942 done) \| My AAR repository "The elemental truth must be stressed that the characteristic of any country before its industrial revolution and modernisation is poverty..." Mathias, First Industrial Nation, pg. 5 "The Central Committee and the government are in possession of definite proof that this massive exodus of the peasants has been organized by the enemies of the Soviet regime, by counterrevolutionaries, and by Polish agents as a propaganda coup against the process for collectivization in particular and the Soviet Government in general" - SU leadership about famine & migration caused by bolshevik policy of confiscating all food despite human losses. Stéphane Courtois et al, The Black Book of Communism, pg. 164 Play A3R (Advanced Third Reich) or AWAW (A World at War): www.warplanner.com In Wiki we trust: VickyWiki\|CKWiki (offline)\|HoI2Wiki\|EU3Wiki

10-07-2006, 09:27	#18
Lützow Major Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mikkeli, Finland Posts: 778	Just let them coup you!

10-07-2006, 12:34	#19
DarthMaur Grandpa Maur Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 7,818	Might it be an event that turns part of your population into socialist? Like, the ones that turn them into liberal, etc. (culture tech tree) __________________ Polyamory? And now also the (shorter, but expanding lately!) Polish version! Androgynous atheist bisexual feminist liberal libertine polyamorous transhumanist switch.

10-07-2006, 18:04	#20
Alexander Seil Philosopher of the Future Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 7,335	No, it's not immigration and it's not events. It seems that the most likely explanation are the POPs' low consciousness (at least for farmers). It's 1907 and the red menace is starting to retreat slowly. __________________ I admit to smoking, but I never exhaled. - B. Durruti Billy Bob's Concise Summary of Paradox Relationship Threads Censored for telling it like it is by: Haru yo koi