The Ten Kings of Venice

Grundius · 19-10-2005, 11:27

The Ten Kings of Venice

A Collaborative AAR

Welcome to the Ten Kings of Venice Collaborative AAR! This AAR will focus on the nation of Venice, where each player plays for 40 years (except the last player, who effectively gets 41 years), then hands the game to the next player. It was an idea by Carlec, posted here and later refined in this thread.
The order of play has been determined randomly (taking the wishes of the players into account) and is the following (each reign starting on the 1st of January, and ending on the 31st of December):

1419-1458 Grundius
1459-1498 Bocaj
1499-1538 Pellucid
1539-1578 G-Klav
1579-1618 SeanB
1619-1658 Fraese
1659-1698 Carlec
1699-1738 Wellington6868
1739-1778 General Guisan
1779-1819 Lurken

Game settings/house rules are the following:
AGCEEP 1.38
Very Hard/Normal
Fantasy Events off
Independent Wales off
No reloads (exceptions: CTDs, to wake up the AI)
No cheats

The game will be handed down through email.

PS Venice had doges, not kings. Yet Ten Kings of Venice has a nice ring to it, doesn't it

PPS This thread is for the AAR and replies on it only. Everything related to rules and such is discussed here.

General Guisan · 19-10-2005, 11:49

Thanks for opening the thread, I'm sure strict rules will help a lot, besides I guess everyone is free to play it in his style, because thats what this game should be for, a game in which 10 different rullers will gouvern their country, practically like an AI who chance its mind after every reload

A few more rules I like to ask for:

-Reloading at least in the middle of it's game period, because most AIs will probably fall asleep otherwise, so I usually make a safe&load every 10-15 years in SP, but I guess 20 years will still be fine. Otherwise it would be quite unfair for the AI. But I'm not sure how you will see this, and if you prefer to play 40 years in one row, it will be fine for me. The idea ist just to help the AI a little.

-Chance of ruller: Will it be in the middle of the year, or at the end, or can the date(month/day) of the savefile be choosen by the player who played till then, according to the events (like a war he just like to finish himself, or some alliances etc.)

-Will it be allowed to talk to the next players, just after finising it's own season, like "hinting" them what you would do next? I would prefer if you only talk about your playtime, and not what will be your plans in the future (like many AARs do, so you can compare what he wanted, and actually got) so the next player is completely free of his mind what to do. But again, if you would prefer to talk about your future plans/giving suggestions it will be fine for me..

Hope I didn't talked to much bs now

Lurken · 19-10-2005, 11:56

I say pass on the save on the first of january, and I would like to see no "hinting" on what the next player should do. As a matter of fact, I will not read any AARs about this game, to know as little as possible.

Oranje Verzet · 19-10-2005, 12:12

Good luck to you all and nice idea.

I am curious to see how all the different kings will rule the land.

Grundius · 19-10-2005, 12:31

1st of January is good, reloads to wake the AI are fine by me too.

Thanks Oranje Verzet, for your support. Stay tuned

carlec · 19-10-2005, 14:22

I agree about no hinting. The point of the experiement was that the leaders would not know any more about the game than a historical ruler. I suppose as a son of the monarch (though Venice's Doge's were elected), you might know something about the past. But I think we should keep a fog of war thing. So, for me that will mean I don't read anything about the AAR until it gets pretty far along--1659.

We do need to decide if we have all the rules and where we SHOULD talk about them. If we are going to not read the AAR and what the leaders did before us, then where can we go to make sure the rules are okay? Or is that more trouble than its worth?

And are we just going to PM the next person when its their turn to play to get their email to send the file?

Sounds like fun and can't wait to see the result. Shouldn't take us too long, should it?

Fnuco · 19-10-2005, 14:24

definitely had to subscribe to this thread.

best of luck to you all!

Fodoron · 19-10-2005, 14:30

I always welcome a new Venice AAR, and it would be my pleasure to see senator Cornaro (Carlec) implementing all the policies he defends in the senate meetings

.

Unlike most Venice AARs, this one has a good chance of seeing the end. Good luck, I will be watching and enjoying.

Lurken · 19-10-2005, 14:31

We can discuss the rules in the thread in EU2 subforum. Best place IMHO. Then we who shall play don't need to visit this thread.

carlec · 19-10-2005, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fodoron

I always welcome a new Venice AAR, and it would be my pleasure to see senator Cornaro (Carlec) implementing all the policies he defends in the senate meetings

.

Unlike most Venice AARs, this one has a good chance of seeing the end. Good luck, I will be watching and enjoying.

HAHA--yes, when its my turn, I'll be playing a powerful Cornaro Doge (there are several somewhere in that period)! Can't wait. Man, I'm going to need restraint just to not read how my fellow leaders are doing. It'll be a lot of fun to read the end result. I just need to figure out how to save all the pictures like you do Fodoron and to write the very interesting info that you add along the way.

Grundius · 19-10-2005, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurken

We can discuss the rules in the thread in EU2 subforum. Best place IMHO. Then we who shall play don't need to visit this thread.

Sounds fine by me.

G-Klav · 20-10-2005, 00:10

And we're going to write an AAR too?

I've never written one before...

Edit: Anyway, I've come up with a nice strategy I want to try out, I hope I'll succeed with it.

SeanB · 20-10-2005, 10:46

Hrm, looks like I get the late Renaissance/early Baroque. Okay then, sounds awesome.

stnylan · 20-10-2005, 20:42

It will be interesting to see what you chaps can do.

Pellucid · 20-10-2005, 22:11

I don't see any problems with hinting as long as you as a leader would do such a thing. I know I'm going to pretty much ignore what the previous ruler wanted to do and wander off on my own, since that's the kind of leader I am. If one of you is the kind of leader who finishes his predecessor's goals before starting his own, then you should have that privelege.

Deflare · 22-10-2005, 23:31

I don't see a problem with hinting. How often in history did rulers give their heirs advice on how to run the kingdom after their death? Quite a bloody lot, I imagine.

ws2_32 · 22-10-2005, 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deflare

I don't see a problem with hinting. How often in history did rulers give their heirs advice on how to run the kingdom after their death? Quite a bloody lot, I imagine.

Yes, but much of the time nobody knew who the next ruler would be until the time came. Heir today; gone tomorrow.

Grundius · 25-10-2005, 21:57

Finally, the first part of the AAR! I should have posted this earlier yet I lacked the time. I promised a post in the "rules" thread, and so here it is! It may not be a very long post, however, another one will follow before this week's end. Maybe even all the years that remain of reign. Well, enough chatter. The title of this post says it all

1419: The Peace of Dalmatia

In 1419, Venice was at war with Hungary. The Venetians had already conquered Dalmatia, and when a peace was offered to Hungary in exchange for the province, the Hungarians readily accepted. Venice was not ready to take more from the Hungarians and had, as it was, no issue with them. Whom they did have an issue with, were the heathens from Anatolia. The Ottoman Turk had been enchroaching onto Europe for some time now, and no power had stood up against them. The Doge Tommaso Mocenigo, made it his life task to stop them.

First, Venice needed to create a powerful foothold. The Doge ordered tax collectors to be hired. After ordaining more centralization and increasing funds to land and naval technology and the further improvement of infrastructure, while for the moment stopping all investments in trade research, the Doge ordered Tristano Savorgnan and his army to make ready for war. Morea, the traitors in Greece, held lands wich belonged to Venice. Furthermore, they were allied with Byzantium, an empire that had proven too weak to stand against the Turk.

The Byzantine War

War was declared against them on September 18th, 1420. Immediately Pietro Loredan, Grand Admiral, sailed to Morea. Tuscany and Hellas, allies of Venice,
attacked Morea but were unsuccessful, only interference of Savorgnan allowed them to lay siege to Morea. Savorgnan himself advanced to Byzantium, yet was short of having enough man. Had Venice acted too quickly? The nobles perhaps thought so, for they refused to enforce the ordnances. The nation became less stable. Armies were hastily recruited in Ionia to aid the siege in Byzantium.

The Ottomans Strike

But then, disaster struck. Tuscany entered war with the Ottomans, and Venice joined, a terrible mistake. The Ottomans pressed through Byzantium and drove Savorgnan out. The Venetians were hunted down until Savorgnan died and the army was disbanded. Tuscany annexed Morea in the mean time and peace was made with Byzantium and the Byzantines actual paid for it, yet this proved nothing to the Ottomans and allies. The Bosnians invaded Ragusa and amidst all these troubles, the nobles demanded more pensions! The fools must have thought money was no issue now! The Doge refused them these extravagancies. He then died, "prophecizing" that Venice would be none the better if they would pursue an expansionist policy. The new Doge, Francesco Foscarini, knew this all to well, as his predecessor had left him with an unwinnable war to fight. Loans were taken, not only to hire troops but to hire the services of Carmagnola. Not the most thrustworthy of followers, yet a capable leader nonetheless.

In 1424, the treaty of Macedonia gave Venice a claim to Macedonia. Despite the monetary benefits, it would serve Venice little. In a desperate action, the
entire army was loaded aboard ships and the fleet set sail to Anatolia. Led by Carmagnola, they would try to conquer the Turkish capital and force a white
peace, for the Turk and their allies had conquered Ionia and Ragusa and were advancing towards the great city of Venice itself. In 1425, Carmagnola invaded Anatolia and defeated the Turkish defenders. He settled in for a siege of the city when good fortune finally shined on Venice. Tuscany handed Morea to the Turk and a small monetary sum was paid. Venice was once again, at peace.

Her coffers were empty however and she owed the bankers to large loans. What would become of her?

Thoughts on playing Venice: The Trouble with The Turkish
So much for the first few years. I had hoped to grab Byzantium, although it would have cost me a lot of BB to do so. Note that this is my first game ever with Venice, and I overestimated their power. My major fault was honouring the alliance with Tuscany. It was a war I could not win. Had I taken Thrace, war with the Ottomans would have been inevitable, but I would have had a bettter foothold. Venice is an interesting nation to play and the next time I would have taken Thrace and ignored the Ottomans for now. As for the continuation of this AAR.... Hey, Tyrol, is that a gold-producing province I see?

stnylan · 25-10-2005, 22:02

A little over-extension never hurt anyone right

Venice is in a very interesting start position in 1419. You (or your successors) will need to address the Turks sooner or later however.

Fnuco · 25-10-2005, 22:16

ah, yes, my mistake also in my Venice games early on is trying to get as much as i can as fast as i can. But hey, i ended up a lot worse!

19-10-2005, 11:27	#1
Grundius Armchair Megalomaniac Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Usually below sea level Posts: 1,814	The Ten Kings of Venice The Ten Kings of Venice A Collaborative AAR Welcome to the Ten Kings of Venice Collaborative AAR! This AAR will focus on the nation of Venice, where each player plays for 40 years (except the last player, who effectively gets 41 years), then hands the game to the next player. It was an idea by Carlec, posted here and later refined in this thread. The order of play has been determined randomly (taking the wishes of the players into account) and is the following (each reign starting on the 1st of January, and ending on the 31st of December): 1419-1458 Grundius 1459-1498 Bocaj 1499-1538 Pellucid 1539-1578 G-Klav 1579-1618 SeanB 1619-1658 Fraese 1659-1698 Carlec 1699-1738 Wellington6868 1739-1778 General Guisan 1779-1819 Lurken Game settings/house rules are the following: AGCEEP 1.38 Very Hard/Normal Fantasy Events off Independent Wales off No reloads (exceptions: CTDs, to wake up the AI) No cheats The game will be handed down through email. PS Venice had doges, not kings. Yet Ten Kings of Venice has a nice ring to it, doesn't it PPS This thread is for the AAR and replies on it only. Everything related to rules and such is discussed here. __________________ Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong! Last edited by Grundius; 29-10-2005 at 19:12.

19-10-2005, 11:49	#2
General Guisan Onwards 2010! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 1,354 Blog Entries: 1	Thanks for opening the thread, I'm sure strict rules will help a lot, besides I guess everyone is free to play it in his style, because thats what this game should be for, a game in which 10 different rullers will gouvern their country, practically like an AI who chance its mind after every reload A few more rules I like to ask for: -Reloading at least in the middle of it's game period, because most AIs will probably fall asleep otherwise, so I usually make a safe&load every 10-15 years in SP, but I guess 20 years will still be fine. Otherwise it would be quite unfair for the AI. But I'm not sure how you will see this, and if you prefer to play 40 years in one row, it will be fine for me. The idea ist just to help the AI a little. -Chance of ruller: Will it be in the middle of the year, or at the end, or can the date(month/day) of the savefile be choosen by the player who played till then, according to the events (like a war he just like to finish himself, or some alliances etc.) -Will it be allowed to talk to the next players, just after finising it's own season, like "hinting" them what you would do next? I would prefer if you only talk about your playtime, and not what will be your plans in the future (like many AARs do, so you can compare what he wanted, and actually got) so the next player is completely free of his mind what to do. But again, if you would prefer to talk about your future plans/giving suggestions it will be fine for me.. Hope I didn't talked to much bs now __________________ Happy Tiger Year! Arsenal of Democracy - What HoI2 should have been, and now is.

19-10-2005, 11:56	#3
Lurken Time and Air Waster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: At the Temple of Mombot, cleaning out cobwebs Posts: 3,683	I say pass on the save on the first of january, and I would like to see no "hinting" on what the next player should do. As a matter of fact, I will not read any AARs about this game, to know as little as possible. __________________ Delende est FRA Proud owner of 3 mouldy Phoenix cookies ●●● Pathetic and Brave King of Poland in Battlefront IV - Lords of War Shifty Leader of <random/> nation in Diplomacy Universalis 1.5 Rythin, the mad warmongerer and Lurken, the semi-peaceful builder in "Lurken and Rythin in the land of sand - The wacky Mzab adventures." - it's aaalive....Well...not really. It is quite dead. Undead? Minister of Information and Groupies for OT-President rafiki ICQ: 267-216-225 The plight and return of B'mo'otm - an AAR, like I've never done before

19-10-2005, 12:31	#5
Grundius Armchair Megalomaniac Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Usually below sea level Posts: 1,814	1st of January is good, reloads to wake the AI are fine by me too. Thanks Oranje Verzet, for your support. Stay tuned __________________ Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!

19-10-2005, 14:22	#6
carlec Colonel Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Winter Park, FL--next door to Disney Posts: 995	I agree about no hinting. The point of the experiement was that the leaders would not know any more about the game than a historical ruler. I suppose as a son of the monarch (though Venice's Doge's were elected), you might know something about the past. But I think we should keep a fog of war thing. So, for me that will mean I don't read anything about the AAR until it gets pretty far along--1659. We do need to decide if we have all the rules and where we SHOULD talk about them. If we are going to not read the AAR and what the leaders did before us, then where can we go to make sure the rules are okay? Or is that more trouble than its worth? And are we just going to PM the next person when its their turn to play to get their email to send the file? Sounds like fun and can't wait to see the result. Shouldn't take us too long, should it? __________________ "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried." G.K. Chesterton Grand Campaign questions start to finish for the newbie Questions, answers, strategy, advice--a great starting place for the new player! The focus is EU2, and was written playing version 1.8, but the overall strategy and ideas are still useful in FtG.

19-10-2005, 12:12	#4
Oranje Verzet Mombotian Marshal Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Moving around till I find a nice place to rest my feet Posts: 1,577	Good luck to you all and nice idea. I am curious to see how all the different kings will rule the land.

19-10-2005, 14:24	#7
Fnuco I follow the Hawk Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Romania <-> Italy Posts: 2,999	definitely had to subscribe to this thread. best of luck to you all! __________________ AARs: Pictorial and gameplay - China: The Yellow Fever - Favorite EU2 Gameplay AAR Q2 2006, Q1 2007, Q2 2007 Comedy - England: All your COT are belong to us - Weekly AAR Showcase 25-02-07, Favorite EU2 AAR Q1 2007, Favorite EU2 Comedy AAR Q2 2007 History book - Spain: The final frontier *You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.*

19-10-2005, 14:30	#8
Fodoron Amnistiado por viejuno Join Date: May 2004 Location: province 436 Posts: 5,495	I always welcome a new Venice AAR, and it would be my pleasure to see senator Cornaro (Carlec) implementing all the policies he defends in the senate meetings . Unlike most Venice AARs, this one has a good chance of seeing the end. Good luck, I will be watching and enjoying. __________________ AGCEEP High Council Member You can be a senator of the Serenissima Republic of Venice. Come to the Democratic BAR and vote to have your policies implemented. Download the second version of the Introductory guide to EU2. The best stand-alone guide for EU2.

19-10-2005, 14:31	#9
Lurken Time and Air Waster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: At the Temple of Mombot, cleaning out cobwebs Posts: 3,683	We can discuss the rules in the thread in EU2 subforum. Best place IMHO. Then we who shall play don't need to visit this thread. __________________ Delende est FRA Proud owner of 3 mouldy Phoenix cookies ●●● Pathetic and Brave King of Poland in Battlefront IV - Lords of War Shifty Leader of <random/> nation in Diplomacy Universalis 1.5 Rythin, the mad warmongerer and Lurken, the semi-peaceful builder in "Lurken and Rythin in the land of sand - The wacky Mzab adventures." - it's aaalive....Well...not really. It is quite dead. Undead? Minister of Information and Groupies for OT-President rafiki ICQ: 267-216-225 The plight and return of B'mo'otm - an AAR, like I've never done before

20-10-2005, 10:46	#13
SeanB Major Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 790	Hrm, looks like I get the late Renaissance/early Baroque. Okay then, sounds awesome.

20-10-2005, 20:42	#14
stnylan Compulsive CommentatAAR Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Taunton, UK Posts: 17,018 Blog Entries: 7	It will be interesting to see what you chaps can do. __________________ To view is human, to comment is divine. "Be not afraid" - John Paul II "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton. Completed AAR: In Memory of France EU2 View my full AAR list at The Inkwell My blog From Across the Pond and My library, and my Paradox blog Ask not what AARland can do for you, but what you can do for AARland. If you are writing a HoI3 AAR, remember to report it in the LibrAARy update thread for inclusion in the HoI3 LibrAARy.

20-10-2005, 22:11	#15
Pellucid Byzantophile 1st Class Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,074	I don't see any problems with hinting as long as you as a leader would do such a thing. I know I'm going to pretty much ignore what the previous ruler wanted to do and wander off on my own, since that's the kind of leader I am. If one of you is the kind of leader who finishes his predecessor's goals before starting his own, then you should have that privelege.

22-10-2005, 23:31	#16
Deflare First Lieutenant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 262	I don't see a problem with hinting. How often in history did rulers give their heirs advice on how to run the kingdom after their death? Quite a bloody lot, I imagine.

25-10-2005, 21:57	#18
Grundius Armchair Megalomaniac Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Usually below sea level Posts: 1,814	Pride Comes Before The Fall Finally, the first part of the AAR! I should have posted this earlier yet I lacked the time. I promised a post in the "rules" thread, and so here it is! It may not be a very long post, however, another one will follow before this week's end. Maybe even all the years that remain of reign. Well, enough chatter. The title of this post says it all 1419: The Peace of Dalmatia In 1419, Venice was at war with Hungary. The Venetians had already conquered Dalmatia, and when a peace was offered to Hungary in exchange for the province, the Hungarians readily accepted. Venice was not ready to take more from the Hungarians and had, as it was, no issue with them. Whom they did have an issue with, were the heathens from Anatolia. The Ottoman Turk had been enchroaching onto Europe for some time now, and no power had stood up against them. The Doge Tommaso Mocenigo, made it his life task to stop them. First, Venice needed to create a powerful foothold. The Doge ordered tax collectors to be hired. After ordaining more centralization and increasing funds to land and naval technology and the further improvement of infrastructure, while for the moment stopping all investments in trade research, the Doge ordered Tristano Savorgnan and his army to make ready for war. Morea, the traitors in Greece, held lands wich belonged to Venice. Furthermore, they were allied with Byzantium, an empire that had proven too weak to stand against the Turk. The Byzantine War War was declared against them on September 18th, 1420. Immediately Pietro Loredan, Grand Admiral, sailed to Morea. Tuscany and Hellas, allies of Venice, attacked Morea but were unsuccessful, only interference of Savorgnan allowed them to lay siege to Morea. Savorgnan himself advanced to Byzantium, yet was short of having enough man. Had Venice acted too quickly? The nobles perhaps thought so, for they refused to enforce the ordnances. The nation became less stable. Armies were hastily recruited in Ionia to aid the siege in Byzantium. The Ottomans Strike But then, disaster struck. Tuscany entered war with the Ottomans, and Venice joined, a terrible mistake. The Ottomans pressed through Byzantium and drove Savorgnan out. The Venetians were hunted down until Savorgnan died and the army was disbanded. Tuscany annexed Morea in the mean time and peace was made with Byzantium and the Byzantines actual paid for it, yet this proved nothing to the Ottomans and allies. The Bosnians invaded Ragusa and amidst all these troubles, the nobles demanded more pensions! The fools must have thought money was no issue now! The Doge refused them these extravagancies. He then died, "prophecizing" that Venice would be none the better if they would pursue an expansionist policy. The new Doge, Francesco Foscarini, knew this all to well, as his predecessor had left him with an unwinnable war to fight. Loans were taken, not only to hire troops but to hire the services of Carmagnola. Not the most thrustworthy of followers, yet a capable leader nonetheless. In 1424, the treaty of Macedonia gave Venice a claim to Macedonia. Despite the monetary benefits, it would serve Venice little. In a desperate action, the entire army was loaded aboard ships and the fleet set sail to Anatolia. Led by Carmagnola, they would try to conquer the Turkish capital and force a white peace, for the Turk and their allies had conquered Ionia and Ragusa and were advancing towards the great city of Venice itself. In 1425, Carmagnola invaded Anatolia and defeated the Turkish defenders. He settled in for a siege of the city when good fortune finally shined on Venice. Tuscany handed Morea to the Turk and a small monetary sum was paid. Venice was once again, at peace. Her coffers were empty however and she owed the bankers to large loans. What would become of her? Thoughts on playing Venice: The Trouble with The Turkish So much for the first few years. I had hoped to grab Byzantium, although it would have cost me a lot of BB to do so. Note that this is my first game ever with Venice, and I overestimated their power. My major fault was honouring the alliance with Tuscany. It was a war I could not win. Had I taken Thrace, war with the Ottomans would have been inevitable, but I would have had a bettter foothold. Venice is an interesting nation to play and the next time I would have taken Thrace and ignored the Ottomans for now. As for the continuation of this AAR.... Hey, Tyrol, is that a gold-producing province I see? __________________ Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong! Last edited by Grundius; 25-10-2005 at 23:07.

25-10-2005, 22:02	#19
stnylan Compulsive CommentatAAR Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Taunton, UK Posts: 17,018 Blog Entries: 7	A little over-extension never hurt anyone right Venice is in a very interesting start position in 1419. You (or your successors) will need to address the Turks sooner or later however. __________________ To view is human, to comment is divine. "Be not afraid" - John Paul II "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton. Completed AAR: In Memory of France EU2 View my full AAR list at The Inkwell My blog From Across the Pond and My library, and my Paradox blog Ask not what AARland can do for you, but what you can do for AARland. If you are writing a HoI3 AAR, remember to report it in the LibrAARy update thread for inclusion in the HoI3 LibrAARy.

25-10-2005, 22:16	#20
Fnuco I follow the Hawk Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Romania <-> Italy Posts: 2,999	ah, yes, my mistake also in my Venice games early on is trying to get as much as i can as fast as i can. But hey, i ended up a lot worse! __________________ AARs: Pictorial and gameplay - China: The Yellow Fever - Favorite EU2 Gameplay AAR Q2 2006, Q1 2007, Q2 2007 Comedy - England: All your COT are belong to us - Weekly AAR Showcase 25-02-07, Favorite EU2 AAR Q1 2007, Favorite EU2 Comedy AAR Q2 2007 History book - Spain: The final frontier *You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.*