Claimable duchy & kingdom setups for CK 1.05

[Byakhiam]

After long struggles in S&M, we did reach some conclusions for a new duchy setup. The current product of our discussions is thus far, sorted (roughly) by kingdom:

Ireland:
- Ulster (blue): Ulaid, Tir Connaill, Tir Eoghain
- Connacht (green): Sligo, Mayo, Galway
- Munster (white): Tuadmumu, Desmumu, Urmumu
- Leinster (yellow): Osraige, Laigin
- Meath (purple): Mide, Dublin

Scotland:
- Orkney (cyan): Shetland, Orkney
- Isles (red): Western Isles, Ross, Man
- Moray (purple): Caithness, Sutherland, Moray
- Albany (green): Buchan, Mar, Angus, Atholl, Fife
- Argyll (white): Argyll, Strathclyde
- Lothian (blue): Lothian, Berwick
- Galloway (cyan): Carrick, Galloway, Cumberland

England:
- Northumberland (yellow): Northumberland, Durham
- Lancaster (blue): Westmorland, Lancaster, Chester, Derby
- York (white): York, Leicester, Lincoln
- Norfolk (purple): Norfolk, Suffolk
- Bedford (red): Bedford, Essex
- Buckingham (green): Oxford, Northampton
- Hereford (yellow): Warwick, Hereford, Shrewsbury
- Gloucester (cyan): Gloucester, Bristol, Salisbury
- Canterbury (blue): Surrey, Kent, Sussex
- Somerset (purple): Hampshire, Dorset, Somerset
- Cornwall (red): Devon, Exeter, Cornwall

Wales:
- Gwynedd (green): Perfeddwlad, Gwynedd, Powys
- Deheubarth (white): Dyfed, Glamorgan, Gwent

France:
- Brittany (yellow): Cornouaille, Leon, Vannes, Penthierve, Rennes, Nantes
- Normandy (white): Avranches, Evreux, Arques, Vexin, Eu
- Flanders (red): Boulogne, Guines, Yperen, Brugge, Gent, Artois
- Valois (cyan): Vermandois, Amiens, Ile de France
- Champagne (yellow): Troyes, Auxerre, Reims
- Orleans (purple): Sens, Chartres, Orleans, Blois
- Anjou (blue): Maine, Anjou, Vendome
- Poitou (green): Thouars, Poitiers, Saintogne, Lusignan
- Aquitaine (white): Angouleme, Perigord, Bordeaux, Agen
- Gascogne (purple): Albret, Armagnac, Foix, Bearn, Labourd
- Toulouse (green): Rouergue, Toulouse, Carcassone, Narbonne, Montpellier, Viviers
- Auvergne (blue): Auvergne, Gevaudan
- Bourbon (red): Bourbon, Limousin, La Marche
- Berry (cyan): Tourraine, Bourges
- Burgundy (white): Nevers, Dijon, Macon, Charolais

Aragon:
- Aragon (white): Calatayud, Zaragoza, Albarracin, Jaca
- Barcelona (blue): Lleida, Empuries, Barcelona, Tarragona, Urgell, Rosello
- Mallorca (yellow): Mallorca, Menorca
- Valencia (green): Castellon, Valencia, Denia

Castile:
- Navarre (cyan): Navarra, Rioja
- Castille (red): Viscaya, Burgos, Soria, Valladolid
- Toledo (blue): Toledo, Molina, Cuenca
- Cordoba (white): Aracena, Cordoba, La Mancha, Calatrava
- Sevilla (green): Niebla, Cadiz, Sevilla, Algericas
- Granada (blue): Granada, Almeria, Malaga
- Murcia (purple): Almansa, Murcia

Leon:
- Galicia (purple): Compostela, Santiago, El Bierzo
- Leon (yellow): Leon, Zamora, Salamanca
- Badajoz (purple): Badajoz, Caceres, Alcantara, Plasencia
- Asturias (blue): Asturias de Santillana, Asturias de Oviedo

Portugal:
- Porto (green): Porto, Braganza, Coimbra, Castelo Branco
- Beja (cyan): Lisboa, Evora, Alcacer do Sal, Mertola
- Algarve (red): Silves, Faro

Burgundy:
- Dauphine (yellow): Forez, Lyon, Dauphine Viennois
- Provence (red): Saluces, Nice, Forcalquier, Provence, Venaissin
- Savoy (cyan):Valais, Geneve, Savoie, Piemonte
- Upper Burgundy (red): Neuchatel, Besancon, Chalons, Aargau, Bern, Schwyz

Germany:
- Holland (cyan): Zeeland, Holland, Westfriesland, Frisia
- Gelre (white): Sticht, Gelre, Ostfriesland
- Brabant (blue): Breda, Brabant, Hainaut
- Luxembourg (green): Luxembourg, Loon, Liege
- Lower Lorraine (purple): Andernach, Köln, Jülich, Kleve
- Saxony (yellow): Münster, Göttingen, Osnabrück, Oldenburg, Bremen
- Brunswick (blue): Braunschweig, Celle, Lüneberg
- Holstein (cyan): Lübeck, Hamburg, Holstein
- Mecklenburg (green): Mecklemburg, Werle, Rostock
- Pomerania (yellow): Rügen, Wolgast, Stettin
- Brandenburg (white): Altmark, Anhalt, Brandenburg
- Meissen (red): Weimar, Plauen, Meissen, Lausitz
- Thuringia (green): Nassau, Thüringen
- Franconia (cyan): Leiningen, Franken, Ansbach, Mainz
- Austria (white): Morava, Passau, Österreich, Steiermark
- Bavaria (blue): Niederbayern, Oberbayern, Kempten, Nürnberg, Salzburg
- Swabia (yellow): Fürstenburg, Württemberg, Ulm, Schwaben
- Alsace (purple): Nordgau, Sundgau
- Baden (green): Baden, Breisgau
- Upper Lorraine (blue): Lorraine, Pfalz, Metz, Saintois, Verdun
- Tirol (cyan): Innsbruck, St. Gallen, Trent, Tirol
- Carinthia (red): Kärnten, Krain, Istria

Italy:
- Verona (purple): Treviso, Verona, Mantua, Padova
- Venice (yellow): Aquileia, Venezia
- Lombardy (blue): Brescia, Cremona, Pavia, Lombardia, Grisons, Chur
- Genoa (green): Genoa, Montferrato
- Modena (white): Parma, Modena
- Ferrara (red): Bologna, Ferrara, Ravenna
- Ancona (green): Ancona, Urbino
- Spoleto (blue): Spoleto, Orvieto
- Tuscany (cyan): Orbetello, Siena, Firenze, Lucca
- Pisa (yellow): Livorno, Piombino
- Sardinia (purple): Corsica, Cagliari, Arborea

Sicily:
- Apulia (yellow): Foggia, Apulia, Bari, Lecce
- Benevento (purple): Capua, Benevento
- Salerno (green): Salerno, Naples
- Calabria (white): Taranto, Consenza, Reggio
- Sicily (blue): Messina, Siracusa, Palermo, Agrigento, Trapani

Byzantium:
- Coloneia (purple): Melitene, Coloneia
- Trebizond (white): Trapezous, Theodosiopolis, Chaldea
- Armeniacon (cyan): Amisos, Sinope
- Charsianon (blue): Galatia, Kaisereia, Tyana
- Armenia Minor (red): Lykandos, Teluch, Adana, Tarsos, Seleukeia
- Anatolia (green): Ikonion, Dorylaion
- Nicaea (purple): Nikaea, Nikomedeia, Prusa, Kyzikos
- Thracesia (cyan): Laodikea, Sozopolis
- Cibyrrhaeot (white): Attaleia, Lykia, Rhodos
- Samos (blue): Ephesos, Smyrna, Samos
- Aegean Islands (red): Abydos, Naxos, Lesbos, Euboia
- Crete (purple): Kaneia, Chandax
- Achaea (green): Achaia, Korinthos, Monemvasia, Methone
- Athens (cyan): Hellas, Demetrias, Athenai
- Epirus (blue): Corfu, Árta, Épeiros
- Dyrrachion (purple): Dyrrachion, Ochrid, Strymon
- Thessalonica (yellow): Thessalia, Thessalonike, Chalkidike
- Macedonia (green): Philippopolis, Adrinopolis
- Thrace (white): Kaliopolis, Thrake, Byzantion

Bulgaria:
- Karvuna (red): Mesembria, Karvuna, Constantia, Galaz
- Turnovo (cyan): Dorostotum, Tyrnovo, Serdica, Nikopolis

Serbia:
- Vidin (green): Vidin, Naissus
- Rashka (blue): Rashka, Hum
- Dioclea (red): Ragusa, Zeta

Croatia:
- Dalmatia (green): Split, Zadar
- Croatia (white): Zachlumia, Senj, Veglia
- Bosnia (yellow): Usora, Rama
- Slavonia (cyan): Krizevci, Zagreb, Varadzin

Hungary:
- Temes (purple): Temes, Bacs, Belgrade
- Slavonia (cyan): Krizevci, Zagreb, Varadzin
- Pecs (blue): Pecs, Fejer, Szekezfehervar, Vas
- Estzergom (yellow): Sopron, Pressburg, Estzergom
- Pest (green): Hever, Pest, Csanad
- Transylvania (white): Szekelyfold, Bihar, Feher
- Ungvár (cyan): Marmaros, Bereg, Abauj, Saris
- Nyitra (red): Orava, Gemer, Nitra, Trencin

Bohemia:
- Bohemia (purple): Cheb, Usti nad Labem, Liberec, Praha, Plzen
- Moravia (cyan): Opava, Ostrava, Hradec Kralove

Poland:
- Lesser Poland (blue): Krakowskie, Cieszyn, Sacz, Sandomierskie
- Masovia (red): Podlasie, Yatvyagi, Czersk, Plock
- Kuyavia (green): Kujawy, Sieradzko-Leczyckie
- Silesia (yellow): Lower Silesia, Upper Silesia
- Greater Poland (cyan): Opole, Poznanskie, Lubusz, Kaliskie, Gnieznienskie
- Pomeralia (blue): Slupsk, Danzig, Chelminskie
- Prussia (white): Marienburg, Sambia, Scalovia, Galindia

Denmark:
- Slesvig (white): Slesvig, Jutland
- Sjælland (purple): Fyn, Sjaelland
- Skåne (red): Bornhold, Skåne, Halland

Norway:
- Østlandet (cyan): Akershus, Vestfold, Oppland
- Vestlandet (green): Agder, Telemark, Rogaland, Bergenshus
- Trøndelag (red): Trøndelag, Hdemark, Naumadal, Hålogaland
- Jämtland (white): Jämtland, Herjedalen

Sweden:
- Småland (cyan): Finnveden, Kalmar Län, Öland, Småland
- Västergötland (blue): Västergötland, Viken, Dal
- Norrland (cyan): Lappland, Västerbotten, Ångermand, Medelpad, Hälsingland
- Bergslagen (purple): Dalarna, Västmanland, Värmland
- Östergötland (green): Närke, Östergötland, Södermanland
- Uppland (yellow): Gästrikland, Uppland, Åland

Kingdomless North:
- Iceland (red): Vestisland, Austisland
- Finland (blue): Finland, Satakunta, Nyland, Österbotten, Viborg, Tavasts
- Karelen (green): Karelen, Kexholm, Savolaks, Onega, Kajanaborg, Kemi, Kola
- Esthonia (red): Narva, Reval
- Livonia (white): Dorpat, Lettigalians, Ösel, Livs
- Bjarmia (white): Trans-portage, North Dvina, Bjarmia, Samoyeds
- Hlynov (green): Urga, Syrj, Hlynov, Romny, Veliky Ustug

Lithuania:
- Courland (purple): Kurs, Zemigalians
- Lithuania (cyan): Sudovia, Aykshayts
- Samogitia (yellow): Zhmud, Memel

Russia:
- Beloozero (purple): Zaozerye, Chud, Vologda, Beloozero, Bezhetsky Verh
- Novgorod (yellow): Novgorod, Vodi, Torzhok, Pskov, Staraya Russa, Velikiye Luki
- Vladimir-Suzdal (blue): Vladimir, Suzdal, Nizhny Novgorod, Gorodez, Galich Mersky
- Yaroslavl (cyan): Kostroma, Yaroslavl
- Moscow (cyan): Moskva, Bryansk
- Ryazan (green): Kolomna, Ryazan, Murom
- Rostov (white): Uglich, Pereyaslavl Zalessky, Rostov
- Smolensk (purple): Mstislavl, Smolensk
- Tver (green): Vyazma, Tver
- Turov-Pinsk (green): Pinsk, Turov
- Polotsk (blue): West Dvina, Polotsk, Jacwiez
- Vitebsk (white): Vitebsk, Orsha, Minsk
- Chernigov (red): Lyubech, Chernigov
- Kiev (purple): Terebovl, Kiev, Korsun
- Pereyaslavl (white): Pereyaslavl, Sharukan
- Galich (yellow): Galich, Peremyshl
- Volhynia (white): Vladimir Volynsky, Berestye
- Novgorod-Seversky (yellow): Novgorod Seversky, Pronsk

Steppes:
- Bulgar (yellow): Kama, Votyaki, Bilyar, Bulgar, Southern Ural, Bashkirs, Syrt, Zyriane
- Cheremisa (red): Mozhaysk, Merya, Grassland Cheremisa, Mountain Cheremisa, Chuvash, Burtasy, Mordva
- Sarkel (purple): Sugrov, Desht-i-Kipchak, Khopyor, Sarkel, Don Portage
- Itil (cyan): Yaik, Uzens, Lower Volga, Saray, Itil, Ryn Desert
- Alania (blue): Kuma, Alania, Manych, Yegorlyk, Sarpa
- Azov (white): Tana, Azov, Kuban
- Moldavia (blue): Birlad, Pereschen, Belgorod, Olvia
- Crimea (cyan): Oleshye, Chorlitza, Lower Dniepr, Crimea, Lukomorie, Lower Don
- Wallachia (yellow): Tirgoviste, Turnu, Severin
- Khwarizm (red): Aral, Emba, Khwarizm, Mangyshlak, Ust Urt
- Bukhara (cyan): Bukhara, Kara Kum, Maverannahr
- Merv (yellow): Turkmen, Merv, Dihistan

Caucasus:
- Abkhazia (yellow): Abkhazia, Imeretia, Kasogs
- Armenia (cyan): Ani, Dwin, Vaspurkan
- Kartli (red): Kakheti, Kartli, Tao, Guria
- Derbent (purple): Albania, Semender, Derbent

Middle East:
- Sinai (cyan): Farama, El Arish, Sinai, Eilat
- Oultrejourdain (red): Negev, Monreal, Kerak
- Jaffa-Ascalon (green): Darum, Beershab, Ascalon, Jaffa
- Jerusalem (purple): Hebron, Jerusalem, Acre
- Galilee (blue): Tiberias, Tyrus, Safed, Beirut
- Tripoli (yellow): Baalbek, Tripoli, Tortosa
- Antioch (green): Archa, Antiocheia, Alexandretta
- Edessa (white): Edessa, Aintab, Tell Bashir
- Khorasan (blue): Khorasan, Qohistan, Gurgan, Nishapur, Lut
- Sistan (purple): Sistan, Hormuz, Kerman, Darab, Laristan
- Fars (yellow): Fars, Hendjan, Khozistan
- Esfahan (green): Shiraz, Avhaz, Esfahan, Yadz
- Hamadan (white): Hamadan, Rayy, Qom
- Mazandaran (purple): Qwivir, Tabaristan, Mazandaran
- Kermanshah (cyan): Luristan, Qazwin, Dailam, Al Miqdadiyah
- Tabriz (red): Gilan, Tabriz, Oromieh
- Azerbaijan (green): Azerbaijan, Shemakha, Suenik, Shirvan
- Mesopotamia (yellow): Karin, Mesopotamia, Taron, Amida, Nisibin
- Mosul (blue): Bira, Al Jazira, Mosul, Sinjar, Kurdistan, Al Bichri
- Aleppo (cyan): Aleppo, Homs, Asas, Hama, Palmyra
- Syria (purple): Tadmor, Suwaida, Syria, Druz
- Damascus (white): Damascus, Al Malraq, Irbid, Amman
- Arabia Petrae (white): Al'Aqabah, Tabuk, Maan, Petra
- Arabia Felix (green): Mecca, Medina, Hijaz, Al Jawf
- Arabia Deserta (cyan): Ar'ar, Madaba, Az Zarga, Al Habbariyah, Al Nadjaf
- Babylon (green): Euphrates, Kirkuk, Deir, Baghdad, Karbala
- Tigris (red): Al Amarah, Tigris, Ilam, Al Nasiryah
- Basra (blue): Basra, Kuwait, Rummah, Kula
- Damman (white): Damman, Al Hasa, Bahrein

North Africa:
- Tripolitania (purple): Djerba, Tripolitana, Leptis Magna, Syrte
- Cyrenaica (yellow): Benghazi, Cyrenaica, Senoussi, Tobruk
- Alexandria (red): Al Alamayn, Quattara, Alexandria, Buhairya, Gizeh
- Aswan (yellow): Aswan, Sudan, Nubia
- Cairo (purple): Quena, Asyut, Cairo, Sarqihya
- Damietta (blue): Gabiyaha, Delta, Manupura, Pelusia
- Tangiers (yellow): Cebta, Tangiers, Infa
- Marrakech (blue): Massat, Marrakech, Anti-Atlas, Ifni, Tassaret
- Fes (cyan): Fes, Figuig, El Rif, Snassen
- Alger (red): Orania, Tlemcen, Hanyan, Atlas Mnt, Lemdiyya, Al Djazair
- Kabylia (white): Beni Yanni, Kabilia, Tell Atlas, Mzab
- Constantine (blue): Bejaija, Constantine, Biskra, Annaba
- Tunis (cyan): Bizerte, Tunis, Medjerda, Kairwan, Mahdia, Gabes

Following provinces are without duchy: Gotland, Malta, Rome, Canaries

Following changes have been done to duchy setup since the beginning of the thread and are reflected on the setup above and map below:
- Verdun and Saintois from Champagne to Upper Lorraine
- Duchy of Alsace added
- Catalonia -> Barcelona
- Zaragoza -> Aragon
- Man from NONE to Isles
- Onega from Bjarmia to Karelia
- Salzburg from Styria to Bavaria
- Steiermark from Styria to Austria
- Duchy of Styria removed

The colours refer to this map:


Kingdom setup is mostly unchanged, following changes are in thought process:

- Renaming Naples to Sicily
- Moving Gotland to Sweden
- Moving Venezia, Corsica, Arborea and Cagliari to NONE
- Moving Rome, Krain and Istria to Italy
- Moving Veglia to Croatia
- Moving Niebla to Leon
- Moving Saintois and Verdun to Germany
- Moving Rioja, Almansa and Murcia to Castile
- Moving Navarra to Aragon
- Moving Holstein to Denmark
- Rehauling "fantasy" kingdoms to significantly bigger size for more challenge at Crusaders, except Jerusalem reduced in size to make it more attractive target for player

And it would look like this:


New "fantasy" kingdoms from left to right and down to up:
- Mauretania (purple)
- Africa (blue)
- Egypt (red)
- Arabia (blue)
- Jerusalem (yellow)
- Syria (white)
- Mesopotamia (green)
- Persia (cyan)
- Armenia (blue)
- Khazaria (yellow)
- Finland (purple)

Important info about Granada, read this post

[The Phoenix]

Couldn't Rome be included in any duchy, now that their "in"dependence issue is sorted out?

[Byakhiam]

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

Couldn't Rome be included in any duchy, now that their "in"dependence issue is sorted out?

It wasn't historically part of any of the surrounding duchies. If 1-prov duchies weren't banned, then it would warrant its own.

[Ayeshteni]

One error in Scotland Byakhiam. You have Faroes as part of Orkney Duchy, I think you meant 'Shetlands'

Though of course I still would like the Faroes to be part of the Orkney group.

Ayeshteni

[Byakhiam]

Fixed that Aye.

Also added (tentative) kingdom proposal to the first post.

[The Phoenix]

* I'd really like to see Finland added in the big, empty north (eating away at Russia a bit if necessary)
* Denmark is awfully small right now - didn't they hold land in northernmost Germany for a good while?
* Since Mauritania is something of a fantasy kingdom, why not include the Canary Islands in it?
* Bulgaria could use expansion; IIRC, the Byzantine province bordering their SW corner would probably fit well, and AFAIK the Wallachia/Moldau region was pretty close to them politically (not sure if it was closer to vassals than allies, though).
* I'd suggest naming "Africa" something like "Tunisia" or "Tripoli" instead; seems more accurate to me.
* Rome should be included in Italy.

* I am also of the opinion that (most of) Asia Minor / Anatolia should be assigned to the Kingdom of Rum, which would also be a secondary starting title of the Seljuk Turks; once they break up by the Gavelkind law event (if that's still in place, that is; if not, something should be there to replace it), we would see it appear properly in that area. Considering that Byzantium lost most of this territory rather soonishly after the game start and Rum held the territory for a rather long while, I think they are more entitled to the area than the Byzantines (especially as they right now can be recreated almost without holding any territory in Greece at all)...

[Garbon]

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

* Rome isn't included in Italy in the kingdom map.

Oh, was that not intentional?

[The Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Garbon

Oh, was that not intentional?

Strange. I could've half-sworn that I saw a line saying that Rome was moved to Italy...

[Byakhiam]

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

* I'd really like to see Finland added in the big, empty north (eating away at Russia a bit if necessary)

I'm thinking that maybe it could be added after all. It's a game, not ultra-strict history lesson after all and the vast emptiness there is boring.

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

* Denmark is awfully small right now - didn't they hold land in northernmost Germany for a good while?

All their land there was de jure part of HRE. In a similiar way as Normandy was technically vassal to France.

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

* Since Mauritania is something of a fantasy kingdom, why not include the Canary Islands in it?

Could do.

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

* Bulgaria could use expansion; IIRC, the Byzantine province bordering their SW corner would probably fit well, and AFAIK the Wallachia/Moldau region was pretty close to them politically (not sure if it was closer to vassals than allies, though).

Bulgaria is just as big as Serbia and just one prov behind Croatia.

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

* I'd suggest naming "Africa" something like "Tunisia" or "Tripoli" instead; seems more accurate to me.

Africa fits better with the classical names generally used for (most) fantasy kingdoms, as the Tunis region was classically called Africa.

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

* Rome should be included in Italy.

I partly forgot to add it to Italy on the map, so I didn't want changelog and graphical presentation to be mismatched.

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

* I am also of the opinion that (most of) Asia Minor / Anatolia should be assigned to the Kingdom of Rum, which would also be a secondary starting title of the Seljuk Turks; once they break up by the Gavelkind law event (if that's still in place, that is; if not, something should be there to replace it), we would see it appear properly in that area. Considering that Byzantium lost most of this territory rather soonishly after the game start and Rum held the territory for a rather long while, I think they are more entitled to the area than the Byzantines (especially as they right now can be recreated almost without holding any territory in Greece at all)...

Rum isn't very christian kingdom though and creatable titles are intended to be such that you could conceive christian king calling himself by.

[The Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Byakhiam

I'm thinking that maybe it could be added after all. It's a game, not ultra-strict history lesson after all and the vast emptiness there is boring.

Considering that a historical Sweden wouldn't hold enough land to create the title, I don't think it's that "unstrict"... and if they had converted "peacefully" like Lithuania (which they'll be able to do if my "pagan realm conversion" event suggestion is included, even if they start out pretty isolated and unlikely to do so), a kingdom seems like a likely outcome.

Bulgaria is just as big as Serbia and just one prov behind Croatia.

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1200.htm#%20here
This map suggests, though, that the province at the SW corner might be appropriate to add. We could also add Wallachia and still have Bulgaria form with just the current provinces, as 8/11 > 66%.
The topmost "none" provinces there (Moldau) could maybe be added to Rus as well.

I partly forgot to add it to Italy on the map, so I didn't want changelog and graphical presentation to be mismatched.

So it's included in the plans, yes?

Rum isn't very christian kingdom though and creatable titles are intended to be such that you could conceive christian king calling himself by.

What about "Rome" then? A Christian king conquering that area might also style himself as "king of Rome", just like the muslim Turks sort of did the same (except they used "sultan" instead) - particularly if he's a very powerful revolter against Byzantium or just a catholic crusader gone... astray.
This setup change would also have the aforementioned benefit of helping the Sultanate of Rome appear where it should (provided that the Turks conquer the place), as well as helping Byzantium lose that area more easily as the rebelling vassals there won't repledge (until the Rome title is taken away from the Turks, that is). "Long live Manzikert"..?

[Byakhiam]

I'm not keen on changing borders of Bulgaria southwards lightly. It's on Balkans and deals with Byzantium, so it consequently surely has been argued to death million times already.

I was toying with this map however:


Finland in purple, yellow part of the Steppes would be Scythia / Cumania and the white part would be Khazaria / Ural. Added Canaries and Rome to appropriate kingdoms.

EDIT: Kingdom of Rome in Anatolia?

[The Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Byakhiam

I was toying with this map however:
[map]

Finland in purple, yellow part of the Steppes would be Scythia / Cumania and the white part would be Khazaria / Ural. Added Canaries and Rome to appropriate kingdoms.

I'd like Khazaria, but am not sure if the name would be plausible for a Christian king there - the Empire of Khazaria was Jewish, after all.
On the other hand, I'm sure a Christian king would like to name his land after an empire, as that would probably match his ego better.

EDIT: Kingdom of Rome in Anatolia?

Yup... The Turks did it, so why not a powerful Byzantine rebel or catholic invader?
http://www.europa-universalis.com/fo...70&postcount=7
http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea1200.jpg

[Riddermark]

amazing work!
Strymon to bulgaria will be a fine decision though and historically correct

[The Phoenix]

I'm also thinking that, perhaps, the three Syrian provinces bordering the Terra Incognita might be better in the green blob instead... it would at least make Syria look more Syria-shaped, and I think it would correspond better with how geopolitical influences were during the times.

[Byakhiam]

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

I'd like Khazaria, but am not sure if the name would be plausible for a Christian king there - the Empire of Khazaria was Jewish, after all.

King of Ural might fit the lands associated with it better too. Of course better sounding name suggestions are always welcome.

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

Yup... The Turks did it, so why not a powerful Byzantine rebel or catholic invader?

The Turks didn't hold that much special affection to the city of Rome however, like (especially) Catholic christians did.

Originally Posted by Riddermark

Strymon to bulgaria will be a fine decision though and historically correct

I'm sure the next passing Byzantophile will claim the opposite.

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

I'm also thinking that, perhaps, the three Syrian provinces bordering the Terra Incognita might be better in the green blob instead... it would at least make Syria look more Syria-shaped, and I think it would correspond better with how geopolitical influences were during the times.

Could be.

[The Phoenix]

What's the deal with the leftmost Khazaria/Ural province, by the way? It looks kinda disjointed...

Also, if the white thing should be Khazaria, some land on the other side of the Volga mouth might also be warranted - perhaps the Scythian/Cuman part of Alania (4 provinces)?

[The Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Byakhiam

King of Ural might fit the lands associated with it better too. Of course better sounding name suggestions are always welcome.

Being an ignorant Khazaria fanboy, I'd prefer Khazaria. The rationale is, again, that any non-modest king would want to name his realm after an empire (particularly one that was strong enough to stop the advance of the muslims towards Europe's "eastern flank").

The Turks didn't hold that much special affection to the city of Rome however, like (especially) Catholic christians did.

The Byzantine Empire considered itself to be the Roman Empire, though...
(and given the locale, it seems plausible that anyone setting up a new kingdom there would want to give it the most prestigeous name easily available)

I'm sure the next passing Byzantophile will claim the opposite.

Hasn't EU3 shown us how they should be treated?

Could be.

Should be. :nods:

[Garbon]

Originally Posted by The Phoenix

Should be. :nods:

I agree. It makes sense to separate those provinces from Syria and add them to Mesopotamia.

[goiobre]

I believe that it's been mentioned that TURK and DERB were the only free duchy tags out there. ATRI and UGRI seem to have worked fine for me, and as far as I'm aware, aren't used in any scenario anywhere, though I don't know if there's a need or desire for two more duchies in that setup . . .

[Duuk]

In general, I prefer the first map, plus Finland and Rome->Italy

One thing I'd like to suggest (and will probably be shot for)... any chance we can have a Kingdom of Greece and a Kingdom of Anatolia and make Byz NOT recreatable?

I don't think it will provide the Empire with too much "extra prestige", since they never seem to have the cash-on-hand early, and by late will have lost enough provinces to prevent them claiming it.

Also, this will prevent Byzantine breakaways from re-pledging. If the Empire wants to regain its original size, it'll have to use those claims it got on its former vassals.

You may commence flaming me now