Another Case of A** Handing

CulturalCarnage · 03-02-2006, 18:25

Well, well, well...

So here I am, playing GER '36, VH/F, natch. I go for the factory approach, humming right along. I don't tech rush at all, not one calendar day - I'm a little behind in tech 'cuz of this, but that's OK, it's not a gamebreaker, it's a challenge. No big Diplo moves either - really sedate. Build '36 Inf in '38, build 12 Cav Divs that mate with ACs for the Polish campaign, schedule's not too bad, getting in Light Armor in time, things are OK - not stupendous, but about what I expected. About the only real criticism is really light on the navy, but hey, it's GER & I sneak in at least one NB before Danzig for Kattegat coverage.

About 9 Lt Armd at kickoff, about 10 CAS. Fair on the TAC - no Slovakia, split Czecho with HUN. Things look OK.

Start the campaign in POL, and again, things are OK, the usual pattern. I was wicked light in Koenigsberg (didn't build TPs yet) and lost there, but no big huhu - the Kav Korps (6 Divs up here in the north) is ridin' to the rescue.

Then I get a combat message - "Our Armies are under attack in Saarbruecken!"

Well, I try a relieving attack - the defender in Saarbruecken is only 5 Inf-Arty Divs, and, as a matter of fact, my Rhine forces in general are only 5 Inf-Arty Divs in each of the three defending provinces.

The Saar defender has more ORG to start with, but then starts to plummet - France is coming with 13 Divs and remember, Saarbruecken has no river crossing (I usually put a bit more in). The relieving attack doesn't help much, 'cuz those guys are tiring real fast vs. the French level 10 forts.

Finally, finally, I wake up & click on the province of Saarbruecken - WTF!!! It's a level One fort!

I've played '36 before - weren't they level Fives before 1.3b? Obviously, I didn't build any forts.

Guess you have to in 1.3b. Oh, well, back to the drawing board - ten hours down the tubes.

Kolyana · 03-02-2006, 18:30

Now you see, I've never played Germany in 1.3b and I never knew that they were anything other than 1 level forts .. knowing that they used to be five!!!! Man. So, what's the reason for lowering them to one?

I'm also a little worried, because I've fortified my western flank in much the same manner as yourself and war is less than a year away ... I need to get a move on!!!

(BTW ... how do you rush tech? I didn't even know this was possible).

HansBolter · 03-02-2006, 18:40

I think they have been level one for some time now.

I have experimented with the threshold level for a French attack.

6 INF will invite an attack.

9-12 will deter an attack. (9 in the provinces that can only be hit from one other province and 12 for the one that can be hit from 2 provinces)

I haven't experimented with increments less than 3 as that is my standard corps structure.

After the Polish campaign ends it is importaant to increase those garrisons to 12-15 and then even to 15-18 as the French will continue to pour almost their entire army into the Maginot and can eventually get a pretty large attack on the province that can be hit from two of theirs.

CulturalCarnage · 03-02-2006, 18:41

You can start to research any tech you're qualified to research any time you want. If you start waaay early ('38 stuff in '36, for example) there's a severe penalty. The penalty lightens up as you get closer & closer to the actual calendar year for the given tech.

It's just a way I play with US and GER - it's a handicap. In 'regular' play, it's not considered 'gamey' to research, oh say, six months ahead. Earlier than that is 'tech rushing' & most players would feel it's somewhat gamey to be researching a year or more ahead of the calendar date.

@HansBolter

Yes, yes, and yes. Know exactly what you're saying. Obviously, you can see that I felt I could get by with a modest force in the beginning, that even if Jacques brought it on, my level Fives would be just enough - but they ain't now.

To generalize tremendously, here's a theory of mine - garrison & guard as if the AI were a human. The AI does see all - if you address weak spots, places that need to be guarded to begin with, the AI does see that & won't attack someplace where you've done your homework. Leave an opening, though, and the AI will attack. A lot of posts here are 'how come..."; well it's because you didn't guard the beach/province/garrison against partisans, etc., etc., that's why!

People don't give the AI enough credit. I've been playing conflict simulation games for a while, and this is one of the best I've run into. It is just software in the end, and you can outhink it, no problem, but it will slap you around if you don't take elementary precautions.

Kolyana · 03-02-2006, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by CulturalCarnage

You can start to research any tech you're qualified to research any time you want. If you start waaay early ('38 stuff in '36, for example) there's a severe penalty. The penalty lightens up as you get closer & closer to the actual calendar year for the given tech.

It's just a way I play with US and GER - it's a handicap. In 'regular' play, it's not considered 'gamey' to research, oh say, six months ahead. Earlier than that is 'tech rushing' & most players would feel it's somewhat gamey to be researching a year or more ahead of the calendar date.

I don't want to derail your ass whupping (

) but I always took the historical year to be the year it *actually* saw service, so I research it a touch before in most instances. Am I suffering a penalty because I start researching Inf '38 in 36? Should I be *starting* the research on the historicalk year rather than aiming to complete it by then?

CulturalCarnage · 03-02-2006, 18:58

If you start a '38 tech on 30 Dec '37, you will suffer a microscopic penalty. If you start a '38 tech on 1 Jan '37, you will suffer a significantly larger penalty. Let me say it now before John Heidle gets here (

) - check out the Wiki, it'll give you the arithmetic for the penalty per unit of time.

Again, it's just my personal house rule - no tech before its calendar date.

john heidle · 04-02-2006, 16:51

My reputation is really starting to precede me !!!!!!!!

The research guide at Wiki written by Mediator gives you the basic math:

http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Research

Note that Executor has updated his Research Assistant tool for 1.3 and a link to that has been included in that Wiki section.

As to part of the original question about defending Germany's provinces next to the Maginot Line:

the best strategy would be to simply build and place more inf div in the three adjoining provinces. I use about 15 12 and 18 (north to south) to deter any French attacks. You could instead build up to level 3 forts which can be done after the Munich crisis, but more div will serve you better in the long run than more forts will (each fort level is about the same as one more inf div).

The bonus for having more inf div opposite the Maginot Line is that the AI will stockpile a lot of div there. That means less div elsewhere when you sweep into Belgium and a quicker Vichy event trigger.

GhostWriter · 04-02-2006, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by john heidle

..the best strategy would be to simply build and place more inf div in the three adjoining provinces. I use about 15 12 and 18 (north to south) to deter any French attacks..

The bonus for having more inf div opposite the Maginot Line is that the AI will stockpile a lot of div there. That means less div elsewhere when you sweep into Belgium and a quicker Vichy event trigger.

the strategy i liked the best was to leave Freiburg empty (also Friedrichshafen and Nuremberg) and channel a French attack along those empty provinces! ! ! as soon as the French arrive in Nuremberg, move the troops in Lech (3 ±) plus some from Munich into Friedrichshafen and isolate the French troops. waste them.

however, your option gives me an idea. start with your plan, then just before you invade Poland, move the divisions in Freiburg to Stuttgart, Frankfurt-am-Main (don't leave any behind), Nuremberg, and (then) split them between Dresden, Regensberg, Frankfurt-am-Main (!), Munich, and either/both of Ústí and Strakonice (obviously, if you have them.) needless to say, i have not tried this strategy.

this does, however, raise the 'stakes' in your 'Western Gambit'...

Permanganate · 04-02-2006, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by CulturalCarnage

I've played '36 before - weren't they level Fives before 1.3b? Obviously, I didn't build any forts.

They've always been L1 forts in '36. They're L3 in the other scenarios. The AI is scripted to build them up to L3 during 1938/39.

CulturalCarnage · 04-02-2006, 22:24

Thank you, I'll remember that in the furure.

AOK. 11 · 04-02-2006, 22:42

I always build a serial of garrisons and stack them up in the Ruhr. The AI only looks for numbers of divisions in my experience. I use an Armeekorps of 3-4 divisions backed by 3-4 garrisons. You will need the all those garrisons and more later. Hell, if your desperate, run a serial of Militia and dispand them when they have outlived their usefullness.

HansBolter is right, there is something magick about 6 or less divisions. Usually at 7 or above, they will leave you be.

P3D · 05-02-2006, 00:17

In all my VH GER games, France attacked mid-September. 12 Divs in Freiburg and 15 in Saarbrucken is not enough deterrent.

Kolyana · 05-02-2006, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostWriter

the strategy i liked the best was to leave Freiburg empty (also Friedrichshafen and Nuremberg) and channel a French attack along those empty provinces! ! ! as soon as the French arrive in Nuremberg, move the troops in Lech (3 ±) plus some from Munich into Friedrichshafen and isolate the French troops. waste them.

however, your option gives me an idea. start with your plan, then just before you invade Poland, move the divisions in Freiburg to Stuttgart, Frankfurt-am-Main (don't leave any behind), Nuremberg, and (then) split them between Dresden, Regensberg, Frankfurt-am-Main (!), Munich, and either/both of Ústí and Strakonice (obviously, if you have them.) needless to say, i have not tried this strategy.

this does, however, raise the 'stakes' in your 'Western Gambit'...

heh, I'm going to try this one later today ... I'm not far off being done with Poland and I'll be swinging my attentions over in that direction!

EvilSanta · 05-02-2006, 19:31

Arent they always been lvl 1?I dont have any memorials of lvl 5 forts there.

DanDaMan · 05-02-2006, 19:33

Restarting because of one defeat completely ruins the game. Be happy that you have an interesting game on your hands for once. I think that any game where I feel that I was honestly beaten by the AI would be the best game ever.

CulturalCarnage · 05-02-2006, 19:34

Already addressed above. My faulty memory; as you get older, the first thing that goes is your memory and the second is...uhh, I forget.

Anyhow, in '38 & '39 scenarios they're level 3 forts.

@DanDaMan

I agree, although I'm a schnook and have been known to re-load. I give the AI a cookie and try to get back to de Plan.

"De Plan! De Plan!"

As Daffy was wont to say, "Yes, I'm a louse - but I'm a live louse."

johan183 · 05-02-2006, 21:23

Well, one time i had 9 divisions positioned on the Western front and France attacked me, and kicked my butt out of there. But I just finished mopping out Poland, and all my forces
were moving westwards allready. What happened then was an interesting thing, I managed to push through the Maginot line by sheer numbers, and the took the France without DOWing Belgium and Holland...
Vichy fired, but then I DOWed the Belgians and Dutch anyways, nothing worse than a backstab when you are doing Barbarossa.

03-02-2006, 18:25	#1
CulturalCarnage A poor player... Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: "I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace." Posts: 1,098	Another Case of A Handing** Well, well, well... So here I am, playing GER '36, VH/F, natch. I go for the factory approach, humming right along. I don't tech rush at all, not one calendar day - I'm a little behind in tech 'cuz of this, but that's OK, it's not a gamebreaker, it's a challenge. No big Diplo moves either - really sedate. Build '36 Inf in '38, build 12 Cav Divs that mate with ACs for the Polish campaign, schedule's not too bad, getting in Light Armor in time, things are OK - not stupendous, but about what I expected. About the only real criticism is really light on the navy, but hey, it's GER & I sneak in at least one NB before Danzig for Kattegat coverage. About 9 Lt Armd at kickoff, about 10 CAS. Fair on the TAC - no Slovakia, split Czecho with HUN. Things look OK. Start the campaign in POL, and again, things are OK, the usual pattern. I was wicked light in Koenigsberg (didn't build TPs yet) and lost there, but no big huhu - the Kav Korps (6 Divs up here in the north) is ridin' to the rescue. Then I get a combat message - "Our Armies are under attack in Saarbruecken!" Well, I try a relieving attack - the defender in Saarbruecken is only 5 Inf-Arty Divs, and, as a matter of fact, my Rhine forces in general are only 5 Inf-Arty Divs in each of the three defending provinces. The Saar defender has more ORG to start with, but then starts to plummet - France is coming with 13 Divs and remember, Saarbruecken has no river crossing (I usually put a bit more in). The relieving attack doesn't help much, 'cuz those guys are tiring real fast vs. the French level 10 forts. Finally, finally, I wake up & click on the province of Saarbruecken - WTF!!! It's a level One fort! I've played '36 before - weren't they level Fives before 1.3b? Obviously, I didn't build any forts. Guess you have to in 1.3b. Oh, well, back to the drawing board - ten hours down the tubes.

03-02-2006, 18:41	#4
CulturalCarnage A poor player... Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: "I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace." Posts: 1,098	You can start to research any tech you're qualified to research any time you want. If you start waaay early ('38 stuff in '36, for example) there's a severe penalty. The penalty lightens up as you get closer & closer to the actual calendar year for the given tech. It's just a way I play with US and GER - it's a handicap. In 'regular' play, it's not considered 'gamey' to research, oh say, six months ahead. Earlier than that is 'tech rushing' & most players would feel it's somewhat gamey to be researching a year or more ahead of the calendar date. @HansBolter Yes, yes, and yes. Know exactly what you're saying. Obviously, you can see that I felt I could get by with a modest force in the beginning, that even if Jacques brought it on, my level Fives would be just enough - but they ain't now. To generalize tremendously, here's a theory of mine - garrison & guard as if the AI were a human. The AI does see all - if you address weak spots, places that need to be guarded to begin with, the AI does see that & won't attack someplace where you've done your homework. Leave an opening, though, and the AI will attack. A lot of posts here are 'how come..."; well it's because you didn't guard the beach/province/garrison against partisans, etc., etc., that's why! People don't give the AI enough credit. I've been playing conflict simulation games for a while, and this is one of the best I've run into. It is just software in the end, and you can outhink it, no problem, but it will slap you around if you don't take elementary precautions. Last edited by CulturalCarnage; 03-02-2006 at 18:53.

05-02-2006, 00:17	#12
P3D Major Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 611	In all my VH GER games, France attacked mid-September. 12 Divs in Freiburg and 15 in Saarbrucken is not enough deterrent. __________________ P3D HoI2 Leader Experience Mysteries Unravelled

05-02-2006, 19:31	#14
EvilSanta Alles klar Herr Kommissar? Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: St. Mary Mead Posts: 3,500	Arent they always been lvl 1?I dont have any memorials of lvl 5 forts there. __________________ Was würde Brian Boitano tun?

05-02-2006, 21:23	#17
johan183 Corporal Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe Posts: 49	Well, one time i had 9 divisions positioned on the Western front and France attacked me, and kicked my butt out of there. But I just finished mopping out Poland, and all my forces were moving westwards allready. What happened then was an interesting thing, I managed to push through the Maginot line by sheer numbers, and the took the France without DOWing Belgium and Holland... Vichy fired, but then I DOWed the Belgians and Dutch anyways, nothing worse than a backstab when you are doing Barbarossa. __________________ SMEP for HOI2 1.3b Scytth & Kristoff icons for HOI2 and DoomsDay

03-02-2006, 18:30	#2
Kolyana Second Lieutenant Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 123	Now you see, I've never played Germany in 1.3b and I never knew that they were anything other than 1 level forts .. knowing that they used to be five!!!! Man. So, what's the reason for lowering them to one? I'm also a little worried, because I've fortified my western flank in much the same manner as yourself and war is less than a year away ... I need to get a move on!!! (BTW ... how do you rush tech? I didn't even know this was possible).

03-02-2006, 18:40	#3
HansBolter Captain Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 387	I think they have been level one for some time now. I have experimented with the threshold level for a French attack. 6 INF will invite an attack. 9-12 will deter an attack. (9 in the provinces that can only be hit from one other province and 12 for the one that can be hit from 2 provinces) I haven't experimented with increments less than 3 as that is my standard corps structure. After the Polish campaign ends it is importaant to increase those garrisons to 12-15 and then even to 15-18 as the French will continue to pour almost their entire army into the Maginot and can eventually get a pretty large attack on the province that can be hit from two of theirs.

03-02-2006, 18:58	#6
CulturalCarnage A poor player... Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: "I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace." Posts: 1,098	If you start a '38 tech on 30 Dec '37, you will suffer a microscopic penalty. If you start a '38 tech on 1 Jan '37, you will suffer a significantly larger penalty. Let me say it now before John Heidle gets here ( ) - check out the Wiki, it'll give you the arithmetic for the penalty per unit of time. Again, it's just my personal house rule - no tech before its calendar date.

04-02-2006, 16:51	#7
john heidle [retired] FM Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 10,274	My reputation is really starting to precede me !!!!!!!! The research guide at Wiki written by Mediator gives you the basic math: http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Research Note that Executor has updated his Research Assistant tool for 1.3 and a link to that has been included in that Wiki section. As to part of the original question about defending Germany's provinces next to the Maginot Line: the best strategy would be to simply build and place more inf div in the three adjoining provinces. I use about 15 12 and 18 (north to south) to deter any French attacks. You could instead build up to level 3 forts which can be done after the Munich crisis, but more div will serve you better in the long run than more forts will (each fort level is about the same as one more inf div). The bonus for having more inf div opposite the Maginot Line is that the AI will stockpile a lot of div there. That means less div elsewhere when you sweep into Belgium and a quicker Vichy event trigger.

04-02-2006, 22:24	#10
CulturalCarnage A poor player... Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: "I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace." Posts: 1,098	Thank you, I'll remember that in the furure.

04-02-2006, 22:42	#11
AOK. 11 Werewolf Death Dealer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Florence, Alabama Posts: 961	I always build a serial of garrisons and stack them up in the Ruhr. The AI only looks for numbers of divisions in my experience. I use an Armeekorps of 3-4 divisions backed by 3-4 garrisons. You will need the all those garrisons and more later. Hell, if your desperate, run a serial of Militia and dispand them when they have outlived their usefullness. HansBolter is right, there is something magick about 6 or less divisions. Usually at 7 or above, they will leave you be.

05-02-2006, 19:33	#15
DanDaMan Colonel Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 940	Restarting because of one defeat completely ruins the game. Be happy that you have an interesting game on your hands for once. I think that any game where I feel that I was honestly beaten by the AI would be the best game ever.

05-02-2006, 19:34	#16
CulturalCarnage A poor player... Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: "I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace." Posts: 1,098	Already addressed above. My faulty memory; as you get older, the first thing that goes is your memory and the second is...uhh, I forget. Anyhow, in '38 & '39 scenarios they're level 3 forts. @DanDaMan I agree, although I'm a schnook and have been known to re-load. I give the AI a cookie and try to get back to de Plan. "De Plan! De Plan!" As Daffy was wont to say, "Yes, I'm a louse - but I'm a live louse."