Bede and Irish Missionaries

[Innocent]

Hi folks, I'm writing my senior history paper on The Venerable Bede and his portrayal of the Irish missionaries in his Ecclesiastical History of the English Speaking People, is anyone around here familiar with any good sources concerning other early Irish missionaries to Gaul?

I am hoping to show that there was a unique Irish spirituality that was part of their success in their missionary efforts both in England and in Gaul, to counter an argument by A.T. Thacker that Bede casts the Irish in a Gregorian light in order to praise them as the founders of his monastery, and the men who successfully converted Northumbria.

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by Innocent

I am hoping to show that there was a unique Irish spirituality that was part of their success in their missionary efforts both in England and in Gaul, to counter an argument by A.T. Thacker that Bede casts the Irish in a Gregorian light in order to praise them as the founders of his monastery, and the men who successfully converted Northumbria.

Are you sure you've got that right? Bede did not like the Celtic church and portrayed them in a bad light or even forgot to mention any of their achievements in his book.

[Sarmatia1871]

Originally Posted by Innocent

I am hoping to show that there was a unique Irish spirituality that was part of their success in their missionary efforts both in England and in Gaul, to counter an argument by A.T. Thacker that Bede casts the Irish in a Gregorian light in order to praise them as the founders of his monastery, and the men who successfully converted Northumbria.

Not really my period, but from a general historical writing perspective, it's usually an idea to find and read the relevant sources (both primary and secondary) before coming up with the conclusion.

[Innocent]

Originally Posted by Gordy

Are you sure you've got that right? Bede did not like the Celtic church and portrayed them in a bad light or even forgot to mention any of their achievements in his book.

Indeed, that is what makes this such an interesting topic. If you have read the Historia you may recall that Bede portrays the Irish missionaries, especially Aidan, in a far more positive light than he portrays Augustine and the Roman missionaries (with the possible exception of Paulinus, who appears in some ways like the Irish missionaries). This contrasts drastically with his distaste for the Irish church and is the reason that I am working ont his topic. He also does not fail to point out the successes of the Irish missionaries in Northumbria, but he does dismiss their efforts in Sussex, I think to make the Northumbrian missionaries who converted it look better, and as is often claimed he does nothing to site his Irish sources.

Originally Posted by Sarmatia1871

Not really my period, but from a general historical writing perspective, it's usually an idea to find and read the relevant sources (both primary and secondary) before coming up with the conclusion.

I don't really want to go through and detail my research to this point (I worked on it for a few months a few years ago, and have been working on it for a few months so far this year), I have a secondary source that points toward this conclusion but I have not been able to find any applicable primary sources that make this point. Considering where I am in the writing stage, I am prepared to rely on the conclusions of a secondary source but I was hoping to find either further secondary sources to back the claim or else, perferably, a primary source. I still think I am on as firm of ground as Mr. Thacker who is working against the grain of previous scholarly work in asserting that Bede sees the Irish missionaries as representing a Gregorian rather than an Irish spirituality.

[AKjeldsen]

I'm not that well versed in the early MA, but my first suggestion would be writings by or about some of the early Irish missionaries, such as S. Columbanus or S. Columba.

Also, I could imagine that Gilda's Ruin or maybe some of his other writings (what's left of them, anyway) might be useful, but I'll confess I've never actually read anything by him, so I'm not sure about that.

Finally, some of my old notes say that Paul the Deacon has written something related to the subject, but unfortunately, I didn't write down what it was.

Originally Posted by Sarmatia1871

Not really my period, but from a general historical writing perspective, it's usually an idea to find and read the relevant sources (both primary and secondary) before coming up with the conclusion.

What a strange way to do things.

[Innocent]

Originally Posted by AKjeldsen

I'm not that well versed in the early MA, but my first suggestion would be writings by or about some of the early Irish missionaries, such as S. Columbanus or S. Columba.

Also, I could imagine that Gilda's Ruin or maybe some of his other writings (what's left of them, anyway) might be useful, but I'll confess I've never actually read anything by him, so I'm not sure about that.

Finally, some of my old notes say that Paul the Deacon has written something related to the subject, but unfortunately, I didn't write down what it was.


What a strange way to do things.

Thanks, most of the stuff I have looked at deals with Saint Columbanus or Columba, I suppose you're right that I should look for at hagiographies of these two or works authored by them (but I suspect the later will be less productive for my purposes). I'll also take a look into the Paul the Deacon work see if anything comes up without too much work. At the moment I can't spend too long on primary sources due to time contraints, but hopefully this will be fruitful.

Thanks again for the help.

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by Innocent

If you have read the Historia you may recall that Bede portrays the Irish missionaries, especially Aidan, in a far more positive light than he portrays Augustine and the Roman missionaries (with the possible exception of Paulinus, who appears in some ways like the Irish missionaries).

This is OT but bizarrely in the North of England there is almost as much stuff named after St Aidan as better known saints like Paul or Peter.

[Innocent]

Originally Posted by Gordy

This is OT but bizarrely in the North of England there is almost as much stuff named after St Aidan as better known saints like Paul or Peter.

With good reason, he was the one responsibile for the conversion of northern England, especially Northumbria, and his monastery at Iona founded many of the other prominent ones in the region. Many of Bede's passages within the Historia could even be considered hagiographical with regards to Aidan, although he did not write a specifically hagiagraphical text on him.

He's such an interesting figure, and is the focus of most of my work on the Irish side (I also deal with the Romans to show the contrast in Bede's work) and, as you pointed out earlier, it just doesn't fit properly into Bede's world view.

[Olaus Petrus]

Why Bede sometimes seem to be hostile towards Irish monks is direct consequence from synod of Whitby (664). Before that Northumbria was mostly Christianised by Irish monks of Iona, who founded monastery of Lindisfarne. But Synod of Whitby broke the contacts between Irish and Northumbrians, because Irish monks didn't accept the Roman way to count the time of Easter. Irish monks left Northumbria and Northumbria committed more strongly into Roman tradition of Christianity, although there was still some ways of Celtic Christianity which survived. AFAIK Iona was the last place where Celtic tradition of counting date of Easter survived.

This is ofcourse oversimplification, but this issue seemed to ruin the relations of Northumbria and Iona.

[Cat Frightener]

To an extent, but in 715 even Iona accepted the Roman method.

I'd say that his attitude to the Irish varies, but he's not half as critical of them as he is of the Welsh. If you look at passages like the battle of Chester, he actually seems to back pagan Angles rather than Christians, and this seems largely to be because the Britons didn't try and convert the Germanic invaders.

I think there's a fair amount that's productive in Columbanus' writings - his letters anyway, the poetry traditionally assigned to him is now believed to have been written at least a century after his death. Certainly if you contrast his letters with Jonas' life you get a different viewpoint entirely, largely I think because by the 640s Columbanus' views on Easter were a bit of an embarassment to Bobbio, as it was becoming more continental and less Irish-influenced.

Also, the founders of his monastery? Wearmouth-Jarrow was the work of Benedict Biscop, who was not an Irishman.

Sorry I can't think of many Irish missionary saints aside from those you've mentioned, although you could explore the fact that Bede has just about every kingdom relapse into paganism once and it's normally the Irish who re-convert them, you could explore the alleged Irish roots of the monastery of Malmesbury, and you could look at the Anglo-Saxon missionary efforts in Germany and contrast them with the Irish methods.

[Earl Uhtred]

Thanks for the vote of confidence VJ. I was spectating as it happens.