The seemingly endless Soviet infantry divisions.

babyblue · 24-05-2006, 15:28

Well...I started of as Germany in 1936. Did everything a year earlier than history-annexed Polandand Vichied France by the end of 1939, but paused, thought and decided against Sealion and instead would go for the Soviet union. So I had all my forces transferred to the East and left only 5 interceptor squadrons(in three groups of 2-2-1 based in Brussels to protect against Allied bombers comming from the British Isles) and a couple of infantry divisions to defend some(not all) of the beaches on the Channel and Atlantic coast.
Then, after some months of organising my forces on the border with the Soviets, I launched Barbarossa in May 1940, with 78 infantry and 20 armoured divisions. I had heavy forces in every province along the border, but I only launched one offensive in one sector(usually covering 2-3 provinces) at a time, as I don't think I can manage to concentrate my attention along the entire front at the same time. I did some nice encirclements in Kiev, the Crimea region and in the Baltic states, and destroy close to 60-70 Soviet divisions at least. After a long break for winter I've manage to capture the undefended Moscow with 5 Para divisions and smashed all the defences around Moscow with my Panzers comming the other way. It's now June 1941 I'm turning my attention to Leningrad in the north.
Tonight I thought I might load up as the Soviet Union to see how they were doing. They've been reduced to about 220 available IC's and still have about 130 Infantry divisions left. I let the game run for about one minute, then a Lend-Lease event popped up giving the Soviets 10000 supplies and 500 rare materials...WTF? They don't even need to produce their own supplies, diverting the IC's to churn out infantry divisions instead!
Now here are my questions...
1: is the Soviets gonna keep churning out those infantry divisions to see if I can destroy them as fast as they can produce them? Do they ever run out of manpower?
2: I didn't sign the Tri-partite pact with neither Japan or Italy, but am in an alliance with Italy...does it still require me to go all the way to capture Vladivostok to trigger bitter peace? And if I don't want a bitter peace but would rather annex the entire USSR, do I have to capture all their provinces with VP's?
I'm playing Doomsday 1.1 by the way.
Help is needed and thanks in advance...

MadViking · 24-05-2006, 15:35

Generally the Soviets never run out of manpower (unless you play them yourself on very hard level). They will continue to churn out inf as long as they have IC and MP. The lend-lease events do give them a bit of supplies and rares, but the main bonus is the +6 IC

To annex a nation (any) you must control 100% of their VP provinces, so if you want to annex the Soviets you must control Vladivostok (well, you don't actually have to control it, as long as the Soviets themselves don't).

Btw capturing an undefended AI capital with paras is IMHO quite gamey. It's one thing if it's against a human player (they should know better), but the AI is simply not smart enough to figure such basic things out.

Lord of Pain · 24-05-2006, 15:38

Nice game

Quote:

Originally Posted by babyblue

1: is the Soviets gonna keep churning out those infantry divisions to see if I can destroy them as fast as they can produce them?

They will fight to the bitter end or peace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by babyblue

Do they ever run out of manpower?

They can run out of manpower like any other nation, but it's not likely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by babyblue

2: I didn't sign the Tri-partite pact with neither Japan or Italy, but am in an alliance with Italy...does it still require me to go all the way to capture Vladivostok to trigger bitter peace? And if I don't want a bitter peace but would rather annex the entire USSR, do I have to capture all their provinces with VP's?

The capital and all VP's are required if you want to annex a nation.

PNEawf · 24-05-2006, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadViking

Btw capturing an undefended AI capital with paras is IMHO quite gamey. It's one thing if it's against a human player (they should know better), but the AI is simply not smart enough to figure such basic things out.

What a shame he was playing against the AI, eh?

Medi · 24-05-2006, 15:42

I think there's a bug with one of the DD Bitter Peaces: it requires Germany to be at war with Japan, so you might want to check the USSR events. You don't need Vladivostok, even if you ally with Japan (seeing as there's a Vladivostok OR Sverodlovsk in DD's Bitter Peace). Also, I see no reason for not wanting to go for Bitter Peace (as Germany).

babyblue · 24-05-2006, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medi

I think there's a bug with one of the DD Bitter Peaces: it requires Germany to be at war with Japan, so you might want to check the USSR events. You don't need Vladivostok, even if you ally with Japan (seeing as there's a Vladivostok OR Sverodlovsk in DD's Bitter Peace). Also, I see no reason for not wanting to go for Bitter Peace (as Germany).

what does bitter peace give u that an outright annexation doesn't?

PNEawf · 24-05-2006, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by babyblue

what does bitter peace give u that an outright annexation doesn't?

Months of not having to wade through Siberia.

babyblue · 24-05-2006, 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadViking

Btw capturing an undefended AI capital with paras is IMHO quite gamey. It's one thing if it's against a human player (they should know better), but the AI is simply not smart enough to figure such basic things out.

yeah i never thought of that...but it's my first barbarossa and I really want to get it over and done with, as the UK is really annoying trying to hit my industries in northern France, and while they're at it, their IC has grown to an enormous 300 something...there are over 30 industries in London and Sheffield alone

I want to take the British Isles as soon as I can...but I can't do that without first taking the SU

Medi · 24-05-2006, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by babyblue

what does bitter peace give u that an outright annexation doesn't?

2% Partisan Activity in Provinces ceded by Bitter peace.

Hevendor · 24-05-2006, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by babyblue

what does bitter peace give u that an outright annexation doesn't?

It also gives you loads of good territory while not needing to occupy all USSR victory point provinces.

PNEawf · 24-05-2006, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by babyblue

yeah i never thought of that...but it's my first barbarossa and I really want to get it over and done with, as the UK is really annoying trying to hit my industries in northern France, and while they're at it, their IC has grown to an enormous 300 something...there are over 30 industries in London and Sheffield alone

I want to take the British Isles as soon as I can...but I can't do that without first taking the SU

Why would you think of it?

If everything you did that was better than the |AI was capable of was considered "Gamey" then you would be doing nothing. The entire suggestion is ludicrous.

USAF_777 · 24-05-2006, 20:41

I find encirclement against SOV is really only good to make progress easier in the short term, since they do just keep producing...just keep pushing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medi

I think there's a bug with one of the DD Bitter Peaces: it requires Germany to be at war with Japan, so you might want to check the USSR events. You don't need Vladivostok, even if you ally with Japan (seeing as there's a Vladivostok OR Sverodlovsk in DD's Bitter Peace). Also, I see no reason for not wanting to go for Bitter Peace (as Germany).

If JAP is allied to GER or at war with SOV then the DD version will require they also be at war with GER (which isn't possible if they're allied, it is if they're each seperately at war though). Easy to fix just by moving it into the first NOT block, and irrelevant if Japan is not involved in the war.

john heidle · 25-05-2006, 12:23

Go for the Bitter Peace because that saves an incredible amount of TC due to lower base partisan levels. No need to annex the SU if the Bitter Peace is offered as you can always due that later after an armistice period. Conditions listed here:

http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/G...e_Bitter_Peace

There is a separate Doomsday forum:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...play.php?f=327

babyblue · 25-05-2006, 14:12

ah ok so the deal is: without signing the Tripartite pact(in my case), or Japan in the Axis, I only need to go as far as capturing Sverdlovsk(along with other cities that's part of the condition) and not needing to go all the way to Vladivostok? Is that right?

Medi · 25-05-2006, 14:20

Code:

		trigger = {
		war = { country = GER country = SOV }
		random = 35
		OR = {
			control = { province = 56 data = GER } # Paris is not free
			control = { province = 56 data = VIC } # Paris is not free
		}
		OR = {
			AND = {
				lost_national = { country = SOV value = 25 } #maybe raise this number
				NOT = {
					war = { country = GER country = ENG }
					war = { country = GER country = FRA }
					war = { country = GER country = USA }
				}
			}
			AND = {
				NOT = {
						control = { province = 187 data = SOV } # Leningrad has fallen
						control = { province = 163 data = SOV } # Stalingrad has fallen
						control = { province = 175 data = SOV } # Moscow has fallen
						control = { province = 1907 data = SOV } # Baku has fallen
						control = { province = 1572 data = SOV } # Sverdlovsk has fallen
						war = { country = GER country = JAP }
						war = { country = SOV country = JAP }
						alliance = { country = GER country = JAP }
						#flag = JAPtripartite
						war = { country = GER country = ITA } # To avoid exploits
					}
			   	}
		   	}
		}

This means:

Soviets need to loose 25% of their VPs.
Soviets have lost Moscow+Leningrad+Stalingrad+Baku+Sverodlovsk.
Japan isn't at war with either Germany or Soviets.
There's no Alliance between Germany and Japan/Italy.
Germany isn't at war with USA, France and Great Britain.
Plus some obvious things like war between Soviets and Germany, which I didn't count in.

Notice that the JAPtripartite is noted out (There's a # in front of it).

babyblue · 25-05-2006, 15:05

Germany ISN'T at war with France and UK? But I AM

Medi · 25-05-2006, 16:38

That's one of the Bitter Peaces. There's a 2nd one in DD (and normal HOI2 too):

Code:

	trigger = {
		war = { country = GER country = SOV }
		OR = {
			control = { province = 56 data = GER } # Paris is not free
			control = { province = 56 data = VIC } # Paris is not free
			}
		AND = {
			NOT = {
				control = { province = 187 data = SOV } # Leningrad has fallen
				control = { province = 163 data = SOV } # Stalingrad has fallen
				control = { province = 175 data = SOV } # Moscow has fallen
				control = { province = 1907 data = SOV } # Baku has fallen
				}
			OR = {
				NOT = { control = { province = 1572 data = SOV } }# Sverdlovsk has fallen
				NOT = {	control = { province = 1372 data = SOV } }# Vladivostok has fallen
				}
			}
		OR = { 
				alliance = { country = GER country = JAP }
        			war = { country = SOV country = JAP }
			}
		random = 35

		}

Basically the same, except that Soviets need to be at war with Japanese (instead of the allies), either because of your alliance, or seperatly. If you have Sverdlovsk, then it'll fire normally to, since there's a 'Soviet doesn't control Sverdlovsk OR Vladivostok' trigger.

jurslla · 26-05-2006, 03:41

i play an gc ger vh /f with dd 1,1

i play germany and have alot of fun. but japan had problems in china and declared war on SU in 1939.

its now 1942 and japan get annhiliated by usa landings chinas from west and SU from north.

japan is ally with me.

whut does this mean for bitter peace with me?

shall i wait till they are gone or whut?

i am deeep in russia but an allied d-day in spain and english offense in iraq/turkey are pressing me back and my tc is killing me.

Pro_Consul · 26-05-2006, 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by jurslla

its now 1942 and japan get annhiliated by usa landings chinas from west and SU from north.

japan is ally with me.

whut does this mean for bitter peace with me?

It means Bitter Peace cannot happen unless you can get clear across Russia to take Vladivostok yourself. If you have done the smart thing in your invasion of Russia and used encirclements to emasculate their army, then you should have enough superiority on that front to strat deploy some offensive units back to France and kick the USA back into the sea. If you do NOT have such an advantage over the Sovs, you are doomed.

babyblue · 26-05-2006, 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro_Consul

If you have done the smart thing in your invasion of Russia and used encirclements to emasculate their army, then you should have enough superiority on that front to strat deploy some offensive units back to France and kick the USA back into the sea. If you do NOT have such an advantage over the Sovs, you are doomed.

Yes that's partially what this thread's about...they just keep producing no matter how many I encircle and destroy...
I load up as the SU every time I finish a session to see just how many divisions I destroy...but the numbers seems to stay virtually the same...I'm now ready to take Stalingrad and the new Soviet capital(forgot what it's called), but they just keep producing. And I'm not allied with Japan...can't get them to be my ally anymore since our relationship is -200 as I've been sending so many spies into that country in an attempt to steal their naval blueprints, and I'm at war with the US now since Japan DoWed them and the USA allied itself with GB and France-friggin' Japan got me into a war indirectly even though we are not allied and my relationship with the US was +150...was even about to sign a non-aggression pact with them...such things those despicable Japs can do...

24-05-2006, 15:28	#1
babyblue First Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Eora Posts: 220	The seemingly endless Soviet infantry divisions. Well...I started of as Germany in 1936. Did everything a year earlier than history-annexed Polandand Vichied France by the end of 1939, but paused, thought and decided against Sealion and instead would go for the Soviet union. So I had all my forces transferred to the East and left only 5 interceptor squadrons(in three groups of 2-2-1 based in Brussels to protect against Allied bombers comming from the British Isles) and a couple of infantry divisions to defend some(not all) of the beaches on the Channel and Atlantic coast. Then, after some months of organising my forces on the border with the Soviets, I launched Barbarossa in May 1940, with 78 infantry and 20 armoured divisions. I had heavy forces in every province along the border, but I only launched one offensive in one sector(usually covering 2-3 provinces) at a time, as I don't think I can manage to concentrate my attention along the entire front at the same time. I did some nice encirclements in Kiev, the Crimea region and in the Baltic states, and destroy close to 60-70 Soviet divisions at least. After a long break for winter I've manage to capture the undefended Moscow with 5 Para divisions and smashed all the defences around Moscow with my Panzers comming the other way. It's now June 1941 I'm turning my attention to Leningrad in the north. Tonight I thought I might load up as the Soviet Union to see how they were doing. They've been reduced to about 220 available IC's and still have about 130 Infantry divisions left. I let the game run for about one minute, then a Lend-Lease event popped up giving the Soviets 10000 supplies and 500 rare materials...WTF? They don't even need to produce their own supplies, diverting the IC's to churn out infantry divisions instead! Now here are my questions... 1: is the Soviets gonna keep churning out those infantry divisions to see if I can destroy them as fast as they can produce them? Do they ever run out of manpower? 2: I didn't sign the Tri-partite pact with neither Japan or Italy, but am in an alliance with Italy...does it still require me to go all the way to capture Vladivostok to trigger bitter peace? And if I don't want a bitter peace but would rather annex the entire USSR, do I have to capture all their provinces with VP's? I'm playing Doomsday 1.1 by the way. Help is needed and thanks in advance...

24-05-2006, 15:35	#2
MadViking Coffee is for closers only Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: You think I'm f***ing with you? Posts: 1,258	Generally the Soviets never run out of manpower (unless you play them yourself on very hard level). They will continue to churn out inf as long as they have IC and MP. The lend-lease events do give them a bit of supplies and rares, but the main bonus is the +6 IC To annex a nation (any) you must control 100% of their VP provinces, so if you want to annex the Soviets you must control Vladivostok (well, you don't actually have to control it, as long as the Soviets themselves don't). Btw capturing an undefended AI capital with paras is IMHO quite gamey. It's one thing if it's against a human player (they should know better), but the AI is simply not smart enough to figure such basic things out. __________________ "Everybody's got a plan until they get hit." - Mike Tyson "It's tough making predictions, especially about the future." - Yogi Berra "We should be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains fall out." - Richard Dawkins

25-05-2006, 12:23	#13
john heidle [retired] FM Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 10,274	Go for the Bitter Peace because that saves an incredible amount of TC due to lower base partisan levels. No need to annex the SU if the Bitter Peace is offered as you can always due that later after an armistice period. Conditions listed here: http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/G...e_Bitter_Peace There is a separate Doomsday forum: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...play.php?f=327 __________________ ...

24-05-2006, 15:42	#5
Medi Major Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 609	I think there's a bug with one of the DD Bitter Peaces: it requires Germany to be at war with Japan, so you might want to check the USSR events. You don't need Vladivostok, even if you ally with Japan (seeing as there's a Vladivostok OR Sverodlovsk in DD's Bitter Peace). Also, I see no reason for not wanting to go for Bitter Peace (as Germany).

25-05-2006, 14:12	#14
babyblue First Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Eora Posts: 220	ah ok so the deal is: without signing the Tripartite pact(in my case), or Japan in the Axis, I only need to go as far as capturing Sverdlovsk(along with other cities that's part of the condition) and not needing to go all the way to Vladivostok? Is that right?

25-05-2006, 15:05	#16
babyblue First Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Eora Posts: 220	Germany ISN'T at war with France and UK? But I AM

26-05-2006, 03:41	#18
jurslla Captain Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 321	i play an gc ger vh /f with dd 1,1 i play germany and have alot of fun. but japan had problems in china and declared war on SU in 1939. its now 1942 and japan get annhiliated by usa landings chinas from west and SU from north. japan is ally with me. whut does this mean for bitter peace with me? shall i wait till they are gone or whut? i am deeep in russia but an allied d-day in spain and english offense in iraq/turkey are pressing me back and my tc is killing me.