Naval supremecy

[sinner3404]

In most games as Germany I really make an effort to utterly destroy the allied navies so I'm able to make an easy Sealion landing. Usually I end up getting by with a barely adeqate army while building my navy to its glory. I usually end up having around four fleets consisting of 3 carriers, 6 light cruisers and 6 destroyer flotillas along with hordes of submarine fleets supporting them. (all IV)

This last game, however, I decided to skimp on my incredibly huge submarine fleet and cut my surface fleet in half and get by with that. I settled on making a fleet of 6 carriers, 2 battleships, 8 light cruisers and 8 destroyer flotillas. Because of this huge fleet I didn't really have the resources to start in on an army and air force till 1940 as I was really buffing my industry up as much as I could in that time too.I didn't annex or go to war with the Czechs and I didn't press my position on Danzig and appeased the allies as much as I could while building up my regular military.

With my airforce (roughly 25 interceptor squadrons and 25 tac bombers) up and running along with a 200 division army I began my conquest of the balkan nations... Quite easily running over Hungry, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania (Italy hadn't decided to pick that up quite yet...) and Yugoslavia. I had moved my super battle fleet into the Med as well as my transport fleet (the original ships Germany starts out with along with 12 transports) to help secure Greece. I released them all over time and began moving my offensive force up north to seal off the southern Polish-Romanian border and to prepare for a pre-emptive offensive strike into Poland... Just as my divisions got through Bulgaria France declared on me trapping my super fleet in the med. Oddly Britain hadn't invited Poland into their military alliance so I pulled the armies marching towards Poland away and sent them all to the Maginot line.

I broke through quite easily via brute force into France but on my march to Paris something horrible had happened... I set my superfleet to patrol the western med off the coast of spain (I had plowed the the nationalists and republicans during their civil war and made nationalist spain a puppet) to try and atleast whittle down the royal navy any small bit I could. About two months into the war the French and British sent their combined fleets of ALL their battleships, carriers and screens against my one surface fleet... It was completely annihilated Though I did manage to take around 20 CVs and BBs with me.

After that block of text... My question is... In your bids to attain naval supremecy as Germany... Has GB and France ever send a combined fleet against any one of your surface fleets?

My jaw dropped when I saw my ENTIRE navy destroyed. Guess I'll have to start pumpin out those subs now...

[Shingunto_nj]

No, I haven't seen a combined fleet., but what are you doing???

If your fleet is on a bad streak pull em out and regroup... Let em get back some org and smash em... Try playing as Jap to learn how manage fleets...

[sinner3404]

Originally Posted by Shingunto_nj

No, I haven't seen a combined fleet., but what are you doing???

If your fleet is on a bad streak pull em out and regroup... Let em get back some org and smash em... Try playing as Jap to learn how manage fleets...

Its gone. It was at full strength and org patrolling the western med and got crushed by a combined French and British fleet chock full of carriers and battleships.

[Shingunto_nj]

right... the german navy is weak to start with, so it's tough to take out the brits without being borderline gamey w/ subs. Read the naval primer to get some specifics, but in order for germany to have a shot at nailing the brit fleet with a surface fleet you're gonna need i'd guess at least 4 cv ( high end ) with several lc and dd + a couple subs. with that, run by a good admiral and fighting in good weather you might stand a chance...

[jungkhans]

I have seen combined attacks since 1.00! France and england at the same time, usually after the first several encounters.

but a SUPER-FLEET? This sounds new.

[Glorfindel]

Sea lion for me usually begins in 1941. I have by then 4 to 6 carriers and a couple of BB IVs along with CL IVs and DD IVs to anchor the invasion beaches. It's kind of hard to see you begining strategy as the best way to initiate the war. Having allowed France to exist post 1940 is kind of rare for most Germany players.

However, when I do Sea Lion, the British and sometimes (if they have dow'd me) the US through literally everything they have at my fleet. To try and combat this I throw my sub fleet in the sea province south of the invasion (usualy approach of enemy fleets is from south) and have every Naval Bomber group and a few Tactical Bomber groups as well as adequate fighter coverage in those sea zones. Together they usually prevail. I must note that I haven't installed 1.3b yet because of a few glitches with them.

It is important to monitor the combats and pull ships that have heavy damage/and or org loss out.

My goal is to be able to launch an Amohib invasion wherever and whenever I want. This usually draws most of your enemies naval attention. The AI still doesn't seem smart enough to hold back and build up forces yet.After a while you will have naval supremacy because of this.

I have seen 3 & 4 CV US fleets though, which, because of their superior Naval Techs, can hurt.

[CulturalCarnage]

I like to go with an ahistorical naval GER myself, but there's no need to go nutty & overdo it.

Germany was not a naval power. It's best shot was in the 1914 war. In game terms, if I play '36 GC as GER, I usually go for three CVs, level III. I can usually have these about 1940ish. I build accomanying screens (GER has good CLs & CAs to start off) and maybe three BBs and three BCs.

The first year or so is nothing put patrolling the Kattegat with an air umbrella overhead (I don't invade Denmark or Scandinavia - Hitler was a strategic & military idiot, but's that's another discussion - I keep focused on what's important).

Now, the real point - use this mini-Navy to keep the RN occupied/off your back while you're crossing and landing.

The best bases for your subs are in the British Isles. If you want historical, neglect Sealion & go for the 'starve 'em out' strategy - your doctrine tree is best for this. GER's doctrine tree in the Naval realm is less than desirable, shall we say, for a barroom brawl with the RN & USN.

Have a great war

[kabex]

You don't need an uber-navy to sink the RN... I completely obliterated it with my italian naval bomber fleet(12 units i think) in a year or two... the RN went *poof*. I didn't even have a single carrier.

[ermine]

Originally Posted by CulturalCarnage

I like to go with an ahistorical naval GER myself, but there's no need to go nutty & overdo it.

Germany was not a naval power. It's best shot was in the 1914 war. In game terms, if I play '36 GC as GER, I usually go for three CVs, level III. I can usually have these about 1940ish. I build accomanying screens (GER has good CLs & CAs to start off) and maybe three BBs and three BCs.

The first year or so is nothing put patrolling the Kattegat with an air umbrella overhead (I don't invade Denmark or Scandinavia - Hitler was a strategic & military idiot, but's that's another discussion - I keep focused on what's important).

Now, the real point - use this mini-Navy to keep the RN occupied/off your back while you're crossing and landing.

The best bases for your subs are in the British Isles. If you want historical, neglect Sealion & go for the 'starve 'em out' strategy - your doctrine tree is best for this. GER's doctrine tree in the Naval realm is less than desirable, shall we say, for a barroom brawl with the RN & USN.

Have a great war

Hi there

you mentioned two very interesting points ....

denmark and Norway....I leave Norway alone too (usually) but the first and last time I left Denmark the ugly allied forces invaded me (during my barbarossa) from the balticum (too close to berlin that was )...Did you never experience this or the other way around; how do you prevent that sort of stroke?

'Starv'em out' - That is my favoured scenario too (I don t build carriers just some BB's, some BC's, 10-14 CL, about 6-10 CA's, 30 DD's and trying to keep 3x15 subs afloat) sending my Fleet for Cap Ship Raiding and Anti convoy duties....but even during some glorious days when I sink up to 400 convoys (obviously over 1-2 month) I don t see any effect ..... ...the uk gets more and more divisions , more and more planes , replaces lost ships and their forces abroad are fully provided with food and Cider Beer etc etc ...... ...

Did you note any concrete effect ?....(All the things I mentioned above I noted looking at the statistics and when in combat )....

thks in advance

[CulturalCarnage]

how do you prevent that sort of stroke?

By the Kattegat patrol, with a strong air cover. I don't build NBs, your existing air builds will handle it, just use a bit more Tac, maybe an ally's handy-dandy level I crapola. On a nearby thread, I touched upon my GER strategy in general: Poland, France, SU. That's it, you've won, really. Now you can deal with the British Empire at leisure. Oh, the US? You wanna piece o' this? You lookin' at me? Bring it on, dude. I may not have Oppenheimer, but I'm no slouch in that department (1.3 apparently makes you build six reactors, though - OUCH).

Don't go North or South, just East-West-East. Guarantee YUG & GRK so that your loyal allies don't piss in the soup down Balkania way. Don't lose focus - stupid moron writes a book telling the world how he's gonna do it & then throws it away - gee, King Peter (Paul?) in Belgrade pissed me off - I'll show him! F*ckin' moron - he had 300,000 troops in Norway spankin' their hoses on VE Day - gee, think those coulda been useful somewhere?

If I'd been a German general, I woulda shot 'im in April 1940, when he started mumbling things about Norway.

Denmark's not a bad idea, there's a couple of plusses to it - I just don't bother, that's all. There's no point to Norway, though, or points south.

[Drog]

I faced a similar combined Anglo/French fleet as Japan off Thailand but I sank it all with minor losses other than 3 CVs.

The game was discouraging after that at sea honestly.

[CulturalCarnage]

Anglo/French fleet as Japan off Thailand but I sank it all with minor losses other than 3 CVs.

Which is unsurprising. Take a good look at the Naval doctrine trees - UKs is OK, better than GER's, but not quite in the same league as JPN or US. Biggest advantage for RN is the number of CVs - their doctrine is close enough so that a 6+ CV fleet of the RN is not just a bunch of targets - you could be the target if you challenge a 6 CV RN fleet with 3 level V CVs. Quanitity can be telling in the right circumstances.

[Drog]

I think the issue in my fight was the battle was piecemeal with both sides sending renforcements in (I also sent some out to flee/repair). In total 11 anglo/french CVs went to the bottom to only 3 Japanese CVs. I also sank like 20 BB and inumerable CA, CL, DD, and SS totalling something like 150 total vessels. The fight lasted something like 11 weeks of game time consecutively.

This was much better than the US solo performance though. I didn't even select suprise attacks and nearly the whole US fleet was put on the bottom (less than 30 vessels left) within the first 6 weeks of the war. I am looking over the US naval AI to see how I smashed it so badly since I was outnumbered going into the war by a small margin.

The key to naval supremacy is to keep the enemy's naval bases smashed so he can't repair. Then when you damage his fleets pursue, pursue, pursue even if it means you lose some vessels.

[CulturalCarnage]

I think the issue in my fight was the battle was piecemeal with both sides sending renforcements in (I also sent some out to flee/repair). In total 11 anglo/french CVs went to the bottom to only 3 Japanese CVs. I also sank like 20 BB and inumerable CA, CL, DD, and SS totalling something like 150 total vessels. The fight lasted something like 11 weeks of game time consecutively.

I never see this. Oft reported on the forums, but doesn't happen in my games.

GER, US - always VH/F

UK, JPN - H/F

ITA - N/F

Never seen it - never, not once. My battles are a fraction of that elapsed time.

Makes ya wonder sometimes, if we're all really playing the same game...

[TheLand]

German naval strategy isn't much of a challenge, tbh! One big stack with a decent number of BBs or CVs, one small sea, one mistake by the AI and you can slaughter the British.

I think Britain is the most interesting sea power to play. You have a large but outdated navy, limited production and have to take Germany AND Italy AND Japan. Which is more of a challenge than it is Germany on land taking Poland and France and the Soviet Union, because there is so much more potential for things to go wrong.

So it becomes an interesting question about how many CLs you can build to build to screen your obsolescent battleships, whether you can spare two more King George IVs for the Far East rather than keeping a lid on whatever the Germans are building next, how many ships you can husband to get a fleet that has a chance of holding off the Japanese battlefleet, whether you can spare Caledon- and Kent- class cruisers to escort your transport fleets or whether they're needed to screen capaital ships...