Japanese WWII Armoured Cars

[Semi-Lobster]

I'm working on the Wikipedia articles for Japanese WWII AFV's (I wrote the articles for the Type 1 Chi-He, Type 2 Ka-Mi, Type 98 Ke-Ni, Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha, Type 2 Ho-I, Type 3 Chi-Nu, and the Type 4 Ho-Ro and am working on several other articles right now) but now I've run into a problem. It seems that finding concrete information on Japanese armoured cars is... difficult. There's a lot of conflicting data, for example I have sources calling an odd rail-road/armoured car hybrid the Model 2593 'Sumida', The Type 2593 'Sumida' and the Model 91 'So-Mo', it's obvious from the pictures I have that they're all the same vehicle but find the name is difficult. And that's just ONE armoured car and at least I have a relatively good understanding about the vehicle but then there are some armoured cars that are baffling, with tons of stuff that contradicts other stuff! If anybody can help me with this, that would be great!

[TeutonicKnight]

Sadly, you have picked a subject that there is really not as much interest as other parts/equipment of WW2.

Just do the best you can and in case you can't find anything solid, then I would suggest putting an * beside each one that has a conflicting image and explain.

[Semi-Lobster]

Originally Posted by TeutonicKnight

Sadly, you have picked a subject that there is really not as much interest as other parts/equipment of WW2.

Just do the best you can and in case you can't find anything solid, then I would suggest putting an * beside each one that has a conflicting image and explain.

I am quite aware of the lack of interest Japanese AFV's but I am one who is attracted to the obscure. I would get bored to death if I got into another discussion on the invasion of Normandy or of Stalingrad but my ears would perk up if there is any mention about the disasterous defense of Norway, the Franco-Siamese War or Spain's Blue Division.

The problem is I have all the information on these vehicles, all the measurements, armament, etc. I just can't seem to get a name!

[Innocent]

I do not think it would look bad to say that "sources contradict on exactly what this name of this vehicle was, with..." or something similar if you cannot pinpoint the proper name. It is also possible that the vehicle simply has redundant names.

[Ribbentrop]

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster

I am quite aware of the lack of interest Japanese AFV's but I am one who is attracted to the obscure. I would get bored to death if I got into another discussion on the invasion of Normandy or of Stalingrad but my ears would perk up if there is any mention about the disasterous defense of Norway, the Franco-Siamese War or Spain's Blue Division.

The problem is I have all the information on these vehicles, all the measurements, armament, etc. I just can't seem to get a name!

Hm, so tell me about the Franco-Siamese war then.. you've perked my interest.

[Semi-Lobster]

Originally Posted by Innocent

I do not think it would look bad to say that "sources contradict on exactly what this name of this vehicle was, with..." or something similar if you cannot pinpoint the proper name. It is also possible that the vehicle simply has redundant names.

Well it is possible that some of the names might redundant. There could be differences between names for the navy and army but I'm pretty sure that when it comes down to it there was originally one name. Also whoever heard of a wikipedia article called Model 2593 Sumida/Type 2593/Model 91 So-Mo!

Originally Posted by Ribbentrop

Hm, so tell me about the Franco-Siamese war then.. you've perked my interest.

The Franco-Siamese War/French-Thai War was a war between Thailand (who was backed by Japan) and Vichy France between 1940-1941.

A basic summary here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French-Thai_War

And indepth here: http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/history/index.shtml under Vichy and Pearl Harbor, Vichy Indo-China vs Japan, 1940, Vichy OB in Indo-China, 1940-1945, Vichy Indo-China vs Siam, 1940-1941 and Siam Goes to War .

Battle of Koh Chang (or the only thing the French managed to do right against the Thais): http://www.btinternet.com/~david.man...r/kohchang.htm

[Veldmaarschalk]

I always wondered why there was no event in HoI and HoI2 about this war.

See also this site

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/wwars/thai.htm

[Mr.Penguin]

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster

I'm working on the Wikipedia articles for Japanese WWII AFV's (I wrote the articles for the Type 1 Chi-He, Type 2 Ka-Mi, Type 98 Ke-Ni, Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha, Type 2 Ho-I, Type 3 Chi-Nu, and the Type 4 Ho-Ro and am working on several other articles right now) but now I've run into a problem. It seems that finding concrete information on Japanese armoured cars is... difficult. There's a lot of conflicting data, for example I have sources calling an odd rail-road/armoured car hybrid the Model 2593 'Sumida', The Type 2593 'Sumida' and the Model 91 'So-Mo', it's obvious from the pictures I have that they're all the same vehicle but find the name is difficult. And that's just ONE armoured car and at least I have a relatively good understanding about the vehicle but then there are some armoured cars that are baffling, with tons of stuff that contradicts other stuff! If anybody can help me with this, that would be great!

The Type 2593 'Sumida' Armored Car is the same vehicle as the Model 91 'Broad-gauge Railroad Tractor'. The Type 2593 designation appears to be an early mis-labeling done by US intelligence, most likely due to some translation error. The name 'Sumida' comes from the truck that the Armored car was based on...


Mr.Penguin

[Semi-Lobster]

Originally Posted by Mr.Penguin

The Type 2593 'Sumida' Armored Car is the same vehicle as the Model 91 'Broad-gauge Railroad Tractor'. The Type 2593 designation appears to be an early mis-labeling done by US intelligence, most likely due to some translation error. The name 'Sumida' comes from the truck that the Armored car was based on...


Mr.Penguin

Haha! I knew I was right but I needed conformation on that! What about the Model 2592 Osaka? Is that it's correct name? And What about the Model/Type 92 Armoured Car (not be confused by the tankette of the same name)?

Originally Posted by Veldmaarschalk

I always wondered why there was no event in HoI and HoI2 about this war.

See also this site

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/wwars/thai.htm

Yes I forgot to mention that wonderful site, it was extremely useful for hours of research back in my old CORE days, I was working on a long series of events and such devoted to the French-Thai war but kept getting side-tracked and never got around to finishing it...

[Mr.Penguin]

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster

Haha! I knew I was right but I needed conformation on that! What about the Model 2592 Osaka? Is that it's correct name? And What about the Model/Type 92 Armoured Car (not be confused by the tankette of the same name)?

Ok now it beings to be thicky. First there is the Type 92 Armored Car used by the Army and then there is the model 92 Armored Car used by the navy...

The Army version is a 4 wheeled Armored Car, also called the Type 2592 'HoKoKu-Go' or just the 'Hokoku' Armored Car, but often also called the Type 2592 "Osaka", however that is refering to the distict or factory were it was made.

Just to make things more complicated, can you also can find Type 2592 Armored cars called "Kokusan", But the "Kokusan" Armored car are a 6 wheeled Armored car used by the Navy and commonly known as the Model 92 Navy Armored car...

And to make matters worse is also a other Type 2592 Armored Car, a 6 wheeled vehicle, called the "Chiyoda" or "Chiysda" that may or may not be a version of Model 91 'Broad-gauge Railroad Tractor', but without the railroad capability...

EDIT: the "Chiyoda" or "Chiysda" Armored Car appears to be simple trucks, that was up-armored and use to support the navy infanty doing the Japanese annexation of Manchuria...


Mr.Penguin

[Semi-Lobster]

Thank you Mr. Penguin.

With all these naming headaches I have some 'theories'. The Army and Navy 2592/Type 92 are the same basic vehicle but with different number of wheels for the two services from the pictures I've seen they all pretty much look like the same vehicle although the army one seems a bit smaller.

The Aikoku and Hokoku AC's are both semi-improvised and used by the SNLF and IJA based on the Chiyoda 6-wheel truck.

I am also having (understandable) difficulty in seperating actual vehicles build for the IJA and IJN and improvised armoured cars that seemed to have been slapped together en masse.

I have a tank question to throw out. Did Japan import all of it's Type 79's (Renault FT-17's) and Renault NC27's or did Japan ever build it's own?

And a question on suspension, should I assume, unless states otherwise that all Japanese AFV's used Tomio Hara's bell crank suspension?

[Mr.Penguin]

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster

Thank you Mr. Penguin.

With all these naming headaches I have some 'theories'. The Army and Navy 2592/Type 92 are the same basic vehicle but with different number of wheels for the two services from the pictures I've seen they all pretty much look like the same vehicle although the army one seems a bit smaller.

Dont thinks so they do look to different if you ask me...


Type 92 "Osaka" 'HoKoKu-Go' Armored Car


Model 92 Naval Armored car

The Aikoku and Hokoku AC's are both semi-improvised and used by the SNLF and IJA based on the Chiyoda 6-wheel truck.

I am also having (understandable) difficulty in seperating actual vehicles build for the IJA and IJN and improvised armoured cars that seemed to have been slapped together en masse.

Yes, that is one of the major difficulies with japanese Armor and to make matters worse do US sources mix up the use of "Armored cars" and "Combat Cars" when talking about light Japanese Armor tracked or wheeled...

I have a tank question to throw out. Did Japan import all of it's Type 79's (Renault FT-17's) and Renault NC27's or did Japan ever build it's own?

As far as I know was all the Renault Tanks imported...

And a question on suspension, should I assume, unless states otherwise that all Japanese AFV's used Tomio Hara's bell crank suspension?

More or less yes, it was the standard type of suspension from the early 30's


Mr.penguin

[Semi-Lobster]

So would the article titles would be:

Type 2592 'HoKoKu-Go'

Model/Type 92 Armoured Car (should it be Model or Type?)

Model 91 Broad-gauge Railroad Tractor

Chiyoda 6-Wheeled Track (and variants)?

[Mr.Penguin]

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster

So would the article titles would be:

Type 2592 'HoKoKu-Go'

Model/Type 92 Armoured Car (should it be Model or Type?)

Model 91 Broad-gauge Railroad Tractor

Chiyoda 6-Wheeled Track (and variants)?

The use of 'Model' and 'Type' is hard to judge, at first I though that "Type" was used by the Army and "Model" was used by the Navy, but there seems to be no real distinction between the use of them, so I think its a question about how the different sources has translated the Japanese word for "Model/Type"...

My proposal for the article titles would be:

Type 2592 'HoKoKu-Go' Armored car

Model 92 Naval Armored car

Model 91 Broad-gauge Railroad Tractor

Chiyoda 6-Wheeled Track and variants


Mr.Penguin

[Semi-Lobster]

I founda great site on Japanese AFV's.... but the site is in Japanese! Can someone with even basic Japanese help me out a little? Find info on the Type 98 So-Da in English is a bit hard

[Veldmaarschalk]

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster

I founda great site on Japanese AFV's.... but the site is in Japanese! Can someone with even basic Japanese help me out a little? Find info on the Type 98 So-Da in English is a bit hard

Sent a PM to Gratianus , he is Japanese. Maybe he can help you.

He makes graphics for CK. He is befriended with Finellach, so I am sure he will help you

[Mr.Penguin]

Here is a japanese site in english, hope it helps...

http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/

and note how he write "Type" insted of "Model", so I guess "Type" is the best way to go...


Mr.Penguin

[Semi-Lobster]

Originally Posted by Mr.Penguin

Here is a japanese site in english, hope it helps...

http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/

and note how he write "Type" insted of "Model", so I guess "Type" is the best way to go...


Mr.Penguin

Yah I've been using Taki's site forever pretty much Although his dimensions for the vehicles always seem to be slightly different from places like onwar.com and by books though. The site I'd like to have help with is this one:

http://earth.endless.ne.jp/users/mac...se%20army.html right now I'm trying to get help on this specific one though:

http://earth.endless.ne.jp/users/mac0115/soda.html The Type 98 So-Da