Title Redux

Mad King James · 27-01-2006, 23:31

I've decided that I think the game has way too many kingdom and duchy titles, and a lot of "kingdoms" are rather too weak to be so.

Also, a lot of Moslem titles have been translated right into Christian equivalents.

So I've started work on rectifying this.

Already I have done the following:

Demote Aragon to a Duchy, eliminating Spanish Marche. (SPMA is now called Aragon, uses Aragon CoA, replace ARAG with SPMA) Aragon duchy now covers Jaca, Salamanca, Catalyud, Albarracin. Rest of Spanish Marche and Zaragoza duchies to Catalonia duchy. Zaragoza now a moslem title, so I gave it the CoA of the Emirate.

Demote Sancho to Duke of Castille, Kingdom of Castille now covers entire peninsula and is called Kingdom of Spain. Duchy of Castille extended to cover Burgos, Soria and Valladolid.

Leon demoted to Duchy, eliminating Salamanca. (LEON to SALA) Duchy of Leon covers Leon, Salamanca and Zamora.

Braganza renamed Portugal, a duchy title belonging at the start to Leon, but the count of Porto has a claim on it to start. Portugal duchy extended to cover Coimbra. Tejo title encompasses Viseu as well.

Demote Kingdom of Navarra to Duke of Navarra (NAVA to DNAV).

For my own game balance and historical concerns, I made Galicia and Portugal a count under Leon, who starts out as Duke of Galicia and Portugal as well. I also made Sancho of Castille a Brilliant Strategist instead of a tough soldier, as well as giving him the Selfish, Valorous, Trusting, Temperate and Chaste traits. (he never married, died for trusting his sister's peace envoy, lead his troops personally on the front lines, and wanted every title for himself and refused to accept his father's agreement).

I then demoted Cordoba and Almeida to sheiks, renamed Cordoba to Andalusia to encompass both, and almeida to Denia and swapped out Mallorca's title for Denia.

Finally I replaced most of Badajos with Extremadura, using Viseu's tag, and most of Toledo with La Mancha, using Coimbra's.

Future plans include vastly reducing France's ducal titles.

I Killed Kenny · 28-01-2006, 20:07

I normally like your work in EUII but those iberian changes, sure suck... c'mon what do your changes have to do with history?

Mad King James · 28-01-2006, 20:44

It has to do mainly with the fact that the game is made for the French version of a king, duke and count in terms of the power they wielded. In Iberia a duke is a French count in terms of power, a king a duke, and only the united kingdom of Spain, which didn't really exist until 1477 at the earliest, is comparable to France.

I plan on demoting a lot more titles, and expanding Rus a bit. I think 3-5 is a good number of provinces per duke, and ~50 for a king.

I Killed Kenny · 28-01-2006, 21:18

dude you can claim balance, but please don't claim historiality...

and I hiope Portugal is a formable kingdom, or will it not be?

Willelmus · 01-02-2006, 19:40

The titles, however, have absolutely nothing to do with actual power within the game, as they did not have anything really to do with power historically. The ranks have an associated level of dignity or prestige that would be severely diminished with these changes. After all, a king was a king, even if he didn't rule over a large realm. Although France was certainly one of the premier kingdoms in the medieval period, these changes would leave it as practically the only one. After all, neither England nor Scotland was historically as powerful or prestigious as France; should they, too, be demoted to the level of duchies? What about Hungary, Poland, and Bohemia? As well, the Capetian kings of France were nowhere near as powerful as the later Valois and Bourbon kings; should they also be relegated to the status of dukes, or even counts? Hey, why even bother with the king tier of titles at all? Practically none of the rulers in the medieval period actually had much real power anyway...

More realistically, one could look at the matter of royal titles and power from the opposite direction. Specifically, that the kings of Castile, Aragon, Navarre, and Leon were all indeed powerful enought to be called kings, as was the king of France, but the extra size and power of France didn't make it have such significantly greater amount of prestige than the Iberian kingdoms. Much of the prestige of a title lay in the level of the title, not how much power it conveyed on the one who held the title.

As with I Killed Kenny, I rather like most of your EUII work, but I would have to say that this idea just doesn't work very well for a historically-based game.

hoodini · 02-02-2006, 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willelmus

What about Hungary, Poland, and Bohemia?

Oh c'mon- Hungary is a really big piece of land and until it's fall it was one of the 'firsts' in the central Europe; and Poland? In those days it was probably as big as it is now- and lemme tell ya that ain't little. France has formidable natural borders to rely on which contributes to its territorial success.

Gorion · 02-02-2006, 10:17

Oh well, it's the man's mod, if you don't like it just don't play it. I don't see why we should be arguing what he does with his copy of the game.

Riddermark · 02-02-2006, 12:09

You already killed his enthusiasm anyway

anti_strunt · 02-02-2006, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willelmus

As with I Killed Kenny, I rather like most of your EUII work, but I would have to say that this idea just doesn't work very well for a historically-based game.

Since when is CK a historically-based game? This ain't a history-repeat machine, and I've got Johan himself to back my words!

*Veldmaarschalk* · 02-02-2006, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by anti_strunt

Since when is CK a historically-based game? This ain't a history-repeat machine, and I've got Johan himself to back my words!

No, it shouldn't repeat history, but at the start of a scenario the setup is historical, and that is the case with all Paradox games. What happens after the start is totally random. So it is a historically based game.

I am not saying that MKJ's new mod isn't historical, but it least tries to deal with the problem that comes with the CK engine. In CK all kings are equal, while in reality this wasn't the case.

Byakhiam · 02-02-2006, 13:24

If you go around demoting all Iberian kings to dukes, I'd say the same arguments could well be said about kings of England really. You could then have whole British Isles as one kingdom of Great Britain.

And Nordic kingdoms & Scandinavia / Kalmar.

And Balkans, if you can stand the flaming that follows.

Willelmus · 02-02-2006, 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by anti_strunt

Since when is CK a historically-based game? This ain't a history-repeat machine, and I've got Johan himself to back my words!

Not so much a game about the repetition of history (there would be EUII-style determinitive events if that were the case), but more like a game made with the flavour of history. Kinda like Velveeta, which is "made with real cheese" - in other words, cheese was present somewhere in the building while it was being manufactured.

Since it has that history-esque flavour to it, why mess with that part of it? Let there be kings, and hordes of them.

anti_strunt · 02-02-2006, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willelmus

Not so much a game about the repetition of history (there would be EUII-style determinitive events if that were the case), but more like a game made with the flavour of history. Kinda like Velveeta, which is "made with real cheese" - in other words, cheese was present somewhere in the building while it was being manufactured.

Since it has that history-esque flavour to it, why mess with that part of it? Let there be kings, and hordes of them.

Indeed; personally I love having tons of small, easily claimable kingdoms. Makes a sudden rise in social status all the easier.

Regardless; if I actually wanted to play a game of the historical middle ages (rather than just a game based upon the middle ages), I'd play the MES for EUII. If I want to play CK (which I do, despite all my complaints), I'll do it for some fun random action, much like the Independent Europe scenario....

Point? My point? Ehm... any attempt to make CK behave realistically without access to the code is doomed...? Good enough?

Riddermark · 02-02-2006, 23:15

Quote:

And Balkans, if you can stand the flaming that follows.

oh yeah im first in line here

tarakan · 03-02-2006, 00:14

According To various Tsar of All Slavs events It all Belongs to Mother Russia

anti_strunt · 03-02-2006, 13:28

As for titles... there is plenty of "fudging" in CK as it is already, who has ever heard of a duchy of Flanders, for instance? Yet I see no complaints about that...

Ivar · 04-02-2006, 18:16

what your you want to do, is to emulate the TAGS from kingdoms to the empires and to put for example: Sacred Roman Empire, Hispania Empire, Roman Empire, etc? Great Idea!

Mad King James · 05-02-2006, 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byakhiam

If you go around demoting all Iberian kings to dukes, I'd say the same arguments could well be said about kings of England really. You could then have whole British Isles as one kingdom of Great Britain.

And Nordic kingdoms & Scandinavia / Kalmar.

And Balkans, if you can stand the flaming that follows.

Good idea. As to prestige, having a ton of duke titles equates you MORE prestige per month than having a king title and a ton of duke vassals, because you get the prestige bonus from your count vassals as well as your duchy titles, so that's not what this is about. This is about your social rank in comparison to other rulers.

I like one kingdom of Scandinavia, this would solve the problems Iberia faced (ie overrapid consolidation of Sweden and Norway with the independent republics and counties swearing fealty). Duchy England and Scotland would also allow for the "is he or isn't he?" situation between France and England, where he leaves his son and heir as Duke of Normandy, but a French Vassal, while he is an independent England.

I would definitely rename latin Dukes to Princes. They were often interchangeable, but Prince is more useable as a rank for independent as well as vassal rulers. I think Lord instead of Count would be better as well, to denote their role (lord over a piece of land) as opposed to a specific title.

27-01-2006, 23:31	#1
Mad King James Modding Anti-Christ Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 6,623	Title Redux I've decided that I think the game has way too many kingdom and duchy titles, and a lot of "kingdoms" are rather too weak to be so. Also, a lot of Moslem titles have been translated right into Christian equivalents. So I've started work on rectifying this. Already I have done the following: Demote Aragon to a Duchy, eliminating Spanish Marche. (SPMA is now called Aragon, uses Aragon CoA, replace ARAG with SPMA) Aragon duchy now covers Jaca, Salamanca, Catalyud, Albarracin. Rest of Spanish Marche and Zaragoza duchies to Catalonia duchy. Zaragoza now a moslem title, so I gave it the CoA of the Emirate. Demote Sancho to Duke of Castille, Kingdom of Castille now covers entire peninsula and is called Kingdom of Spain. Duchy of Castille extended to cover Burgos, Soria and Valladolid. Leon demoted to Duchy, eliminating Salamanca. (LEON to SALA) Duchy of Leon covers Leon, Salamanca and Zamora. Braganza renamed Portugal, a duchy title belonging at the start to Leon, but the count of Porto has a claim on it to start. Portugal duchy extended to cover Coimbra. Tejo title encompasses Viseu as well. Demote Kingdom of Navarra to Duke of Navarra (NAVA to DNAV). For my own game balance and historical concerns, I made Galicia and Portugal a count under Leon, who starts out as Duke of Galicia and Portugal as well. I also made Sancho of Castille a Brilliant Strategist instead of a tough soldier, as well as giving him the Selfish, Valorous, Trusting, Temperate and Chaste traits. (he never married, died for trusting his sister's peace envoy, lead his troops personally on the front lines, and wanted every title for himself and refused to accept his father's agreement). I then demoted Cordoba and Almeida to sheiks, renamed Cordoba to Andalusia to encompass both, and almeida to Denia and swapped out Mallorca's title for Denia. Finally I replaced most of Badajos with Extremadura, using Viseu's tag, and most of Toledo with La Mancha, using Coimbra's. Future plans include vastly reducing France's ducal titles. __________________ No good deed goes unpunished.

28-01-2006, 20:07	#2
I Killed Kenny Yuri Spectaculov Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Fighting Bolsheviks Posts: 1,472	I normally like your work in EUII but those iberian changes, sure suck... c'mon what do your changes have to do with history? __________________ Yuri Spectaculov's War - 4 Nations, one General

28-01-2006, 20:44	#3
Mad King James Modding Anti-Christ Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 6,623	It has to do mainly with the fact that the game is made for the French version of a king, duke and count in terms of the power they wielded. In Iberia a duke is a French count in terms of power, a king a duke, and only the united kingdom of Spain, which didn't really exist until 1477 at the earliest, is comparable to France. I plan on demoting a lot more titles, and expanding Rus a bit. I think 3-5 is a good number of provinces per duke, and ~50 for a king. __________________ No good deed goes unpunished. Last edited by Mad King James; 28-01-2006 at 20:51.

28-01-2006, 21:18	#4
I Killed Kenny Yuri Spectaculov Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Fighting Bolsheviks Posts: 1,472	dude you can claim balance, but please don't claim historiality... and I hiope Portugal is a formable kingdom, or will it not be? __________________ Yuri Spectaculov's War - 4 Nations, one General

01-02-2006, 19:40	#5
Willelmus Second Lieutenant Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 104	The titles, however, have absolutely nothing to do with actual power within the game, as they did not have anything really to do with power historically. The ranks have an associated level of dignity or prestige that would be severely diminished with these changes. After all, a king was a king, even if he didn't rule over a large realm. Although France was certainly one of the premier kingdoms in the medieval period, these changes would leave it as practically the only one. After all, neither England nor Scotland was historically as powerful or prestigious as France; should they, too, be demoted to the level of duchies? What about Hungary, Poland, and Bohemia? As well, the Capetian kings of France were nowhere near as powerful as the later Valois and Bourbon kings; should they also be relegated to the status of dukes, or even counts? Hey, why even bother with the king tier of titles at all? Practically none of the rulers in the medieval period actually had much real power anyway... More realistically, one could look at the matter of royal titles and power from the opposite direction. Specifically, that the kings of Castile, Aragon, Navarre, and Leon were all indeed powerful enought to be called kings, as was the king of France, but the extra size and power of France didn't make it have such significantly greater amount of prestige than the Iberian kingdoms. Much of the prestige of a title lay in the level of the title, not how much power it conveyed on the one who held the title. As with I Killed Kenny, I rather like most of your EUII work, but I would have to say that this idea just doesn't work very well for a historically-based game. __________________ "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." - Yoda on postmodernist academic writing

02-02-2006, 10:17	#7
Gorion Archivago Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The Green Hills of Earth Posts: 2,168	Oh well, it's the man's mod, if you don't like it just don't play it. I don't see why we should be arguing what he does with his copy of the game. __________________ "Yo flipo."

02-02-2006, 12:09	#8
Riddermark Evil Balkanite Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Bulgaria Posts: 2,179	You already killed his enthusiasm anyway __________________ The first and only Bulgarian to have bought EU3 Complete - based on a true story.

02-02-2006, 13:24	#11
Byakhiam Your Industrial Friend Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: London, UK Posts: 9,557	If you go around demoting all Iberian kings to dukes, I'd say the same arguments could well be said about kings of England really. You could then have whole British Isles as one kingdom of Great Britain. And Nordic kingdoms & Scandinavia / Kalmar. And Balkans, if you can stand the flaming that follows. __________________ Engages Duracell-Rabbit Mode every Saturday Double post? Edit and Delete!

03-02-2006, 00:14	#15
tarakan Colonel Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 801	According To various Tsar of All Slavs events It all Belongs to Mother Russia

03-02-2006, 13:28	#16
anti_strunt I'm Lazy. Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 2,818	As for titles... there is plenty of "fudging" in CK as it is already, who has ever heard of a duchy of Flanders, for instance? Yet I see no complaints about that... __________________ I couldn't really think of anything witty to put here, but you've got to have a signature, right? Can a human player with cores on half of Europe and four cultures defeat the AI and recreate the Roman Empire? The Kings and Queens of Sweden. Did I do that? Lurking Hanger-On (like a virtual barnacle, sort of) to the AGCEEP Project.

04-02-2006, 18:16	#17
Ivar Mariscal de Campo Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Paraná - Entre Ríos - Argentina Posts: 1,614	what your you want to do, is to emulate the TAGS from kingdoms to the empires and to put for example: Sacred Roman Empire, Hispania Empire, Roman Empire, etc? Great Idea! __________________ Para Gobernar, un oido a la Biblia y otro al Pueblo. NUEVO FORO VBULLETIN (mismo sistema que Paradox), PARADOXERS.CO.CC, DEDICADO A LA COMUNIDAD DE JUEGOS Y OT DE PARADOX, REGISTRATE. Nemo vir est qui mundum non reddat meliorem.