City population growth, case study

Henrique Duarte · 04-12-2000, 20:36

Here is a small comparison of pop. growth of a big European city in the game versus historical record:
City: Lisbon, Portugal

Historical record (In: História de Portugal -1993. coord. José Matoso, vol 3 p. 234)
1527: 60.000 hab
1575-1600: 120.000 hab
1639: 180.000 hab

Europa Universalis (grand campaign) Lisbon pop. evolution in a game played as Portugal (the city was never sieged or sacked and Portugal had reduced stability (<+3) for 40 months total:

1492: 9.000 hab
1617: +-12.000 hab
20-30% growth in more than 100 years, for a major colonial empire capital (for that time period at least)

Now if we compare city growth with colony growth it becomes a joke!
a 100 hab colony with a good growth rate becomes a city (700 hab) in 30-60 years, this means that it grows 7x in that time period!
which clearly doesn´t happen in larger cities...

It seems that city size also influences army supply levels and this means that if one plays a grand campaign, the army size by 1700 supported by most provinces will be much different from the one in a Mercantilismus scenario (were pop of a city in this scenario is usually much different from the pop of the same city in 1492 in the grand campaign)

Please can someone from Paradox comment on the city growth issue, is it meant to be this way? (I´ve tried all the game versions and pop. growth worked the same way in all of them)
One can still enjoy the game (a lot, I should add), if we don´t even look at the city numbers, but it is rather unsatisfying that a game feature that should add to the 'immersion' sentation gives the opposite feeling.

Tom · 06-12-2000, 03:14

Actually I have wondered also about the population figures given. What are they really to stand for? The population of the largest city in a province? The population of the province? I guess this may be in the manual, but until I have it in English I'm afraid I won't be able to really use that to figure it out.

Generalfeldmarschall · 06-12-2000, 03:35

the population is for the largest city. i have some big cities in my empire. one has 450,000 inhabitants... of course, using swift helped a little

------------------
Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze Brüderlich zusammenhält.

[This message has been edited by Generalfeldmarschall (edited 06-12-2000).]

*Dark Knight* · 06-12-2000, 03:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Generalfeldmarschall:
the population is for the largest city. i have some big cities in my empire. one has 450,000 inhabitants... of course, using swift helped a little

Cheater!

I agree with Henrique that the city growth rates are dissappointing. Remember that London reached 1 million inhabitants around 1800. It seems impossible for London to approach this number in the game (at least in the grand campaign).

Doomdark · 06-12-2000, 10:14

The problem is especially annoying considering the stated growth percentage in the game. At +3 Stability the game usually claims that the growth is about 7-10%. Per year? Per 10 years? Whatever the case, 7% apparently does not mean the same thing in colonies as it does in the home country. In fact, the figure seems completely disconnected from the actual growth rate.

/Doomie

driedcow · 06-12-2000, 13:34

In GC, where I played Russia, in 1624, I looked at the population of London and it was around 83,000. I looked in the 1617.inc file and the population of London is 250,000. This is majorly f*cked up!!! Paradox, FIX THIS!!! What kind of historical game is this?! These cities have microscopic and unrealistic growth for this time period!

DanGuy · 07-12-2000, 01:27

Maybe it's not the total number of actual literal people. Perhaps it's the number of able bodied men, or adults (or whiners

), or each number represents 5 or 10 folk, or any number of other things I can't think of just now. I can easily see it being representative and not literal.

No matter what I'm looking forward to playing.

Regards,
Dan

driedcow · 07-12-2000, 13:14

Literal, or abstract or whatever. The math is bad and growth does not work well. Both sets of statistics are taken from the game itself, so there is no way that it could be a matter of 'representation.'

Johan · 07-12-2000, 13:36

It's a bug.

We're adressing it in the next patch.

/Johan

Henrique Duarte · 07-12-2000, 15:50

a reply
a good one

took a while...suppose it means you´re working on it...
any chance to give a decent population to Lisbon?
might screw game balance though?
...
well if you fix growth rate I´ll be happy...

Admiral Howe · 07-12-2000, 16:08

9000 in 1492 to roughly 12000 in 1617. Ouch, that's only a 0.25% growth rate. Which gives you a doubling time of 280 years or so. That's one slow growing town you had there.

I'm really looking forward to this game, and am glad (after a fashion) that items like this are being found before its North American release.

-AH

Octavian · 07-12-2000, 16:42

Quote:

Originally posted by DanGuy:
.

No matter what I'm looking forward to playing.

Regards,
Dan

and that you should...

its a great and fun game, despite some minor inconveniences, which I trust will be addressed in future patches.

------------------
Lev vel

driedcow · 08-12-2000, 00:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Johan:
It's a bug.

We're adressing it in the next patch.

/Johan

Merci Beaucoup, Johan. You are a God upon the earth (of EU, that is)!

04-12-2000, 20:36	#1
Henrique Duarte Second Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Portugal Posts: 150	Here is a small comparison of pop. growth of a big European city in the game versus historical record: City: Lisbon, Portugal Historical record (In: História de Portugal -1993. coord. José Matoso, vol 3 p. 234) 1527: 60.000 hab 1575-1600: 120.000 hab 1639: 180.000 hab Europa Universalis (grand campaign) Lisbon pop. evolution in a game played as Portugal (the city was never sieged or sacked and Portugal had reduced stability (<+3) for 40 months total: 1492: 9.000 hab 1617: +-12.000 hab 20-30% growth in more than 100 years, for a major colonial empire capital (for that time period at least) Now if we compare city growth with colony growth it becomes a joke! a 100 hab colony with a good growth rate becomes a city (700 hab) in 30-60 years, this means that it grows 7x in that time period! which clearly doesn´t happen in larger cities... It seems that city size also influences army supply levels and this means that if one plays a grand campaign, the army size by 1700 supported by most provinces will be much different from the one in a Mercantilismus scenario (were pop of a city in this scenario is usually much different from the pop of the same city in 1492 in the grand campaign) Please can someone from Paradox comment on the city growth issue, is it meant to be this way? (I´ve tried all the game versions and pop. growth worked the same way in all of them) One can still enjoy the game (a lot, I should add), if we don´t even look at the city numbers, but it is rather unsatisfying that a game feature that should add to the 'immersion' sentation gives the opposite feeling.

06-12-2000, 03:14	#2
Tom Major Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Memphis, TN, USA Posts: 658	Actually I have wondered also about the population figures given. What are they really to stand for? The population of the largest city in a province? The population of the province? I guess this may be in the manual, but until I have it in English I'm afraid I won't be able to really use that to figure it out.

06-12-2000, 03:35	#3
Generalfeldmarschall Major Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Republika Hrvatska Posts: 629	the population is for the largest city. i have some big cities in my empire. one has 450,000 inhabitants... of course, using swift helped a little ------------------ Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze Brüderlich zusammenhält. [This message has been edited by Generalfeldmarschall (edited 06-12-2000).]

06-12-2000, 10:14	#5
Doomdark P.O.P.E. Paradox Dev Team Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 1,817	The problem is especially annoying considering the stated growth percentage in the game. At +3 Stability the game usually claims that the growth is about 7-10%. Per year? Per 10 years? Whatever the case, 7% apparently does not mean the same thing in colonies as it does in the home country. In fact, the figure seems completely disconnected from the actual growth rate. /Doomie

06-12-2000, 13:34	#6
driedcow Colonel Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 915	In GC, where I played Russia, in 1624, I looked at the population of London and it was around 83,000. I looked in the 1617.inc file and the population of London is 250,000. This is majorly f*cked up!!! Paradox, FIX THIS!!! What kind of historical game is this?! These cities have microscopic and unrealistic growth for this time period!

07-12-2000, 01:27	#7
DanGuy Corporal Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 43	Maybe it's not the total number of actual literal people. Perhaps it's the number of able bodied men, or adults (or whiners ), or each number represents 5 or 10 folk, or any number of other things I can't think of just now. I can easily see it being representative and not literal. No matter what I'm looking forward to playing. Regards, Dan

07-12-2000, 13:14	#8
driedcow Colonel Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 915	Literal, or abstract or whatever. The math is bad and growth does not work well. Both sets of statistics are taken from the game itself, so there is no way that it could be a matter of 'representation.'

07-12-2000, 13:36	#9
Johan The Master Paradox Dev Team Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Always two there are... Posts: 12,564	It's a bug. We're adressing it in the next patch. /Johan

07-12-2000, 15:50	#10
Henrique Duarte Second Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Portugal Posts: 150	a reply a good one took a while...suppose it means you´re working on it... any chance to give a decent population to Lisbon? might screw game balance though? ... well if you fix growth rate I´ll be happy...

07-12-2000, 16:08	#11
Admiral Howe Paleoforumgoer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Chico, CA, USA Posts: 262	9000 in 1492 to roughly 12000 in 1617. Ouch, that's only a 0.25% growth rate. Which gives you a doubling time of 280 years or so. That's one slow growing town you had there. I'm really looking forward to this game, and am glad (after a fashion) that items like this are being found before its North American release. -AH