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All OOC: Ok... so I agree that we can not change the whole air wing on our own and will need to follow the RAF. In this case perhaps Sir Thomas, Camm, maybe Wolfe and the RAF should get together to try and put forward a joint RAF & FAA proposition to the major companies.

The engine is probably the easiest, as the RAF and FAA will both want the same sort of thing. Perhaps we can get a joint 'competion' between Bristol, RR and Napier & Co. The winner would probably be Bristol but the Napier was also a damed good engine.

Especialy with the Typhoon/Tempest/Fury and their naval 'sisters' this may well be the aim of the RAF for their fighter squadrons. If this is the case the RAF and FAA can go back to the companies looking for something like this spec that is easy to 'navalise'. The Typhoon can be found to be a nasty fighter and be transfered to the CAS role (and bomber role in the FAA) with the Fury becoming the main fighter for the RAF and FAA.

Time Line;

Now: Sea Gladiator / Swordfish

To: F.5/34 / Suka (strike) / Swordfish (torp & recon)

To: Typhoon (fighter) / Barracuda (or if it's not ready yet then maybe the F.5/34 converted, if possible as the 'Zero' was)

To: Tempest or Fury (fighter) / Typhoon (strike & recon) / Barracuda (torp)

Each development would come with the next carrier design as per CAG's in game

Well what do you guys think?
 
Lieutenant Smithers had been enjoying the conversation about the possibilities of future aircraft types and thinking about R. J. Mitchell’s F37/34, now that should be a top notch crate, but would it be any good for deck work? If they wanted innovative well engineered designs that you could rely on then Miles would be worth considering…he had self-consciously run has fingers through his close-cropped hair and suddenly remembered that apart from himself Lyons was the only Naval Aviator there, and even his hair might cause him trouble these days if he found himself in oily water. How many of the others were even flyers? The whole thing was turning quite ridiculous, the kind of conversation you might have over drinks, not how the meeting was supposed to turn out at all. He supposed that now at last Lyons would offer an astute opinion or that the First Sea Lord would get the meeting back onto the proper course. This was just putting the cart before the horse: what had to be redefined, now that the Naval Air Branch was back under Admiralty control, and we were seeing the effects of air-warfare with high-speed metal monoplanes with multiple guns and heavy bomb loads, now that dictators were ranting and raving, while both they and democracies re-armed, now it seemed that death and destruction was liable to rain down from the skies, what was needed, what had to be done first, was to define what job naval-aviation was actually meant to do, then design the machines to do it and the ships to carry them, work out how to use them properly, and then train to do the job. This though was neither the time nor place for that. What was imperative at this moment was to ensure that the carrier taking shape beyond the window even as they spoke, was to ensure she didn’t end up being a pig in a poke. Her job, fundamentally, was going to be to travel enormous distances at high speed when ordered and to carry out any task on arrival in the operational area. That wouldn’t change. To do that she needed legs, she needed decent-sized aircraft lifts that worked quickly and reliably, and she needed space to house and manoeuvre enough aircraft and their spares, stores, ammo, fuel and repair shops to get the job done. True, he didn’t want to set to sea in a tin can, but without enough ‘planes to do the job, what was the point? And anyway, the rest of the navy was there to be the carrier's armour. This ship might easily have a life of twenty or more years…and who knew how big ‘planes would be then?
 
OOC: Time to move it on, like the boss says...

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Wolfe was starting to feel hungry, he suddenly rembered the his dinner with Miss Ledgerton, the only bright spot on these islands. Nobody had answered his question, but that wasn't important. He decided to move the discusion on from theoretical aircraft back to the ship herself.

"So in any regard were primarily here for the ship... what are we going for planes or armour? I think deck and belt and gewt as many 'crates' on board as possible."

Wolfe left it at that, he hopped the meeting could be wrapped up soon and he could get to his dinner on time.
 
SirCliveWolfe said:
OOC: Time to move it on, like the boss says...

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Wolfe was starting to feel hungry, he suddenly rembered the his dinner with Miss Ledgerton, the only bright spot on these islands. Nobody had answered his question, but that wasn't important. He decided to move the discusion on from theoretical aircraft back to the ship herself.

"So in any regard were primarily here for the ship... what are we going for planes or armour? I think deck and belt and gewt as many 'crates' on board as possible."

Wolfe left it at that, he hopped the meeting could be wrapped up soon and he could get to his dinner on time.

OOC: I suppose that the whole discussion about CAWs can be continued via PM, back to the R-whatever design!

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Vice Admiral Lyons smiled, "I think what we came up with before all of the discussion on the air wings started, was that it would be a compromise between armour and to accomodate approximately four or five squadrons."

Sir Thomas smiled at Sir Rebbeck, "Well this certainly has been interesting, I think you have a better idea of what we want." The First Sea Lord glanced at representative from Short, "I think it's time to see what your fighter can do, and to come up with some new air wing requirements. Any other comments?"

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OOC: I guess that'll allow those involved some time to think and come up with something more coherent. Our poor PM is already confused enough as it is. ;)
 
OOC: As you wind up this conversation I hought I’d point out the variables between RL and this AAR. The RAF has not spent a penny on CAS since Jan 1936 and only medium and large framed aircraft have been pursued as bombers. Indeed, this may be why the multi role fighter currently being looked at by the RAF is so needed!

Fairey havn’t built the Battle and other designers would also be similarly affected with lighter workloads. Although I know next to nothing about the aircraft in development at this time, I do know that the RAF spent considerable time in the 30’s on light bomber designs. If this had stalled at the beginning of ‘36 as has been the case here, would that free up some companies time to work on other projects? Could they have started to pitch ideas at the RN instead?

As I said, food for thought for when you take this up with the fly boys…….. oh, and at this stage it is expected that the Sunderland naval bomber (another large airframed project) will be developed some time this year…….. just another variable for your discussion.

Cheers,
Dury.

P.S. Next up, RAF's turn to shine. Perhaps they will have something to add to this discussion at the event on the 9th?!? :)
 
Sir Rebbeck sighed to himself, he was wondering if working for the Admiralty was worth the hassel. They'd arrived with a completely changed specification, which they hadn't told anyone else about, and now they were leaving him with a design requirement of "approximately four or five" squadrons.

The designers could produce a carrier with capacity of anywhere between 40 and 70 aircraft and still meet that specification! Worse Sir Wallace was all smiles and going on about how Harland and Wolff had a better idea now.

They'd known perfectly what was wanted, all you had to do was looke at the design specification in the original contract. If the First Sea Lord had changed it and not informed them it was hardly surprising the R-87 wasn't what they expected. Perhaps now they'd realise that no-one, not even the best H&W had to offer, where psychic and if they wanted a different design, it was best to tell people.

--

Charles Naysmith caught Sir Rebbeck's eye, exchanged an agreeing glance, then nodded at one of his assistants in the corner of the room. With the arrangements made he turned to the room.

"Gentlemen if you could follow me we'll proceed down to the main display hall where we have one of the latest F.5/34s* and a representative from Blackburn has a Skua for your inspection prior to the flypast."

With that he got up and headed for the door.

----
OOC: I've dropped the Gannet name, knowing Gloster it wont get named unless someone is going to buy it!
 
OOC: Pippy, it's called being civil. Guess that's what happens when you deal with engineers. :p
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"Lead the way, Admiral Lyons, perhaps if you bring a couple of your pilots, they'll be able to come up with a more comprehensive opinion on these aircraft." Sir Thomas sighed, it appeared that they were speaking different dialects of the same language. Lyons's request was for a carrier of 50 to 60 aircraft, which would fit four squadrons with plenty of spares, or five squadrons to the brim. Since Harland and Wolff were the only ones with any expertise in aircraft carriers the Admiralty had to deal with them.

Either way, a new series of requirements would be necessary for future carriers and their air wings. And now it appeared with some tweaking, the Royal Navy would have true carriers, at least Sir Thomas could be happy about that. Before the Admirals got to the aircraft he got all of his people's attention, "Alright, I believe it is time to make sense of this mess, I believe that we need a couple of days to think and then we need to meet back at the Admiralty with all of your opinions on this design, including yours Admiral Fitzpatrick, if you don't mind. There's potential here, and we need to take it. Now let us inspect these aircraft."

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OOC: Dury yeah the FAA can probably step in with contracts to Fairy, Westland, Hawker, Blackburn, De Havilland, Gloster, and Supermarine (not the Seafire).

RAF, I can imagine will probably take out contracts with Hawker, De Havilland and Supermarine, and they have several companies for their own use.
 
SirCliveWolfe said:
All OOC: Ok... so I agree that we can not change the whole air wing on our own and will need to follow the RAF. In this case perhaps Sir Thomas, Camm, maybe Wolfe and the RAF should get together to try and put forward a joint RAF & FAA proposition to the major companies.

The engine is probably the easiest, as the RAF and FAA will both want the same sort of thing.

OOC: Well, if this can happen we'll be in good shape. Perhaps one of the greatest stumbling blocks in the pre-war years was lack of cooperation between the British services. We are fortunate that the RAF is in small-planes mode and not in control of the bomber barons.

I need to go to the R-87 again real fast and I am done. Poor Sticks hasn't gotten a look at it. ;)

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'Nothing like coming to a meeting about carrier design and talking aircraft,' Sticks thought bitterly.

"Might I see the design? It would be a pity to fly all this way for nought."

That brought a smile from Sir Thomas who nodded.

His aviator side scoffed at it. A single, short hangar that was completely enclosed in armor. He hated that more than anything else. She was built to be a warship first and to operate aircraft second. He'd have to mention something about that.

He shook himself out of aviator mode and looked at the ship itself as a naval engineer. She was a heavy ship, much heavier than current US designs other than the two battlecruiser conversions though he knew that US designers were currently looking at designs for a fleet carrier around 27,000 tons but that was still some years away. He marvelled at the smartness of the design and the weight savings.

He traced his fingers along the lines and took no note of his surroundings. "She's uses the tonnage to the fullest. I think we could learn a bit from this," he thought aloud. He continued talking to no one in particular, "This armor layout baffles me." "She needs backup power systems in case of battle damage but maybe it will be added in case of war, diesel pumps..."

An aide mumbled something most could not hear, "No worries, I'm not stark raving mad...a bit touched perhaps, but not mad. I talk when I'm thinking and when I'm talking, I talk with my hands and I hear very well when I have my eyes closed but that is not why we are here, no?"

He turned to Sir Thomas and Admiral Lyons. "I think you've discussed most of this but since you asked me here I'll give you my evalution for what it is worth."

Sir Thomas nodded and said, "That's why I asked you to come."

"Firstly, I like the design overall as a warship. She is very well designed and the weight usage is most excellent. I can't see a way to improve that aspect of the design other than at the expense of other systems. It says alot about the design team and engineers here, they are superb."

Sticks thought is was best to say the good first and the bad last. "That being said, I know my country would never except these ships as carriers. They don't fit our vision of carrier aviation and we have to build our ships with the Pacific in mind and her small air crew and the relatively poor aircraft facilities would not do as we envision having to fight out of range of land based air support. I find the inclusion of 'an armored box' most damning as aircraft cannot warm up in the hangar and all that weight precludes a second hangar and the hangar included is relatively small. I can't say where carrier aviation is going to go for certain but I do know that aircraft continue to grow in sheer size and if one hopes to get years of service from a ship that one needs to plan for that."

He paused to look around and what he saw was mixed reactions. Sticks didn't like it but he needed to finish. "I think that the best change would be to lessen or preferably remove the hangar side armor to allow for improved aircraft handling and space. This comes at the price of 'direct protection' but the larger air group is protection in and of itself. US practice is to either strike first and hard to prevent enemy aircraft from attacking the ship and failing that to have enough defensive aircraft to protect the ships."

He wasn't sure they got it so he continued. "Look at is this way. A ship's armor can only protect the ship it is on. Additional aircraft carried abroad can help protect every ship travelling nearby. That is our take on the matter anyways."

Sticks smiled, "That's all I have," but he left unsaid one thing he was thinking. 'I hope they actually build enough aircraft to fill their carriers.' as Sticks knew that had not been the case in the past.
 
Sir Thomas smiled, "Ah, yes I fully suspected that the American Navy would not accept such a carrier, but here's the thing, if the American Navy had our carriers, would they accept this design?"

"I'm certain Admiral Lyons here would love to have enough aircraft to both send in a sizable strike and defend his carriers, but right now his airwings of both of his carriers combined currently equal the size of the airwing proposed on the R-87."

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OOC: Now if the RN aircraft carriers were all Ark Royal-class, that might be slightly different.
 
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As the Admiralty felt determind to run the Royal Navy down Sir Rebbeck felt he had to defend it

"As the American navy currently only has two conversion carriers in the Lexingtons and the Ranger which, by all accounts, doesn't operate well in bad weather or rough seas I suspect they, much like the Admiralty, would take anything they could get."

Despite his inital reactions Sir Rebbeck felt a liking for this Admiral Fitzpatrick fellow. Of course it's hard not to like a man who's complemented your work and who's only complaints have been ones you yourself have been making. What's more he seemed to be right, to Sir Rebbecks way of thinking. He wasn't an expert on tactics or strategy, grand or otherwise, but he could read a designation. 'Aircraft Carrier' to him meant a ship designed to carry aircraft not fight gun battles. For that you wanted a Battleship.

He smiled as he remembered some advice from his old boss Lord Pirrie "If you don't know what a ship should be able to do, try not to be the one who builds it. If you have to build it the clue is normally in the name." If only he'd remembered that advice a few months ago. No that was wrong. No point blaming himself, the Admiralty had issued the spec for an armoured carrier so he hadn't had much choice in the matter anyway.
 
OOC: Tear down the Royal Navy, such rubbish...

That is unless the AI didn't, unfortunately I lost my save game for my home computer. Kinda what happens when the hard drive craps out on you.
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"Sir Rebbeck, I believe you forget the aircraft carrier the US Navy commissioned last year was the Yorktown, probably their best carrier at this point. And again, their philosophy in terms of aircraft capacity gives them the luxury to pick and choose their design."

The First Sea Lord frowned, the requirements put forward for the eventual R-87 design was put down well before he became the First Sea Lord. In fact, he was not even certain who made the requirements, Sir Humphrey was primarily concerned with the King George V-class Battleships, and Admiral Tulp wasn't in there long at all before his turn. If anything the demand for quality and durability got through, but little else.
 
OOC: Yorktown won't be commisioned till September or so in OTL, when it comes out in the game I have no idea.

"And again, their philosophy in terms of aircraft capacity gives them the luxury to pick and choose their design."

Hey? What on earth does that mean? The US navy wants large aircraft capacity so they can't pick and choose designs, they have to pick the unarmoured and light on gun designs. Just as the Royal Navy has/had to pick the armoured designs to match their philosophy.

Unless of course I missed the point entirely, it wouldn't be the first time. :D
 
El Pip said:
OOC: Yorktown won't be commisioned till September or so in OTL, when it comes out in the game I have no idea.

Yes but it was launched in April '36 and laid down in '34 and with the USN and RN in close contact, we'd certainly know the specs... :)
 
SirCliveWolfe said:
Yes but it was launched in April '36 and laid down in '34 and with the USN and RN in close contact, we'd certainly know the specs... :)

OOC: Pippy, in game it launches in September 1936.

Considering that the American carriers generally hold anywhere from 70-90 aircraft, they can afford to be a little picky with their fleet carriers. They may only have 4 aircraft carriers, but they have minature airforces on them.

Can't say the same about the FAA though, essentially means they have no choice. Doesn't mean that the Admiralty will stop annoying Sir Rebbeck though. :p

Correct Wolfey, especially when the Admiralty has access to a USN Admiral too. ;)
 
OOC: Jeez, I like how you guys wind up a conversation! :rolleyes:

There is a list of aircraft for modding that seems like a finished list, but I’ll only accept it from the First Sea Lord. Addy – PM me the changes……. And I’ll email you another save if you resend me your address again.

Are the fly boys out there??? I order you to post :mad: ……. Please! :D

Dury.
 
OOC: While you wait for the flyboys, i'll make a little entry
....................................................................................................

Lt.General Kandolf entered his command bunker and prepared for the wargame. 1 regiment of infantry would charge a hill with a "Dummy" regiment.

"You may proceed, Colonel" he said in the radio.

First came artillery. Several howitzers pounded the hill flat together with mortars

...................................................................................................

OOC: I don't have time for more right now
 
Duritz said:
OOC: Jeez, I like how you guys wind up a conversation! :rolleyes:

There is a list of aircraft for modding that seems like a finished list, but I’ll only accept it from the First Sea Lord. Addy – PM me the changes……. And I’ll email you another save if you resend me your address again.

Are the fly boys out there??? I order you to post :mad: ……. Please! :D

Dury.

OOC: Hey, I tried.

I sent Wolfey a revised list to see what he thinks, because it doesn't go quite far enough, and we could fit in a little variety, and haven't recieved a reply quite yet. But I suppose I'll polish it up and send it to you.
 
Duritz said:
OOC: Jeez, I like how you guys wind up a conversation! :rolleyes:

There is a list of aircraft for modding that seems like a finished list, but I’ll only accept it from the First Sea Lord. Addy – PM me the changes……. And I’ll email you another save if you resend me your address again.

Are the fly boys out there??? I order you to post :mad: ……. Please! :D

Dury.

Sorry Dury, I was absent a couple of days and felt I needed to say what I wanted to say. The blame for the delay falls to me.
 
Adaml83 said:
Sir Thomas smiled, "Ah, yes I fully suspected that the American Navy would not accept such a carrier, but here's the thing, if the American Navy had our carriers, would they accept this design?"

'Perhaps if we had followed the path of carrier aviation the Empire has. As it was, we were fortunate to get the Lexington and Saratoga as a part of the Washington Naval Treaty and while they aren't optimal, their air groups are still rather large so we got a taste of what was capable with a large air group and this shows in our Fleet Problems. To be honest, we are quite in love of of the idea of cramming as many aircraft as possible on the tonnage we have left so I might be a bit biased," and he smiled.

"We were also fortunate the inherit the Royal Navy's designs, doctrine and experiences as well and then take them and try new ideas expanding off the older ideas. Plus, there is the Empire of Japan to consider as well and while we might have by far the larger navy we have two oceans to worry about so we look for any advantage we can get from any and all classes of ships. I know that this last problem is one you share as the Empire has three oceans to worry over and the Med."

El Pip said:
"As the American navy currently only has two conversion carriers in the Lexingtons and the Ranger which, by all accounts, doesn't operate well in bad weather or rough seas I suspect they, much like the Admiralty, would take anything they could get."

Sticks didn't like that the problems with USS Ranger were known. 'No matter, I suppose.' "Well, Ranger does have her share of problems in heavy seas and she'll likely be used as an experimental carrier when the reconversion work on Langley is done. Yorktown is still on shakedown cruises but we've found her capable of 96 aircraft which isn't too shabby on just under 20,000 tons. In one of these tubes is plans for CV-7, a sort of improved Ranger in scale. I also have some very rough concepts for a new fleet carrier but that work is very much in its infancy and until fleet operations are conducted with Yorktown and her sister I doubt they will be advanced for some time."
 
OOC: Braedy - don't be sorry, just don't do it! :mad:

Wolfey, your PM box is full, please empty so I can [slap] you again.

Other than that - good to see the army expending their budget usefully Kenny! :D

Cheers,
Dury.

P.S. Delay will be minimal, fly boys or no we will be pushing ahead soon!