Dutch conquest of Belgium

Quirinus308 · 21-04-2006, 16:36

I know this subject of the Dutch reconquering Belgium has come up in the past, so forgive me if any of this is redundant, but I was just wondering...

I was going to write an event that would allow the Netherlands to completely annex Belgium if they control all of her provinces. I think that during the war, if the Dutch completely conquered Belgium in this way, the other European powers would not have intervened. Intervention came when the Dutch were not able to retake the rebel provinces. So here is my question. If the Dutch retake Belgium, should they be given Flemish culture, or would they there be to much animosity between the two cultures for such a reconciliation to take place?

noddy102 · 21-04-2006, 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quirinus308

I know this subject of the Dutch reconquering Belgium has come up in the past, so forgive me if any of this is redundant, but I was just wondering...

I was going to write an event that would allow the Netherlands to completely annex Belgium if they control all of her provinces. I think that during the war, if the Dutch completely conquered Belgium in this way, the other European powers would not have intervened. Intervention came when the Dutch were not able to retake the rebel provinces. So here is my question. If the Dutch retake Belgium, should they be given Flemish culture, or would they there be to much animosity between the two cultures for such a reconciliation to take place?

I doubt they should get Flemish culture. That's like giving Britain an Irish culture or Prussia/Russia getting a Polish culture.

Emp_Palpatine · 21-04-2006, 16:54

As far as I remember, the Netherlands has flemish as a State Culture...
But I personnaly agree with such an event: Netherlands should gain Belgium, but with heavy revolt risk there and a huge loss of relations with countries that have choosen to support Belgium.

Raph · 22-04-2006, 08:33

Perhaps they might gain flemish culture in a later event, like 20 years later or so.

Raph · 22-04-2006, 08:35

And, by the way, USA gets to keep Dixie culture after the ACW.

Emp_Palpatine · 22-04-2006, 09:22

That can be a solution too. But are you sure that in Vanilla Vicky, the Netherlands does not have Flemish culture?
Actually, I only played them in a mod where they have it. I don't know if it is the case in vanilla.

Man of Tollund · 22-04-2006, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by noddy102

I doubt they should get Flemish culture. That's like giving Britain an Irish culture or Prussia/Russia getting a Polish culture.

Are the diffirences of Flemish and Dutch so great like the Irish and the British or the Poles and the Germans? Considering the participation level of the Flemish and dutch populations For the Axis in the 2nd WW even though conquered by the Germans i don't really think that the union of these cultures can be totaly unrealistic.Unless if someone can prove otherwise, that for example the flemish and dutch hate each other like the serbs and the croats that they are the same race speak almost the same language but they have a diffirent relegion and historical background and therefore hate each other.

Markusw7 · 22-04-2006, 11:15

The Netherlands does have Flemish culture in Vanilla Vicky i just checked.

Emp_Palpatine · 22-04-2006, 11:55

Well, they both speak quite the same language with some little differencies. Most issues are religion (Catholicism versus protestantism) and history (Union of Arras versus Indepedence).

Sleepyhead · 22-04-2006, 14:30

Language shouldn't be taken into consideration here methinks, Spain doesn't have North/South Andean, Central American, Mexican etc. and The UK doesn't have Yankee and Dixie. France doesn't have Franco Canadian, Schweiz only has Swiss. Then we have the other German countries. Denmark doesn't have Swedish/Norwegian and vice versa. Finland doesn't have Estonian and so on.

Strategist · 22-04-2006, 14:55

It is quite difficult to get it right. I have been working a while for VIP on this stuff, and I am not quite finished yet... I set up a nice event chain, only to find out that there were some major flaws in it. I am going to rework the complete event chain another time, and then hopefully it all will be in VIP (I hope 0.5), but it is going to be some work.

For the Flemish culture thingy, thats not so easy to answer as well. The difference between Dutch and Flemish isnt religious, as the religious border is the river area in the Netherlands, Staatsbrabant and Limburg are exactly the same as the Flemish provinces. Language is another interesting thing, both Dutch and Flemish people speak Dutch. Flemish people do have an accent (or the other way around

), but so do the people in Staatsbrabant and Limburg (these days the words used are partially different as well, but that wanst so in the 1830s). The real language border is the one between French and Flemish, not the one between Flemish and Dutch. That still leaves the question what is flemish and what is Dutch? Before the 1830s both pretty much meaned the same, there was no difference. After the 1830s it became different, and the difference increased over time, but what exactly caused that difference? That is pretty much impossible to answer. Supporting the revolt? As someone on the VIP forum pointed out to me, pretty much all of Limburg originally supported the revolt as well, nevertheless, they are Dutch. So, in other words, being in the territory that remained independent from the Netherlands makes one Flemish as opposed to Dutch. And if you use that difference, that means that would the Netherlands succeed in reconquering the south, the Flemish culture should be turned to Dutch as well.

Emp_Palpatine · 22-04-2006, 16:52

According to me, as the Netherlands does have "Flemish" as a State culture, things can stay as they are in vanilla Vicky. It would be usefull to convert Flemish into Dutch if Netherlands does not own that culture, but it's not the case.
Let's keep it in order to simulate "particularism" just like South-German culture can simulate Bayern particularities.

21-04-2006, 16:36	#1
Quirinus308 Lt. General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Computer desk in the office Posts: 1,504	Dutch conquest of Belgium I know this subject of the Dutch reconquering Belgium has come up in the past, so forgive me if any of this is redundant, but I was just wondering... I was going to write an event that would allow the Netherlands to completely annex Belgium if they control all of her provinces. I think that during the war, if the Dutch completely conquered Belgium in this way, the other European powers would not have intervened. Intervention came when the Dutch were not able to retake the rebel provinces. So here is my question. If the Dutch retake Belgium, should they be given Flemish culture, or would they there be to much animosity between the two cultures for such a reconciliation to take place? __________________ An Italian AAR The Will of God German WW1 AAR The World is not Enough AARLand Choice Favorite Vicky AAR: 2006 Q4 The problem with learning patience is that it takes to long to learn

21-04-2006, 16:54	#3
Emp_Palpatine L'Empire, c'est la paix! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Du côté obscur! Posts: 2,760	As far as I remember, the Netherlands has flemish as a State Culture... But I personnaly agree with such an event: Netherlands should gain Belgium, but with heavy revolt risk there and a huge loss of relations with countries that have choosen to support Belgium. __________________ "Votre Hugo est fou avec son "Napoléon le petit". Napoléon le petit, c'est celui de la Colonne." Victor Cousin Petite balade dans le Dixie Land: Hurrah for the Bonnie blue flag that bears the Single StAAR! C'est reparti comme en 14: la VictoAAR en chantant!

22-04-2006, 08:33	#4
Raph Lt. General Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Old Man's Meadow Posts: 1,634	Perhaps they might gain flemish culture in a later event, like 20 years later or so. __________________ Raph: 1 Labourer Nationality: Swedish Religion: N/A Ideology: Communist Issues: Planned Economy/Full Citizenship Current Work: Supermarket Cash Reserves: 0£ Revoltrisk: 50% Militancy: 5 (+0.15) Counsciousness: 10 (+1.00)

22-04-2006, 08:35	#5
Raph Lt. General Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Old Man's Meadow Posts: 1,634	And, by the way, USA gets to keep Dixie culture after the ACW. __________________ Raph: 1 Labourer Nationality: Swedish Religion: N/A Ideology: Communist Issues: Planned Economy/Full Citizenship Current Work: Supermarket Cash Reserves: 0£ Revoltrisk: 50% Militancy: 5 (+0.15) Counsciousness: 10 (+1.00)

22-04-2006, 09:22	#6
Emp_Palpatine L'Empire, c'est la paix! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Du côté obscur! Posts: 2,760	That can be a solution too. But are you sure that in Vanilla Vicky, the Netherlands does not have Flemish culture? Actually, I only played them in a mod where they have it. I don't know if it is the case in vanilla. __________________ "Votre Hugo est fou avec son "Napoléon le petit". Napoléon le petit, c'est celui de la Colonne." Victor Cousin Petite balade dans le Dixie Land: Hurrah for the Bonnie blue flag that bears the Single StAAR! C'est reparti comme en 14: la VictoAAR en chantant!

22-04-2006, 11:15	#8
Markusw7 Shadow Rising Join Date: May 2004 Location: London Posts: 2,362	The Netherlands does have Flemish culture in Vanilla Vicky i just checked. __________________ Markusw7 I'm so powerful i made Paris Hilton a productive member of society. Scipio Aemilius Bows in reverence and admiration The Illustrious Kingdom of Indogracia

22-04-2006, 11:55	#9
Emp_Palpatine L'Empire, c'est la paix! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Du côté obscur! Posts: 2,760	Well, they both speak quite the same language with some little differencies. Most issues are religion (Catholicism versus protestantism) and history (Union of Arras versus Indepedence). __________________ "Votre Hugo est fou avec son "Napoléon le petit". Napoléon le petit, c'est celui de la Colonne." Victor Cousin Petite balade dans le Dixie Land: Hurrah for the Bonnie blue flag that bears the Single StAAR! C'est reparti comme en 14: la VictoAAR en chantant!

22-04-2006, 14:30	#10
Sleepyhead Cool custom avatar gone :( Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Helsinki Posts: 3,874 Blog Entries: 1	Language shouldn't be taken into consideration here methinks, Spain doesn't have North/South Andean, Central American, Mexican etc. and The UK doesn't have Yankee and Dixie. France doesn't have Franco Canadian, Schweiz only has Swiss. Then we have the other German countries. Denmark doesn't have Swedish/Norwegian and vice versa. Finland doesn't have Estonian and so on. __________________ In the Soviet Union they told us we needed a federal state to avoid war, in the European Union they are telling you exactly the same thing. - Vladimir Bukovsky

22-04-2006, 14:55	#11
Strategist European Victorian Politico Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bodily in Europe; Heart and Mind in the USA. Posts: 2,258	It is quite difficult to get it right. I have been working a while for VIP on this stuff, and I am not quite finished yet... I set up a nice event chain, only to find out that there were some major flaws in it. I am going to rework the complete event chain another time, and then hopefully it all will be in VIP (I hope 0.5), but it is going to be some work. For the Flemish culture thingy, thats not so easy to answer as well. The difference between Dutch and Flemish isnt religious, as the religious border is the river area in the Netherlands, Staatsbrabant and Limburg are exactly the same as the Flemish provinces. Language is another interesting thing, both Dutch and Flemish people speak Dutch. Flemish people do have an accent (or the other way around ), but so do the people in Staatsbrabant and Limburg (these days the words used are partially different as well, but that wanst so in the 1830s). The real language border is the one between French and Flemish, not the one between Flemish and Dutch. That still leaves the question what is flemish and what is Dutch? Before the 1830s both pretty much meaned the same, there was no difference. After the 1830s it became different, and the difference increased over time, but what exactly caused that difference? That is pretty much impossible to answer. Supporting the revolt? As someone on the VIP forum pointed out to me, pretty much all of Limburg originally supported the revolt as well, nevertheless, they are Dutch. So, in other words, being in the territory that remained independent from the Netherlands makes one Flemish as opposed to Dutch. And if you use that difference, that means that would the Netherlands succeed in reconquering the south, the Flemish culture should be turned to Dutch as well. __________________ ● The warrior protects and defends because he realizes the value of others. He knows that they are essential to society and, in his gift of service, recognizes and values theirs... take the extra moment in dark parking lots at night to make sure that a woman gets into her car safely before leaving yourself. Daily involvement in acts such as these are as much a part of training as time spent in the dojo, and indeed should be the reason for that time spent training... When faced with a woman or child in a situation in which they are vulnerable, there are two types of men: those who would offer succor and aid, and those who would prey upon them. And in modern society, there is another loathsome breed who would totally ignore their plight!

22-04-2006, 16:52	#12
Emp_Palpatine L'Empire, c'est la paix! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Du côté obscur! Posts: 2,760	According to me, as the Netherlands does have "Flemish" as a State culture, things can stay as they are in vanilla Vicky. It would be usefull to convert Flemish into Dutch if Netherlands does not own that culture, but it's not the case. Let's keep it in order to simulate "particularism" just like South-German culture can simulate Bayern particularities. __________________ "Votre Hugo est fou avec son "Napoléon le petit". Napoléon le petit, c'est celui de la Colonne." Victor Cousin Petite balade dans le Dixie Land: Hurrah for the Bonnie blue flag that bears the Single StAAR! C'est reparti comme en 14: la VictoAAR en chantant!