Exploration - A radically new approach

[Jinnai]

When people went out exploring, they didn't know what they'd find. They might have ideas, but that's about it. I mean, Columbus sailor to America expecting to find not America, but Asia.

In Eu1 and 2, this is largely lost because everyone knows where every province is. heck, your eu2 came with a fold-out map even (which is nice,don't get me wrong), but it makes exploring very easy, especially for humans who know exactly where go and already know the enitr world, which isn't suppose to be what exploration is.

instead, what would be nice to do is have exploritory missions where you pay some money and probably set out a tenative destination and a time. Then sometime lateryour explorer either returns or doesn't. If he doesn't, the game notify's you with a message like "Your explorer is probably lost forever by now..." if successful, you'll find all the provinces they explored known in your map. It might be eactly what you want, more or less or womwhere a bit off "my ship got blown ooff course radically."

[Yakman]

Sounds good. I hate micromanaging such things. But Conquistadors should still be the way they were--explorers can be as you described.

[Jayavarman]

Yes, the slight randomization of exploration would be very nice and add lots of fun and mystery to game while reducing player exploits. Also, the feature of executing the guy if he lands on Long Island instead of the Bahamas would be nice.

[Smirfy]

Originally Posted by Jayavarman

Yes, the slight randomization of exploration would be very nice and add lots of fun and mystery to game while reducing player exploits. Also, the feature of executing the guy if he lands on Long Island instead of the Bahamas would be nice.

Problem being the Portuguese largely suspected the way round Good Hope and Columbus knew north from west Nice but not practical.

[jacob-Lundgren]

would be nice to see conquistador broken up into a land-explorer leader and an anti-native/pagan country leader in the least.

Otherwise a system where you charter exploration missions would be sweet. Prices and chance of success can be altered depending on what year it is and how many other people have explored that region. That way it wont always pay for a country like portugal to try and go exploring ahistorically.

[Jinnai]

Originally Posted by Smirfy

Problem being the Portuguese largely suspected the way round Good Hope and Columbus knew north from west Nice but not practical.

Again, easy cop-out statement from someone who doesn't know how trade winds and that mapping wasn't the best.

You can suspect something, but that isn't nessarily true. Columbus suspected China was on the other side of the ocean, he was wrong. Something was in the way.

[Duke of Wellington]

But naval exploration is IMHO one of the most fun aspects, often its the only reason I colonise. Even if it is unrealistic as it is modelled. I'd rather have fun than realism.

[Jomini]

Early on I'd like to see explorations be events, you get an event (historical or random using the current setup) which allows you to finance exploration with various targets in mind. For instance early on you'd have choices like "The African coast", "Oceanic passage to India", and "A westerly passage to China". As time moves onward you get "A northwest passage", "The North American coast", the "South American coast", and "The West Indies". Further on you'd get "Virginia", "New England", "The Mexican coast", "The Mississippi Rivier", and "California". Of course every now and again your explorere might get a bit lost and come back with information other than what you desired. This would give Spain, Portugal, etc. a jump start on colonization, but would not allow them to so easily lay claim to the best territory. In particular the missions to the far east should be rare enough that some very valuable territory is still left to be had when the Dutch finally come into their own.

[Jinnai]

That's something like i was thinking, but a little less specific.

[Smirfy]

Originally Posted by jacob-Lundgren

would be nice to see conquistador broken up into a land-explorer leader and an anti-native/pagan country leader in the least.

Otherwise a system where you charter exploration missions would be sweet. Prices and chance of success can be altered depending on what year it is and how many other people have explored that region. That way it wont always pay for a country like portugal to try and go exploring ahistorically.

I like the idea for nations at cost to charter explorers and I like the random discovery which is sort of already modelled but Long Island is a bit much.

Explorers should only have a certain amount of provinces they can uncover whatever system is favoured ie Colombus 10 Magellan 40 Cortez 1 (demonstrative only)

[Smirfy]

Originally Posted by Jinnai

You can suspect something, but that isn't nessarily true. Columbus suspected China was on the other side of the ocean, he was wrong. Something was in the way.

Yes but he did not sail north to find it Likewise the Portuguese sailed South

[Yakman]

Originally Posted by Smirfy

Problem being the Portuguese largely suspected the way round Good Hope and Columbus knew north from west Nice but not practical.

Hudson didn't listen to his employers.

[Jomini]

Remember early exploration was virtually never about finding specific land, it was about finding trade routes. Early on nations paid for people like Hudson to find a northwest passage, his mapping of New York was just the incidental benifit.

And I think that is not a bad model to follow. To give the player some choice you might let them send Hudson after the Northwest passage, around Cape Horn, or choose not to pay him and explore nothing. The ability to send your explorers exactly where you wish to get the provinces you want simply is not truthful to history. Later on you might get explorers who were specificly tasked with charting specific waters, and later still every navy should be able to do so, but not in the early stages.

[Jinnai]

Originally Posted by Smirfy

Yes but he did not sail north to find it Likewise the Portuguese sailed South

Which is basically what i meant. like "Discover lands to the south" This couls mean Africa, but a very small chance of getting difted enough off course for portugal. For Africa since they can easily follow the coast "south" for a bit this would be bery unlikely, but not impossible.

[Smirfy]

Originally Posted by Yakman

Hudson didn't listen to his employers.

Unfortunatly with the Portugese having fun in the sun Henry's options were somewhat limited. Worth a punt in 17C, but no player will ever try it in the 21st
Thats why limitations on explorers arnt that evil

[Estonianzulu]

Originally Posted by Duke of Wellington

But naval exploration is IMHO one of the most fun aspects, often its the only reason I colonise. Even if it is unrealistic as it is modelled. I'd rather have fun than realism.

I can sort of agree with you. Sometimes exploration with Navies would be fun. But the micromanaging of explorers gets a bit tiresome, especially if you get hit with revolts or a war during exploration. It can be tough to send out explorers constantly, trying to avoid having them loose all their ships to attrition, whilst fighting a war, etc.

I don't see why any admiral couldn't be sent into the unknown. You should be able to hire explorers, in the system suggested at the start of this thread, but also be able to direct leaders into certain areas. Depending on their traits (if a more HoI style leadership system was used with detailed military leader traits ala CK) they would have varied success in both mapping the region, and in dealing with those events that occur in the wilderness (moral losses leading to desertion, atrition, disease, dealing with natives, finding a way home, etc.) varying the success of whatever leader you sent.

This means that nations with extra cash but not the huge manpower can send explorers to map land via the system suggested in the title, or those nations with less money but lots of men (see Russia) can just trudge blindly across the wilderness. This also means those players who don't want to micromanage exploration can hire someone else to do it for them.

However you would need a system that allows you to 'aim' your explorer, so an English player wouldn't get an explorer charting the unknown plains of Inner Mongolia in 1650, not really all that usefull. I agree with J-L's idea that you should get land explorers and anti-native troops differently.

Estonian 'back from the dead' zulu.

[Smirfy]

Originally Posted by Jinnai

Which is basically what i meant. like "Discover lands to the south" This couls mean Africa, but a very small chance of getting difted enough off course for portugal. For Africa since they can easily follow the coast "south" for a bit this would be bery unlikely, but not impossible.

Dont get me wrong I like your idea just Long Island as suggested by the other poster was a bit much. Having what in the general area a explorer discovers randomized and out of control of the player is a good idea. Combine that with limiting the number of times Colombus can do that to a sensible level and we are in complete agreement.

[Jinnai]

Originally Posted by Smirfy

Dont get me wrong I like your idea just Long Island as suggested by the other poster was a bit much. Having what in the general area a explorer discovers randomized and out of control of the player is a good idea. Combine that with limiting the number of times Colombus can do that to a sensible level and we are in complete agreement.

I just want some chance for offcourse dicovery, espeically as you move further awa from the captial and have longer voyuages.

[Yakman]

Originally Posted by Smirfy

Unfortunatly with the Portugese having fun in the sun Henry's options were somewhat limited. Worth a punt in 17C, but no player will ever try it in the 21st
Thats why limitations on explorers arnt that evil

Henry's employers knew the options. He went in the exact opposite direction because he didn't give a rat's tail about his orders.

[Smirfy]

Originally Posted by Jinnai

I just want some chance for offcourse dicovery, espeically as you move further awa from the captial and have longer voyuages.

I have a history of exploration in front of me and at the back lists all the explorers with a map of their discoveries. I'm finding it very hard too find one that went off course.