El Pip said:Yes but the aircraft is only any good if it has a Merlin engine though.
OOC: Or, even better, a Pratt & Whitney R-2800, but perhaps I reveal too much about my favorite airframe of the war.
Ruddy
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OOC: Or, even better, a Pratt & Whitney R-2800, but perhaps I reveal too much about my favorite airframe of the war.
Ruddy
"Excellent point, Mr. de Havilland. Speed is nice, but for our purposes not that essential; any speed over 200 mph will place us superior to German close support aircraft. Indeed, too much speed will cause all sorts of problems for the dive itself.
"We require an aircraft capable of at least 750 miles range. We do not anticipate missions of that length, but the more range we have the better our loiter time over target while the Army provides us with targeting data.
"We require a forward armament sufficient to the task of strafing soft targets and rear armament capable of making a fighter cautious enough to allow our brethren in Fighter Command time to come to our aid.
"For bomb load, the airframe should be capable of carrying a minimum of 500 pounds of munitions. Rack space should be provided for this load to consist of a single bomb of that size, two bombs half that size, or a mixture of smaller bombs as determined necessary by the mission profile.
"We require a communication suite that is capable of broadcast over both RAF and Army comm systems.
"And, finally, we require armoring sufficient to protect the crew, engine, and fuel tanks from small arms and light machine gun fire from the ground."
Air Commodore Digby glanced around the room at his colleagues. "Does anyone have further requirements or specifications to add?"
"We require an aircraft capable of at least 750 miles range. We do not anticipate missions of that length, but the more range we have the better our loiter time over target while the Army provides us with targeting data.
"We require a forward armament sufficient to the task of strafing soft targets and rear armament capable of making a fighter cautious enough to allow our brethren in Fighter Command time to come to our aid.
"For bomb load, the airframe should be capable of carrying a minimum of 500 pounds of munitions. Rack space should be provided for this load to consist of a single bomb of that size, two bombs half that size, or a mixture of smaller bombs as determined necessary by the mission profile.
"We require a communication suite that is capable of broadcast over both RAF and Army comm systems.
"And, finally, we require armoring sufficient to protect the crew, engine, and fuel tanks from small arms and light machine gun fire from the ground."
Air Commodore Digby glanced around the room at his colleagues. "Does anyone have further requirements or specifications to add?"
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Not really. Give me a proper inline 'V' engine over a radial anyday, but then the yanks never did build a decent inline during the war. And after the war they ended up using variants of British designed jet engines so never got the chance to learn.Vann the Red said:
OOC: Just a quick one to formally introduce Proxy to the group. He will be joining us as Mj Gen Donald Keith, Commander of the experimental Motorised Division based at Aldershot. The unit is not an in game piece but his position means he will be involved in army doctrine development and equipment development.
Also, once you lads stop nattering about engines and stuff we can roll on... to important stuff!!!
Dury.
Also, once you lads stop nattering about engines and stuff we can roll on... to important stuff!!!
Dury.
OOC: Proxy, I suspect this'll give us some room to chat since I'm the RAF's Army Air advocate and CAS TraDoc guy. Welcome to the asylum.
Ruddy
Ruddy
OOC: IMO I'd prefer a radial for a dive bomber any day over an inline. Dive bombers will take damage and radials can take that sort of damage.
Ruddy: A Jug fan? There's so many that used the R-2800 though it could be more difficult. Also were you talking about compressability problems concerning speed?
As far as engines:
Wright R-1820
Pratt& Whitney R-1830
Bristol Hercules
Given the FAA's demand for a extremely high powered Radial, this will probably be available a little earlier...maybe
Bristol Centaurus
Dury: This might end up making some of us into resarch teams...
Ruddy: A Jug fan? There's so many that used the R-2800 though it could be more difficult. Also were you talking about compressability problems concerning speed?
As far as engines:
Wright R-1820
Pratt& Whitney R-1830
Bristol Hercules
Given the FAA's demand for a extremely high powered Radial, this will probably be available a little earlier...maybe
Bristol Centaurus
Dury: This might end up making some of us into resarch teams...
OOC: Addy, my favorite American plane of the war was the Jug followed by the Corsair. Nothing else is really even that close. Although Robin Olds certainly made a compelling case for the virtues of the Lightning...
Dury, I'm happy to be a tech team or, later when the shooting starts and promotions come, a tank-buster commander.
Ruddy
Dury, I'm happy to be a tech team or, later when the shooting starts and promotions come, a tank-buster commander.
Ruddy
Admiral Lyons walked in, "Sorry I'm late, I was testing what should be our production variants for the FAA new airgroups. However I also heard from our observer in the meeting that you were interested in a version of the Skua."
Lyons sat down in one of the empty chairs, "I think though that the Skua might not be good enough as it is, and you should be looking for a one-off design. Something designed pefectly for dive bombing, with a slightly more powerful engine, without the extra weight required for naval operations, and maybe a different armament. However you should look for something that you might be able to get soon. Now is the time to set requirements for the next generation of attack aircraft to get what you really want."
"As far as engines go the FAA put out a requirement for a radial with 2500 horsepower to be developed sometime down the line and Britol has named that project Centaurus, however there is an 'interim' design that is a good improvement upon the Perseus called the Hercules, I suspect that that engine might provide the power you want."
Lyons sat down in one of the empty chairs, "I think though that the Skua might not be good enough as it is, and you should be looking for a one-off design. Something designed pefectly for dive bombing, with a slightly more powerful engine, without the extra weight required for naval operations, and maybe a different armament. However you should look for something that you might be able to get soon. Now is the time to set requirements for the next generation of attack aircraft to get what you really want."
"As far as engines go the FAA put out a requirement for a radial with 2500 horsepower to be developed sometime down the line and Britol has named that project Centaurus, however there is an 'interim' design that is a good improvement upon the Perseus called the Hercules, I suspect that that engine might provide the power you want."
OOC:
Hello Proxy, hope you actually get some motorised units to play with. After Leyland worked their fingers to the bone to design them you'd think someone would have proccur some by now? *pokes Durry with a stick*
As for engines. The American ones are out due to being no better, if not slightly worse, than their British equivalents. There were lots of things the Yanks did well in the 1930s, but aero-engines of any flavour weren't one of them.
The Hercules meanwhile is a 14 cylinder twin compared to the 9 cylinder single of the Perseus. It's bigger, heavier and a different shape. Of course it can be adapted, but that means less time and money to do other things.
Given Ruddy's requirements, the extra power seemingly isn't required (for this model anyway). Communications, cannons and armour seemingly are the priorities. With armour probably sorted in the existing Skua airframe fixing those two while de-naval/fightering would keep de Havilland, and a few subcontractors, busy for the length of contract.
Hello Proxy, hope you actually get some motorised units to play with. After Leyland worked their fingers to the bone to design them you'd think someone would have proccur some by now? *pokes Durry with a stick*
As for engines. The American ones are out due to being no better, if not slightly worse, than their British equivalents. There were lots of things the Yanks did well in the 1930s, but aero-engines of any flavour weren't one of them.
The Hercules meanwhile is a 14 cylinder twin compared to the 9 cylinder single of the Perseus. It's bigger, heavier and a different shape. Of course it can be adapted, but that means less time and money to do other things.
Given Ruddy's requirements, the extra power seemingly isn't required (for this model anyway). Communications, cannons and armour seemingly are the priorities. With armour probably sorted in the existing Skua airframe fixing those two while de-naval/fightering would keep de Havilland, and a few subcontractors, busy for the length of contract.
OOC: To quote Ruudy;
"For bomb load, the airframe should be capable of carrying a minimum of 500 pounds of munitions. Rack space should be provided for this load to consist of a single bomb of that size, two bombs half that size, or a mixture of smaller bombs as determined necessary by the mission profile."
500lb/250kg is about par for the course for first gen dive late '30s dive bombers.
"For bomb load, the airframe should be capable of carrying a minimum of 500 pounds of munitions. Rack space should be provided for this load to consist of a single bomb of that size, two bombs half that size, or a mixture of smaller bombs as determined necessary by the mission profile."
500lb/250kg is about par for the course for first gen dive late '30s dive bombers.
OOC: Basically it's going to be a denavalized Skua then. But it'll only be for this generation, there won't be any improvements, certainly not with the Perseus engine.
de Havilland looked around the room.
"Gentlemen can I just confirm what we have decided. Taking the Blackburn Skua as a base we will be re-configuring it away from the fighter/bomber role to a pure dive bomber with an adaptable 500lb bomb load."
Checking his notes to get the priorities right he continued.
"The radio will be improved for air-army co-operation and the armour re-arranged to provide protection from ground fire. The weight saved by removing vestigial fighter/carrier components will be used for heavier cannon armament, assuming a suitable model can be found."
"That only leaves the matter of engines, which I don't believe is a matter of interest to all in the room, beyond certain range and speed requirements."
That comment got a few nods and several rueful smiles.
"So, assuming the above specification is correct I suggest we adjourn for today and those who have an interest in the engines reconvene at a later date."
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OOC: If that spec seems right I think the meeting is done, engine discussion can come later if anyone has a cunning plan that isn't a Perseus but is the same size.
So that leaves Durry to get back to Neville doing more paperwork. Not sure that's 'more important' than talking about engines but he does sulk so if he can't tick his boxes.
"Gentlemen can I just confirm what we have decided. Taking the Blackburn Skua as a base we will be re-configuring it away from the fighter/bomber role to a pure dive bomber with an adaptable 500lb bomb load."
Checking his notes to get the priorities right he continued.
"The radio will be improved for air-army co-operation and the armour re-arranged to provide protection from ground fire. The weight saved by removing vestigial fighter/carrier components will be used for heavier cannon armament, assuming a suitable model can be found."
"That only leaves the matter of engines, which I don't believe is a matter of interest to all in the room, beyond certain range and speed requirements."
That comment got a few nods and several rueful smiles.
"So, assuming the above specification is correct I suggest we adjourn for today and those who have an interest in the engines reconvene at a later date."
---
OOC: If that spec seems right I think the meeting is done, engine discussion can come later if anyone has a cunning plan that isn't a Perseus but is the same size.
So that leaves Durry to get back to Neville doing more paperwork. Not sure that's 'more important' than talking about engines but he does sulk so if he can't tick his boxes.
Admiral Lyons cleared his throat, "Since the upcoming contract is a relatively simple one, I suggest that the RAF personnel come up with a set of requirements for the next generation of air support aircraft. That way the manufacturers can design something new and cutting edge. At least that's my suggestion, since some of the extremely early test on the FAA's next carrier planes look promising."
As the meeting broke up Dylan made his way towards de Havilland. The engineer saw him approach and motioned him over so they could speak privately.
“Mr de Havilland, what I’m about to tell you is classified information and a state secret. The Army may be able to provide you with some additional help on you project. We have in our possession parts of a German light bomber which we are happy for your team to come and examine as part of its work.”
De Havilland looked surprised, and yet eager at the same time. “A Dive Bomber?” Dylan nodded in the affirmative, “How in blazes did you get that?”
Dylan smiled ruefully, “I didn’t say we had a whole bomber, I said we had pieces of one. As for how we got it that is strictly need to know and you don’t need to know to be able to make use of it.”
He reached into his breast pocket, “Here’s my card, contact my office and we’ll organise to have the pieces shipped to a location of your choosing. There’ll be some agreements you’ll have to sign concerning patents and secrecy however I’m sure you’ll have little problem with those.”
With that he turned and left the room. He’d spent too much time on this project already, he only hoped it was time well spent.
“Mr de Havilland, what I’m about to tell you is classified information and a state secret. The Army may be able to provide you with some additional help on you project. We have in our possession parts of a German light bomber which we are happy for your team to come and examine as part of its work.”
De Havilland looked surprised, and yet eager at the same time. “A Dive Bomber?” Dylan nodded in the affirmative, “How in blazes did you get that?”
Dylan smiled ruefully, “I didn’t say we had a whole bomber, I said we had pieces of one. As for how we got it that is strictly need to know and you don’t need to know to be able to make use of it.”
He reached into his breast pocket, “Here’s my card, contact my office and we’ll organise to have the pieces shipped to a location of your choosing. There’ll be some agreements you’ll have to sign concerning patents and secrecy however I’m sure you’ll have little problem with those.”
With that he turned and left the room. He’d spent too much time on this project already, he only hoped it was time well spent.
5 December 1937
Prime Minister’s Office
Neville poured the tea into the two cups and looked at his Foreign Minister. “It’s black with one sugar isn’t it?”
“Yes Neville, thank you.” Neville fixed the tea as required and handed the cup to Eden. He then fixed his own and they settled in the armchairs near the window, he felt it best to keep this discussion informal.
“Now Anthony, these stories I’ve been hearing concerning Austria?”
Anthony sighed and hauled a thick file out of his briefcase. “Neville, the evidence has been building for a while that Hitler is going to push for an Anschluss with Austria. It is a growing campaign both in the German press and with sections of the Austrian political Diaspora and media.”
Neville read through the file as Anthony spoke and nodded his head, “You mean with Austrian Nazi’s I suppose.”
“Yes, and other far right organisations. However there’s also a growing proportion of the ruling elite and general population who look back fondly on the old Hapsburg Empire and see Anschluss with Germany as a means of returning to those times of honour and glory.”
Neville continued to glance through the file, “It makes a deal of economic sense as far as my Treasury officials are concerned. When this was raised some time back it was seen as a positive move. We supported it along with France but Germany wasn’t prepared to confront Italy over it.”
Anthony nodded in time with his Prime Minister, “It’s funny how things change Neville. Mussolini originally wanted to maintain Austria as part of their sphere of influence and a buffer between them and Germany however as the two Fascist leaders have grown closer together that mood has changed. Mussolini is now softening his stance and this is something to worry about. We suddenly have the beginnings of an alternative alliance in central Europe, France is becoming concerned and I believe so should we.”
Neville furrowed his brow and rubbed his chin. Economic sense it may have made but Neville was in the business of promoting a strong British economy, if Eden was right about a Fascist agreement then that may impact on British trade on the continent. Of course, he couldn’t say that to his idealistic colleague. “You see problems on the horizon?”
”Mr Prime Minister,” Neville noted the use of his formal title, “Your Foreign policy has been based on the belief that to ensure peace you need to ensure that our former enemies need to be coerced and trained to act as civilised nations. If Hitler and Mussolini are beginning to conspire together for their own ends then they are being reinforced by each other in inappropriate and counter productive behaviour.”
Neville leaned back and considered what Eden had said. It definitely represented a threat to his stated goals as Prime Minister. “How strong is the evidence of collaboration? We thought they were acting together in Spain but could never prove it, how far can we go on this issue?”
Eden leaned over and pointed towards an index of the file on Neville’s lap, “We have intercepts of high level communications between the two and agents confirm the level of collaboration is highly advanced.”
Neville glanced at the information, he would digest it in detail at a later time. “So what do you suggest our options are?”
Anthony shook his head, “Our options are limited and the Foreign Office is divided on our preferred position. That’s what I want to speak to you about…”
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OOC: You all mock Neville, but I'd like to see you run this country without him. Who would do it instead? Baldwin? McDonald? Atlee? Churchill? Ha, don't make me laugh!
Prime Minister’s Office
Neville poured the tea into the two cups and looked at his Foreign Minister. “It’s black with one sugar isn’t it?”
“Yes Neville, thank you.” Neville fixed the tea as required and handed the cup to Eden. He then fixed his own and they settled in the armchairs near the window, he felt it best to keep this discussion informal.
“Now Anthony, these stories I’ve been hearing concerning Austria?”
Anthony sighed and hauled a thick file out of his briefcase. “Neville, the evidence has been building for a while that Hitler is going to push for an Anschluss with Austria. It is a growing campaign both in the German press and with sections of the Austrian political Diaspora and media.”
Neville read through the file as Anthony spoke and nodded his head, “You mean with Austrian Nazi’s I suppose.”
“Yes, and other far right organisations. However there’s also a growing proportion of the ruling elite and general population who look back fondly on the old Hapsburg Empire and see Anschluss with Germany as a means of returning to those times of honour and glory.”
Neville continued to glance through the file, “It makes a deal of economic sense as far as my Treasury officials are concerned. When this was raised some time back it was seen as a positive move. We supported it along with France but Germany wasn’t prepared to confront Italy over it.”
Anthony nodded in time with his Prime Minister, “It’s funny how things change Neville. Mussolini originally wanted to maintain Austria as part of their sphere of influence and a buffer between them and Germany however as the two Fascist leaders have grown closer together that mood has changed. Mussolini is now softening his stance and this is something to worry about. We suddenly have the beginnings of an alternative alliance in central Europe, France is becoming concerned and I believe so should we.”
Neville furrowed his brow and rubbed his chin. Economic sense it may have made but Neville was in the business of promoting a strong British economy, if Eden was right about a Fascist agreement then that may impact on British trade on the continent. Of course, he couldn’t say that to his idealistic colleague. “You see problems on the horizon?”
”Mr Prime Minister,” Neville noted the use of his formal title, “Your Foreign policy has been based on the belief that to ensure peace you need to ensure that our former enemies need to be coerced and trained to act as civilised nations. If Hitler and Mussolini are beginning to conspire together for their own ends then they are being reinforced by each other in inappropriate and counter productive behaviour.”
Neville leaned back and considered what Eden had said. It definitely represented a threat to his stated goals as Prime Minister. “How strong is the evidence of collaboration? We thought they were acting together in Spain but could never prove it, how far can we go on this issue?”
Eden leaned over and pointed towards an index of the file on Neville’s lap, “We have intercepts of high level communications between the two and agents confirm the level of collaboration is highly advanced.”
Neville glanced at the information, he would digest it in detail at a later time. “So what do you suggest our options are?”
Anthony shook his head, “Our options are limited and the Foreign Office is divided on our preferred position. That’s what I want to speak to you about…”
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OOC: You all mock Neville, but I'd like to see you run this country without him. Who would do it instead? Baldwin? McDonald? Atlee? Churchill? Ha, don't make me laugh!
Anyone at all? Lloyd-George? Yes he is 75, far, far past his prime and probably borderline senile but at least he isn't breath takingly naive and is aware that there is more to leadership than watching the economy.Duritz said:
Good grief no. I was referring to expanding the Empire and bringing the benefits of enlightened Imperial Rule to those unfortunate uncivilised and uncultured people of the world. Like the French.Duritz said:More than... are you a Communist or what?!?