Copenhagen and Forts question

petester · 24-02-2006, 00:06

Howdy all. I am looking at defending Copenhagen from a land invasion from Germany (lubeck) - ie, it is a river crossing, vice a "beach assault".

Does anyone know the best fort to construct to defend? ie, are Coastal forts effective against river crossings as well - or to defend this zone, am I going to be forced to build both?

Oh. And does anyone remember offhand what the additional penalities are for the attacker for a river crossing and also the beach assault?

GermanWehrmacht · 24-02-2006, 00:12

if the Germans are going to attack the Danish Capitol via river crossing than no the coastal defenses wont help coastal defenses are helpful against sea invasions not crossing the river you should build Land Forts thats if you have exactly a year to get them up before the Germans attack and make sure you have troops stationed there with the Forts

Jemisi · 24-02-2006, 01:54

You need the land forts. The problem will come if he then tries an amphibious effort.

alanschu · 24-02-2006, 02:23

At which point he is typically already suffering a huge penalty anyways. Make sure to defend Kolding as well.

HalfTon Midget · 24-02-2006, 02:45

As far as I know the coastal fort protects against any water-based attack, whether it's an amphib landing or river crossing.

ArschGranate · 24-02-2006, 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfTon Midget

As far as I know the coastal fort protects against any water-based attack, whether it's an amphib landing or river crossing.

Landforts protects attacks across rivers. Only true amphibious assaults (involving boats or straits) are covered by coastal forts.

But isn't an attack from Fyn (the province between Kolding and Cph) considered an amph. attack? It may just be my shot-out memory thats playing tricks, but none the less I think the gap bewteen Fyn and Cph is considered a strait. In that case Coastal Forts would work for you there.

badvoice · 24-02-2006, 11:55

I would build forts in kolding and some inf, then i would build a fleet that is quite large. This fleet would be in the sea to prevent the germans from crossing to copenhagen. With the fleet in the strait between copenhagen and germany you wouldnt need to build any forts in copenhagen. But If denmark dont get any help they would be losing, cause the germans have so many troops and resources.

john heidle · 24-02-2006, 15:07

The connection between Lubeck and Copenhagen is a strait. Straits have an odd combination of land rules with amphib assault efficiencies and naval blockade rules.

The land rules allow for a normal land attack which could mean 24 div without penalties with a FM leading the attack and an HQ present.

An attack across a strait, however, uses the amphib assault efficiency rules, meaning it is much less efficient than a normal land attack. The level of completed marine div research determines the efficiency of these attacks.

Because the attack is across a strait, the attack can be stopped by the presence in the coastal seazone of enemy naval units. As long as Denmark has naval units in the coastal seazone between Copenhagen and Lubeck, it can block the land unit movement. A German attack can also be carried out amphib assault as others point out.

So I guess that would mean that a coastal fort would be the best choice, but a determined German attack would likely wipe out any Danish attempts to block it. Overwhelming force can be applied by the Germans unless the Royal Navy happens to be in that seazone.

Look for a blue square in the province information box in the upper right hand corner. It will tell you what seazone governs passage across that strait. A blue line means river while a blue square means strait.

petester · 24-02-2006, 16:21

Hey. Thanks everyone. The seazone "Oresund" which is between Copenhagen and swedish Malmo is controlled by Copenhagen. ie, owner of Copenhagen decides who can pass.

The connection from Lubeck and Copenhagen is a River. There is no indication that any fleet inside the "Store Balt" seazone (between Copenhagen and Lubeck) will prevent passage. A fleet will prevent movement along the danish islands & over to Malmo. This is dangerous, however, as a german fleet can transit the canal in Kiel, from the Helgoland Blight into the Store Balt. There is no indication that the owner of Copenhagen controls the Store Balt seazone, but I seem to remember during my time as germany facing this very thing. So it will actually be interesting to see.

I am actually playing an ahistorical Scandanavia - which for fun is now allied with the Allies. (hee) and to provide more of a challange, Japan and USSR are now allies. I am planning on starting a two front war to keep things interesting.

Was just wondering if there was a feasible hope of defending Copenhagen against the Germans or whether I would be forced to solely defent Malmo.

khumak · 24-02-2006, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by badvoice

I would build forts in kolding and some inf, then i would build a fleet that is quite large.

Build a large fleet as Denmark? I really don't see the point in that. If you're going to hold off the Germans you need INF and maybe land forts. That's about all you'll be able to afford. Maybe some CAS since they're fairly cheap.

Dalwin · 25-02-2006, 05:08

Even though land forts defend against river crossings, I don't think any of the entries to Copenhagen are actually river crossings. I think they are all straights.

I have always played with the understanding that land forts in Copenhagen would have the sole effect of defending against air attack. Any land attacks would be vs the coastal forts. This might take some testing while observing the combat modifiers to be sure.

john heidle · 25-02-2006, 14:29

Copenhagen to Lubeck is a river crossing. That was changed in from 1.1 to 1.2 as per the readme.txt:
- The connection between Copenhagen and Lübeck is now a river.

1.2 also added the events for Germany to conquer Denmark without a fight, so most of us who fought there remember the 1.1 strait and fighting there.

The connections from Copenhagen to Odenese or to Malmo, however, are straits.

As to the original question, with a river crossing Germany can take Copenhagen just about any time that they want. Your only hope as Denmark would be to build up lots of land fort levels, province AA, and inf div and hope that this deters the German AI from attacking you. If there's a battle, you will lose, so try to deter them from attacking.

Note also that there is an event for the capitulation of Denmark in the large \db\events\hoi2.txt file:
# German occupation of Denmark
event = {id = 93

If I am reading it right, a human Denmark played can refuse to capitulate without hardly any consequences.

24-02-2006, 00:06	#1
petester Captain Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 474	Copenhagen and Forts question Howdy all. I am looking at defending Copenhagen from a land invasion from Germany (lubeck) - ie, it is a river crossing, vice a "beach assault". Does anyone know the best fort to construct to defend? ie, are Coastal forts effective against river crossings as well - or to defend this zone, am I going to be forced to build both? Oh. And does anyone remember offhand what the additional penalities are for the attacker for a river crossing and also the beach assault?

24-02-2006, 00:12	#2
GermanWehrmacht Lt. General Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Glendale, Arizona Posts: 1,442	if the Germans are going to attack the Danish Capitol via river crossing than no the coastal defenses wont help coastal defenses are helpful against sea invasions not crossing the river you should build Land Forts thats if you have exactly a year to get them up before the Germans attack and make sure you have troops stationed there with the Forts

24-02-2006, 01:54	#3
Jemisi Lt. General Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 1,440	You need the land forts. The problem will come if he then tries an amphibious effort.

24-02-2006, 02:23	#4
alanschu Major Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 674	At which point he is typically already suffering a huge penalty anyways. Make sure to defend Kolding as well.

24-02-2006, 02:45	#5
HalfTon Midget First Lieutenant Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Maine, USA Posts: 276	As far as I know the coastal fort protects against any water-based attack, whether it's an amphib landing or river crossing.

24-02-2006, 11:55	#7
badvoice Colonel Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Oslo Posts: 851	I would build forts in kolding and some inf, then i would build a fleet that is quite large. This fleet would be in the sea to prevent the germans from crossing to copenhagen. With the fleet in the strait between copenhagen and germany you wouldnt need to build any forts in copenhagen. But If denmark dont get any help they would be losing, cause the germans have so many troops and resources.

24-02-2006, 15:07	#8
john heidle [retired] FM Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 10,274	The connection between Lubeck and Copenhagen is a strait. Straits have an odd combination of land rules with amphib assault efficiencies and naval blockade rules. The land rules allow for a normal land attack which could mean 24 div without penalties with a FM leading the attack and an HQ present. An attack across a strait, however, uses the amphib assault efficiency rules, meaning it is much less efficient than a normal land attack. The level of completed marine div research determines the efficiency of these attacks. Because the attack is across a strait, the attack can be stopped by the presence in the coastal seazone of enemy naval units. As long as Denmark has naval units in the coastal seazone between Copenhagen and Lubeck, it can block the land unit movement. A German attack can also be carried out amphib assault as others point out. So I guess that would mean that a coastal fort would be the best choice, but a determined German attack would likely wipe out any Danish attempts to block it. Overwhelming force can be applied by the Germans unless the Royal Navy happens to be in that seazone. Look for a blue square in the province information box in the upper right hand corner. It will tell you what seazone governs passage across that strait. A blue line means river while a blue square means strait.

24-02-2006, 16:21	#9
petester Captain Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 474	Hey. Thanks everyone. The seazone "Oresund" which is between Copenhagen and swedish Malmo is controlled by Copenhagen. ie, owner of Copenhagen decides who can pass. The connection from Lubeck and Copenhagen is a River. There is no indication that any fleet inside the "Store Balt" seazone (between Copenhagen and Lubeck) will prevent passage. A fleet will prevent movement along the danish islands & over to Malmo. This is dangerous, however, as a german fleet can transit the canal in Kiel, from the Helgoland Blight into the Store Balt. There is no indication that the owner of Copenhagen controls the Store Balt seazone, but I seem to remember during my time as germany facing this very thing. So it will actually be interesting to see. I am actually playing an ahistorical Scandanavia - which for fun is now allied with the Allies. (hee) and to provide more of a challange, Japan and USSR are now allies. I am planning on starting a two front war to keep things interesting. Was just wondering if there was a feasible hope of defending Copenhagen against the Germans or whether I would be forced to solely defent Malmo.

25-02-2006, 05:08	#11
Dalwin Lt. General Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: North Dakota Posts: 1,557	Even though land forts defend against river crossings, I don't think any of the entries to Copenhagen are actually river crossings. I think they are all straights. I have always played with the understanding that land forts in Copenhagen would have the sole effect of defending against air attack. Any land attacks would be vs the coastal forts. This might take some testing while observing the combat modifiers to be sure.

25-02-2006, 14:29	#12
john heidle [retired] FM Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 10,274	Copenhagen to Lubeck is a river crossing. That was changed in from 1.1 to 1.2 as per the readme.txt: - The connection between Copenhagen and Lübeck is now a river. 1.2 also added the events for Germany to conquer Denmark without a fight, so most of us who fought there remember the 1.1 strait and fighting there. The connections from Copenhagen to Odenese or to Malmo, however, are straits. As to the original question, with a river crossing Germany can take Copenhagen just about any time that they want. Your only hope as Denmark would be to build up lots of land fort levels, province AA, and inf div and hope that this deters the German AI from attacking you. If there's a battle, you will lose, so try to deter them from attacking. Note also that there is an event for the capitulation of Denmark in the large \db\events\hoi2.txt file: # German occupation of Denmark event = {id = 93 If I am reading it right, a human Denmark played can refuse to capitulate without hardly any consequences.